Warren's 350 MAC mid-drive (finally) recumbent

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:17 am

I got my 350 watt MAC front motor, and Infineon controller with 6 (25a) IRFB4110 fets, from cell_man, Paul, the other day. Half way around the world, to my door, in a week and a half. What a world.

So now I need a battery pack. It still appears a Ping is my best choice for reasonable weight/price for low C draw, long endurance riding. The 48 volt, 20 Ah pack is his cheapest per kWh. But this quote has me worried.

"My ping 36v charges to 45-47 v depending on which charger I use. I don't recall exactly what the lvc cut off is, but it's pretty close to 36v. Maybe 34 or 35? So you'd get all 15 ah out of it. Most of the ride is done with the battery at about 40 v."

Since I am planning to run a Stokemonkey-style setup, with gearing limited to standard bike stuff, cadence becomes a concern. I have been figuring 48 volts (3 volts per cell) all along. But it sounds like, at least at the kind of C I will be pulling, the Pings run 10 % higher (3.3 volts per cell).

Ten per cent higher cadence is too much for me....48 volts was already pushing my limit. I know I will have to back off on the throttle setting. My question is this.

Which will be most efficient overall...to run a so-called 48 volt pack at 75% throttle most of the time, or run a so-called 36 volt pack at full throttle most of the time?

And yes...I realize I asked a very similar question before. :-(

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby pdf » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:49 pm

Which will be most efficient overall...to run a so-called 48 volt pack at 75% throttle most of the time, or run a so-called 36 volt pack at full throttle most of the time?


Good question. I run a Stokemonkey myself.
Not sure I have the definitive answer, but using the simulator at ebike.ca, I did the following:
1) picked a random motor and controller
2) found the speed at max efficiency for 36V
3) made the battery 48v and tuned the throttle until I got the max efficiency at the speed found in 2 above.

The efficiency in the second case was virtually the same in both cases, maybe 1% less. Not sure this is the best test, but it's the best I can think of.
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:02 pm

pdf,

"using the simulator at ebike.ca...efficiency in the second case was virtually the same in both cases, maybe 1% less"

So you are saying the model suggests that the 36 volt system at WOT, is at least as efficient as the 48 volt system, at the same speed. That was my guess.

I am sure that some controllers are more efficient than others, but my guess (based on my vast ignorance) was that the little extra heat loss from the higher current of the 36 volt system would be roughly equal to the losses in the FETs.

I suppose if I was trying to run huge power through those little wires the situation would be different. But then the motor, controller, and Ping pack wouldn't be up to that anyway.

Thanks, Warren
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby pdf » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:24 pm

Warren,

Yes, you interpreted my somewhat screwed up message correctly. What I meant to say is
"using the simulator at ebike.ca the efficiency in the second case was virtually the same as that in the first case, maybe 1% less"

What I don't know is how much of the losses you mentioned are modeled and how well. So if there were conditions that are extreme in either case, it would probably not be a valid condition. As long as you are not subjecting the motor to excessive loads, I'd be the simulator results are probably reasonably accurate and the difference between the two senarios is minimal.

The one thing that struck me is that, on my system at least, it is pretty tricky to hold the throttle at a particular setting that is not all on or all off. What I do (because I have a system that works through the cranks) is to find a gear where I am going the correct speed with the trottle pretty much wide open. If I had to go a long way holding the throttle for a particular voltage, it might be tricky. However, the average ebike is not a muscle-bike and small perturbations in wind and grade will make the bike slow down and speed up anyway so even if you manage to hold the trottle in the same place, I would predict you would find the speed going up and down anyway. That is my opinion and worth what you paid for it.
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:21 pm

pdf,

"What I do (because I have a system that works through the cranks) is to find a gear where I am going the correct speed with the trottle pretty much wide open."

Yes. That is what I will be doing.

Thanks, Warren
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:06 pm

Guys,

I'm a little slow...OK, a lot slow. Anyway, I have finally gotten the bike to the point that I am wiring things up. I bought a bunch of Anderson Powerpole 15/30/45 amp connectors, and the tool. I know the hotrod types here think they are too wimpy, but I see Ecospeed, and several others are using them. I don't plan to run more than 15 amps through anything, and the controller limit is 25 amps.

I have several questions for the electronic wizards here. The Infineon controller, from cell_man, has a little red wire from the controller wired to the positive wire coming in from the battery. My understanding is that putting a switch in this wire will allow shutting down the controller. Is this correct?

From the size of the wire, I'd guess it is only turning on the FET's, and is not carrying any real current. Would the smallest spst toggle switch from Radio Shack be sufficient?

I will be putting a 30 amp spade fuse, in an Anderson inline fuse holder. Is this sufficient? Any reason to run the 40 amp that came with it?

This fuse holder setup actually fuses both the positive, and negative lines from the battery. Any pros/cons to running them both?

CA suggests a switch after the fuse, to cut off power to the CA. Would a 20 amp, 125 volt, 3/4 hp, spst switch be sufficient, as long as I don't switch it while the motor is running?

How about just unplugging the Anderson connector? Seems like it works pretty nicely. Would it be up to repeated connecting/disconnecting?

Last question. With the little switch to the controller turned off, would there be any arcing when I plug things up. I've heard on the high voltage systems, you need to put something across the plug to prevent arcing. Will this be necessary with 36 volt, 30 amp Ping pack, and my little controller?

Thanks in advance, Warren
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:41 pm

Warren wrote:I bought a bunch of Anderson Powerpole 15/30/45 amp connectors, and the tool. I know the hotrod types here think they are too wimpy, but I see Ecospeed, and several others are using them. I don't plan to run more than 15 amps through anything, and the controller limit is 25 amps.

They'd be fine for anything under their rating. If you got the 15A version, that's at the limit, but if you got the 30 or 45A contacts, you're well within their limits.

Part of the problem I think some of those having melted PPs are seeing is the very thick wires going into the shells are not allowing the contacts to float inside them, and so they can't make flat parallel contact with the other end. They're forced to some angled contact, so only an edge or even a point is making contact, and the resistance is very high, so they get hot, and melt the shells. As soon as that starts happening, the amount of contact (if any) is a wild guess that probably changes with temperature.


My understanding is that putting a switch in this wire will allow shutting down the controller. Is this correct?

Yes.


Would the smallest spst toggle switch from Radio Shack be sufficient?

Yes. I doubt there is more than a quarter amp on that wire, worst case.

I will be putting a 30 amp spade fuse, in an Anderson inline fuse holder.

If you are sure that you don't want to ever pull more than the 25A controller limit for any length of time, 30A or less would be good. The idea is to fuse just above what your max allowable current should be, so that if it goes above that for any appreciable time it blows and saves your system.

If it's a FET short or motor short causing FET overcurrent, the fuse won't blow in time to save anything inside the controller anyway, so that doesnt' matter, but if it's a wiring short between controller and battery, for instance, or the short inside the controller, it'll save the battery and the wiring between fuse and battery.

Fuse ought to go as close to the battery as possible, so that any shorts to frame or elsewhere would be beyond the fuse.


This fuse holder setup actually fuses both the positive, and negative lines from the battery. Any pros/cons to running them both?

So there are two separate fuses? Theoretically, a short on either line would still blow just one fuse, so there's not really a need for two. But if your battery could theoretically get shorted to the frame at some place other than pack ends (mid-pack, for instance), having a fuse at each end could prevent a lengthy short between that mid-pack point and either end. Without a fuse on each end, the mid-pack short to the unfused end would go unchecked until something else burned thru.


CA suggests a switch after the fuse, to cut off power to the CA. Would a 20 amp, 125 volt, 3/4 hp, spst switch be sufficient, as long as I don't switch it while the motor is running?

Is that 20A at AC or DC? Need to be sure you rate it at DC, at the DC voltage you're using. The current rating ought to be higher than the max current you're going to be pulling thru the switch.

How about just unplugging the Anderson connector? Seems like it works pretty nicely. Would it be up to repeated connecting/disconnecting?

THey're made for lots of cycles, and are cheap enough to replace when you do wear one out. I disconnect/reconnect my PP and MP andersons for charging each time, so that's a minimum of one cycle per day. I also disconnect my 12V system's PPs at each stop on a trip, as I have no switch on that system, and don't want someone to accidentally turn on one of my lights and leave it on, killing the 12V battery. (I should put in a switch but time hasn't permitted).


With the little switch to the controller turned off, would there be any arcing when I plug things up.
[/quote]
Probably, but you may not notice it.
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:49 am

amberwolf,

" If you got the 15A version, that's at the limit, but if you got the 30 or 45A contacts, you're well within their limits."

Actually, the contacts are the same on all three. It is only the crimp lug, where the wire goes in, that is different. I got a bag of 15's, and a bag of 30's. Will probably order a bag of 45's, as the 10 gauge wire on the fuse is a real squeeze into the 30 amp crimp.

And yes, they have a double fuse.

http://www.powerwerx.com/fuse-holders-f ... gauge.html

The wires are tightly zip tied together, probably to avoid that contact twisting you mentioned. I will be doing this to all my connections also, to hopefully avoid twisting.

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:56 am

Dang! I just found these.

http://www.andersonpower.com/products/p ... rpole.html

They would eliminate any concern over twisting, and keep all the other neat Powerpole features. 30 amp rating would be plenty for me.
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:49 pm

Are those new? I don't recall ever seeing them in my many explorations of their site.

And it appears you're right about the current rating. My bad. :(
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:48 pm

Guys,

I have finally gotten my mid-drive recumbent together. I have ridden it on four, hilly, 16 mile rides. Spinning the freewheeling hub over is hardly noticeable. Two of those rides were done with 24 pounds of dumbbells strapped under the seat to simulate the battery pack. Only slowed me down about a mile per hour average. Mechanically, everything works great, and I've got all the wiring done. I mounted a 10 amp, 125 volt mini, spst toggle switch in the end plate of the controller, wired into the little red wire to power up the controller. I shortened up the phase wires, and Hall wires, since it is only about a foot from the mid-drive to the controller. I used Anderson Powerpoles on the phase wires, and from the controller to the Cycle Analyst, and CA to fuse, and to future battery.

Before I spring for a mega-dollar pack, I want to put the bike on my stationary trainer, and check out the various electrical functions. I am thinking of running jumper wires from the batteries in our two cars, in series, for 24 volts to power it up. Will the motor and controller function on 24 volts?

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby dumbass » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:45 am

Warren wrote:Guys,

I have finally gotten my mid-drive recumbent together. I have ridden it on four, hilly, 16 mile rides. Spinning the freewheeling hub over is hardly noticeable. Two of those rides were done with 24 pounds of dumbbells strapped under the seat to simulate the battery pack. Only slowed me down about a mile per hour average. Mechanically, everything works great, and I've got all the wiring done. I mounted a 10 amp, 125 volt mini, spst toggle switch in the end plate of the controller, wired into the little red wire to power up the controller. I shortened up the phase wires, and Hall wires, since it is only about a foot from the mid-drive to the controller. I used Anderson Powerpoles on the phase wires, and from the controller to the Cycle Analyst, and CA to fuse, and to future battery.

Before I spring for a mega-dollar pack, I want to put the bike on my stationary trainer, and check out the various electrical functions. I am thinking of running jumper wires from the batteries in our two cars, in series, for 24 volts to power it up. Will the motor and controller function on 24 volts?

Warren


I'm sure not an expert but that on.off switch yo4 installed isn't really an on/off switch. o my knowledge it will only turn off your control not the actual controller. I think you need to put a switch directly inline between the pack and the controller.

Y64r 2 car batteries will work fin for our testing (assuming you remove then from the cars first)/ Bob
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:05 pm

Bob,

"To my knowledge it will only turn off your control not the actual controller. I think you need to put a switch directly inline between the pack and the controller."

Yes. I believe it prevents the FET's from being switched on. Keeps curious hands from getting in trouble. I will be unplugging the pack, when not on a ride.

"Your 2 car batteries will work fine for our testing"

Actually, Paul (cell_man) informs me that the 36 volt controller has a 31 volt LVC. I will be commandeering several of my neighbor's lawn tractor batteries this weekend. Nice to have good neighbors. :-)

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby dumbass » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:31 pm

Sorry somehow I was thinking you had dropped down to a 24v system somewhere alone the way....My Bad! Looks like you'll need a buddies car as well then.....LOL
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:05 pm

Folks,

OK. This puppy is done. And I love it. I know that most of you guys are not the aerobic type. But for those, like me, who would rather bicycle than drive any vehicle, this is the dream machine.

Some specs:

Late model (1991-2001) "Iowa built" Linear LWB recumbent, rebuilt for the umpteenth time. This time as a 26/26 OSS bike. 31.5#

Cell_Man, 350 watt, MAC, front, geared hub motor. 8.25#

Cell_Man, Infineon, 6 FET, 25 amp controller .5#

Li Ping, 36 volt, 30 amp, LiFePo4 pack. 25#

Li Ping 5 amp charger. 2#

Stand alone Cycle Analyst. .5#

Aluminum mid-motor mount, chain, chainring. 3.75#

Battery mount rack, and pannier. 2#

Total weight, with 26x1.25 slicks, and Stan's latex sealant. 73.5#

15-53 motor drive...left side, 50 to 11-32, 8 speed...right side. All components Deore LX, or better.

All at my usual 70-80 rpm cadence:

I see about 350 watts on the flat running in sixth, at 20-21 mph, and up steep dirt roads, in first, at 9-10 mph.

In eighth gear I am running 28-32 mph, and about 500 watts, on the level.

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby pdf » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:05 pm

Warren wrote:Folks,

OK. This puppy is done. And I love it. I know that most of you guys are not the aerobic type. But for those, like me, who would rather bicycle than drive any vehicle, this is the dream machine.


Put up pics when you have them. I love my mid-drive upright (Stokemonkey). Ride it nearly everyday. I did fix up a high-turn (2810) hub motor for my son and am amazed at how well it performs on hills at 72 volts though. On the other hand, it is really tempting not to pedal at all on a powerful hub setup. It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:14 am

pdf,

I will put up pix soon.

Yes, mopeds, and scooters are great fun. But we are all inherently conservative of our energy...lazy. Ultimately we end up with coal fired SUVs. A human/electric hybrid is Methadone for energy junkies.

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:55 am

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:21 pm

Unfortunately it will not allow non-registered guests to see them. :(

Posting pics here is easy, if you are attaching them like they appear to be there:

When posting, there is a section of the page called "Upload attachment", below the box you type your post in. Use the Browse button to find the file on your computer, select it, and click OK. Then click Add the file button on the posting page. The popup will upload it and let you know when it's done (by going away).
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:17 pm

Amberwolf,

Thanks. Now I have to figure out how to shrink the file. Too big for this site.

Up to 285 miles now. Did 37 miles in overcast ,53 degree weather today. Voltage was down about a half a volt from the 70-80 degree weather we have been having. Still averaged 22.4 mph. :-)

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:48 am

If you use Windows, just open the file in Paint, then use this key sequence:
Ctrl-A
Ctrl-W
type 25 in each of the first two boxes (for 25% of original size. Use a different number if you want a different final size)
click OK
File-Save As
type in the filename you want (don't save as the same file name or you destroy your original)
and pick the file type (defaults to whatever it started as, usually that's fine)
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:30 pm

Thanks Amberwolf. Here goes.
Attachments
pix eperiment.JPG
pix ex 2.JPG
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:15 am

Well, the good news is the resized pix did save small enough to upload and view successfully, but the bad news is that there must be something wrong with your original pix if they have that much whitespace in them (there shouldn't be *any*).

I edited the whitespace out and reposted them below, without any other resizing:
side.jpg
(180.47 KiB) Downloaded 3 times


file.jpg
(209.89 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby Warren » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:23 am

Amberwolf,

Thanks. I have 325 miles on now. I will have most of next week off. I hope to do an 80 mile ride Monday...calling for sunny and 80 degrees.

Since I have been riding with the broken pedelec sensor, I have decided to take it off. As a motor vehicle operator, I feel like a boor blowing stop signs, which I always did on my bike. I shift into low before stopping, and a little throttle makes getting the pedal into position for my foot a lot easier.

The only problem I have now is some EMF interference messing up my maximum speed reading on the CA. I tried shielding part of the controller-to-motor cable with aluminum foil. That seemed to help. I went about ten miles before it messed up again. It usually goes to 600+ mph!

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Re: mid-drive questions

Postby amberwolf » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:36 pm

With my SA CA, I had an intermittently broken wire (thanks to my dogs) in the speedo cable that caused a similar problem. You might want to recheck the speedo wire. Put a continuity meter across it's CA end, and a magnet on the sensor end to force it's circuit closed. Wiggle the wire around along it's length and if the buzzing stops at all you have found the problem.
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