StudEbiker's E-Bike-E build- ride vid pg. 7.

[StudEbiker]

LI-ghtcycle wrote:Well, since you are getting a cyclone, some of them already have a dual freewheel set-up as I described, maybe depending on which one you get it has a different "gear head" that allows for this, and if yours doesn't, then it could be a matter of getting a separate gear head that does.

Here is a gear calculator that really works well:

http://jimsitton.net/ratiocalc/

you can always backwards calc. the kv of the motor as long as you know what speed it should produce in a given wheel at a given voltage with the gearing.

The calc I gave you a link to allows you to put up to 3 stages of reduction as well as motor speed, tire size and individual gears of both the drive (motor) gears and the driven (jack shaft or wheel gears).

I saw somewhere that had the kv of the cyclone motors, I want to say it was around 75kv, but I'm not certain.

Not getting a Cyclone, it's a 300w BMC motor that is used in Currie/Lashout bikes. MrBill, who has done some good testing of these motors, told me this morning he thinks the Kv is between 131-135.

[wildharemtbkr]

The currie/lashout drive is what I am using. The kv of 135 sounds about right. kv x volts = motor rpm. I am asuming 24v is that right?
So 135x24=3240. Times that by about 80% which is your operating rpm = 3240x.80=2592rpm. Now that needs reduced down to your pedal speed which is usually about 80 rpm. On mine I geared the pedal speed up by about 2.8:1 so 46 tooth crank sprocket driving a 16 tooth freewheel (now the pedals won't turn when the motor is running). So 80x2.8=224rpm at the jackshaft. My motor is connected to a planetary gear that reduces it by 4.7:1 so 2592/4.7=551 That drives a 19 tooth sprocket (#25) with a one way bearing in it (now the motor won't turn when I am pedalling) That turns a 54 tooth sprocket (#25) which reduces it another 2.8:1. 551/2.8=196 right close to the 224 that my pedals turn the shaft, that turns a 21 tooth cog fixed to the shaft(bike chain), which turns the rear wheel and all the gears. (in pratice I ran 36 volts with better effects). So the problems I had are the one way bearing is to small, and it needs to be in the 54 tooth sprocket to not turn the #25 chain when I am pedalling without the motor. It is still a bicycle, I like to pedal. The other problem is taking up the slack in the freewheel when using the motor whrr-clonk didn't like that. And the planetary and chain make quite a racket. So without the one way bearing your pedals turn all the gear-reduction and then the motor at 3000 rpm which is why you need the one way or 2nd freewheel.

[StudEbiker]

That is some really helpful info. Thank you. I have another question for you though. I can't see very well from your pictures how the large #25 sprocket is attached to the backing plate (the same plate the motor is attached to). It might be helpful to see a closer picture of that.

It seems like this guy has built something similar to what I have in mind, but I still need to find a way for attaching this jackshaft to the backing plate so that it can rotate. Probably a very simple thing for those with experience, but I don't know what I would need to do that.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/jackshaft/jackshaft.htm

[wildharemtbkr]

That first shimano freehub would work awesome!! Have Luke broach you 2 freewheels, bolt 1 to a #25 sprocket which the motor will drive, the cranks will turn the 2nd one, and then put a single speed cog to drive the rear wheel!! Use a bracket to bolt the motor, bike E and axle together, the axle would need supports on both sides, really quite easy!! I would get a curry planetary drive to hook the motor to. http://www.evdeals.com/USPD%20Drive%20Parts.htm That is my drive pretty much. I know it is hard to figure out how it goes together. I bought mine used and took it apart. Here is the planetary alone http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-st ... EAR/1.html

[StudEbiker]

Yep, that sounds like the way I was thinking that first freehub shaft would work too. Do you think there is any way to make the planetary work with out having to buy the expensive housing from EVDeals?? The planetary is so cheap it feels ridiculous to pay $200 for that housing! As far as attaching the shaft on both sides could it be a bracket shaped like this [ with some dropouts cut into it, if so then it seems like I can kinda see now how it will all come together.

[wildharemtbkr]

I bought mine used for $50 for the whole bike. Yes that bracket would work perfect. Ya for $200 I would buy a schumaker drive, 2 reduction with the freewheels and sprockets done. It would be about $400 I think, attach an rc motor and your good. I want to make or have made a housing that would hold 2 of the planetaries, they are $55 from the manufacter, one cheap one, one from them, with a shaft with 2 bearings, a one way with the freewheel and sprocket mounted to it. download/file.php?id=32090

[flyinmonkie]

That is some really helpful info. Thank you. I have another question for you though. I can't see very well from your pictures how the large #25 sprocket is attached to the backing plate (the same plate the motor is attached to). It might be helpful to see a closer picture of that.

I you were replying to me, the #25 sprocket is a 90 tooth sprocket. You can get it online from most scooter part stores electric scooter parts or TNC scooters. It screws on to the same thread a s freewheel. I used freewheel adapters from Choppers US, but they have a13mm ID and it is hard to find a shaft for them. I had to have one turned down. Matt (recumpence) sells freewheel adapters with, I believe, 1/2 inch ID. THen you can just get a shaft from McMaster Carr. I have seen several people use a bike stem to hold the bearings and the jackshaft and attach it to the bike. Probably won't work for you as there is no tube on the bike E. It wouldn't be hard to make up a bracket to hold the bearings and the jackshaft though. I just had some tube welded to the plate the motor is bolted to and had the ends milled to fit my bearings. I have used a 16 tooth freewheel on the other side of the shaft another freewheel adapter.

Clay

[StudEbiker]

Boy do I feel dumb. I thought I would get started pulling out the epoxy and wires from the controller area of the motor last night and thought that the little plastic piece that the halls are attached to was epoxy and promptly went about trying to pry it out with a screwdriver. So I pulled two of the halls out of place, I didn't break any of the wires, so it may be possible to put them back into place, but I mangled 'em up pretty good. On the positive note I did figure out a great way for heating the epoxy for removal. I set the motor on top of a hot plate and just let it slowly warm up till the epoxy softened and started pulling it out. It really works pretty well. If I can't get these halls back in place I may try running the motor sensorless and see how that works out. If it seems that this motor is beyond being salvaged because of my limited expertise then I will probably either go with a Koll or 600w BMC. I figured the good thing about starting with this motor was it was cheap and I could at least get my setup all done and if I wanted to switch to a larger motor later it would be a simple switch. Here's some photo evidence of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

pulledhall.JPG (106.41 KiB) Viewed 1474 times

pulledhall2.JPG (176.24 KiB) Viewed 1474 times

[StudEbiker]

Okay, after the learning experience with the 300w BMC, I have decided to go with a 400w Kollmorgen. I found one on Ebay NIB for $58.50 shipped. I think the Koll will be a better motor and was originally the one I had hoped to use anyway, so I can just chalk the halls fiasco up to experience. It seems like running these Koll motors from an ext. controller is the preferred way to run them, and I think initially I may want to use the 36v Headway pack that is currently on the TF bike so using an ext. controller will be required. The motor can get quite thin after removing the built in controller too which is nice.

[StudEbiker]

Not much to update, but just wanting to post something. I got the Koll motor in and it sure is a sweet little motor! It even smells good. Anyway, now I am trying to decide with setting it up to run off the internal controller at around 24v for now and save sum bux, or go ahead and get an Ecrazyman controller and go for 36v. If I go with 36V I will probably use the Headway pack I am already using so I wouldn't have to buy a new battery pack. However, once I get the Bike E goig I am probably going to sell the TF that the Headway pack is on right now and it is pretty well integrated into that bike so I am reluctant to strip it off the bike. I see where Cell_Man is selling some good packs, so I may go that route instead. Due to poverty and the tax man this build is probably going to go really slow, but I am trying to find some things to sell so I can keep the tax man happy and still have some money to spend on this project. On a side note, anyone interested in a 300W BMC motor with a blown controller and jacked hall sensors? I'll sell it to you cheap!

Koll1.JPG (186.17 KiB) Viewed 1474 times

On another side note, wow, there has been an explosion of Bike E and Revive projects on ES the past couple of weeks!!

[StudEbiker]

FedEx brought some goodies today.

[recumpence]

Awesome! I run those on my yellow trike.

Hmm, I bet I will have my wife's Revive running first.

Matt

[StudEbiker]

recumpence wrote:Hmm, I bet I will have my wife's Revive running first.

That's a safe bet if there ever was one!

[StudEbiker]

I have been trying to source some of the individual Currie Drive parts and thought that I would keep a log in the thread of where I have found certain parts as cheaply as I could.

The planetary is avaialble @ allelectronics.com for $9.50+$7.00 shipping. http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-st ... EAR/1.html

PacificAveCycles on Ebay periodically lists some Currie drive parts. I was able to source a bare planetary housing from them for $25+$5 shipping. http://myworld.ebay.com/pacificavecycle ... 4340.l2559

One way roller bearings are available on Ebay and the part #s are: RC-081208 for the 1/2" bearing and HF-1216 for the 12mm bearing.

Matex.com has the splined output shaft that is needed for $10+shipping. The part # is 75-907.

Heavy duty #25 chain is available through electricscooterparts.com (http://www.electricscooterparts.com/chain.html). I have been told that a stock Currie uses 70 links.

As I find more of the parts I will include the source in this post. If anyone knows where to get Currie Drive parts that I haven't listed yet for cheap, please include it in this thread.

[StudEbiker]

Had a day off and some nice weather so I got to play with the Bike E some today. The cardboard is a mock up of how I plan to mount the motor. There will be another plate on the drive side of the bike with the jackshaft running between them and the freewheel (to the cranks) and the fixed gear (to the rear wheel) will run on the outside of that plate. I am really having fun with this build and am looking forward to getting it going.

rollingmock.JPG (235.24 KiB) Viewed 726 times

[StudEbiker]

I've still been trying to come up with a good name for this bike and it occurred to me that the Bike E company made models CT, AT, RX, FX, E2, NX and RoadE, but they never made a GT as in Grand Tourer. The GT designation fits right in for what I have in mind for this bike. A nice comfortable cruiser well suited for long trips. So I think it has now become the world's first E-Bike-E GT. With the trailer the bike is 10'6" long It's the Cadillac of CLWB recumbents.

wtrailer.JPG (211.39 KiB) Viewed 575 times

[StudEbiker]

Okay, so my drawing skillz suck. No need to tell me, trust me I know. Hopefully though this diagram will be enough to explain what I'm doing and maybe get a few questions answered. When I first drew this diagram I was thinking of using a 5/8" jackshaft, but I have since gone to a 1/2", not that it makes much difference for my questions. Here are my questions:

1.) If you look at an earlier picture in this build, you will see the cardboard mock up of how the plate will be mounted on the frame. I am planning on putting three bolts through the frame and the plates to hold the plates in position. I am wondering what thickness metal (and what type of metal) I will need to keep the plates from flexing. The bottom of the plates will be support crosswise by three bolts to add support and reduce flex as well. Can I use aluminum, or is steel the better option? The size of the plates are 10"x7". Is 1/8" enough? Steel or aluminum?

2.) I am using a 1/2" freewheel adapter for the 16t freewheel. The FW adapter has two set screws. One of those is for screwing into the key way to keep it from spinning on the shaft. I am a little unsure of what to do with the other one. Do I put a hole in the shaft a little larger than the setscrew to keep the adapter from moving laterally on the shaft? Does this take the place of a collar lock in this application?

3.) Speaking of collar locks, what about the motor side of the mount. Is the compression of the jackshaft in the bearing enough to keep the shaft from moving, or will I need to put a collar lock on the end?

I guess that's all my questions for now. I'll probably think of some more later though. Thanks.

middrivediag 001.jpg (38.76 KiB) Viewed 575 times

[StudEbiker]

Well, I think I have most of the issues with the jackshaft sorted out now. The outside threaded part is a bottom bracket bearing cup with a 1/2" collar lock put in the hollow part of the bearing cup. I will have a buddy weld the collar lock to the bottom bearing cup then use a track cog to run the chain back to the rear wheel.

jackshaft1.JPG (155.25 KiB) Viewed 575 times

jackshaft2.JPG (142.81 KiB) Viewed 575 times

[StudEbiker]

Starting to get the Bike put back together and get the fit right and put some new cables and such on it.

The seat needed covering so I took it to a local upholstery shop and had it covered with the type of material they use for motorcycle seats, very stretchy and durable. No seams needed for a good fit.

seat1.JPG (168.79 KiB) Viewed 575 times

[dontsendbubbamail]

Okay, so my drawing skillz suck. No need to tell me, trust me I know. Hopefully though this diagram will be enough to explain what I'm doing and maybe get a few questions answered. When I first drew this diagram I was thinking of using a 5/8" jackshaft, but I have since gone to a 1/2", not that it makes much difference for my questions. Here are my questions:

1.) If you look at an earlier picture in this build, you will see the cardboard mock up of how the plate will be mounted on the frame. I am planning on putting three bolts through the frame and the plates to hold the plates in position. I am wondering what thickness metal (and what type of metal) I will need to keep the plates from flexing. The bottom of the plates will be support crosswise by three bolts to add support and reduce flex as well. Can I use aluminum, or is steel the better option? The size of the plates are 10"x7". Is 1/8" enough? Steel or aluminum?

2.) I am using a 1/2" freewheel adapter for the 16t freewheel. The FW adapter has two set screws. One of those is for screwing into the key way to keep it from spinning on the shaft. I am a little unsure of what to do with the other one. Do I put a hole in the shaft a little larger than the setscrew to keep the adapter from moving laterally on the shaft? Does this take the place of a collar lock in this application?

3.) Speaking of collar locks, what about the motor side of the mount. Is the compression of the jackshaft in the bearing enough to keep the shaft from moving, or will I need to put a collar lock on the end?

I guess that's all my questions for now. I'll probably think of some more later though. Thanks.

middrivediag 001.jpg

1. I would use a composit of 1/2" plywood and 1/8" Al. If you don't want to use wood then 3/8" Al is the thinest I would go.

2. Use all the setscrews that they give you and divit the shaft. The FW adapter can act as a locking collar. If the spacing between the FW adapter and the bearing on the mounting plate is more then about 1/16" use washers to close the gap.

3. You need another locking collar on the outside of the other end of the shaft. I am assuming you are using flanged bearings inserted from the outside side of the mounting plate. What you don't want is a locking collar pushing on a bearing in a direction that will pop it out of the mounting plate.

Bubba

[StudEbiker]

dontsendbubbamail wrote:1. I would use a composit of 1/2" plywood and 1/8" Al. If you don't want to use wood then 3/8" Al is the thinest I would go.

2. Use all the setscrews that they give you and divit the shaft. The FW adapter can act as a locking collar. If the spacing between the FW adapter and the bearing on the mounting plate is more then about 1/16" use washers to close the gap.

3. You need another locking collar on the outside of the other end of the shaft. I am assuming you are using flanged bearings inserted from the outside side of the mounting plate. What you don't want is a locking collar pushing on a bearing in a direction that will pop it out of the mounting plate.

Bubba

Thank you for answering. Okay, that's pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I am going to use a flanged bearing on the plate closest to the freewheel adapter, but on the other end I thought one of these might work so I won't have a big collar lock sticking out (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT). Wow, 3/8" AL seems really thick. What if I went with steel?

[dontsendbubbamail]

1. I would use a composit of 1/2" plywood and 1/8" Al. If you don't want to use wood then 3/8" Al is the thinest I would go.

2. Use all the setscrews that they give you and divit the shaft. The FW adapter can act as a locking collar. If the spacing between the FW adapter and the bearing on the mounting plate is more then about 1/16" use washers to close the gap.

3. You need another locking collar on the outside of the other end of the shaft. I am assuming you are using flanged bearings inserted from the outside side of the mounting plate. What you don't want is a locking collar pushing on a bearing in a direction that will pop it out of the mounting plate.

Bubba

Thank you for answering. Okay, that's pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I am going to use a flanged bearing on the plate closest to the freewheel adapter, but on the other end I thought one of these might work so I won't have a big collar lock sticking out (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT). Wow, 3/8" AL seems really thick. What if I went with steel?

You could go with steel if width is that important to you. It would make getting the press fit dead on for the bearing on the FW side more important. The thicker AL would give you more surface are for the JB weld if the hole is a little too large. That bearing on ebay looks a little on the low end to me. It is cheap enough that it will not hurt the wallet if it doesn't work out. It would be easier to fabricate if you used the ebay style bearing on both sides.

Bubba

[recumpence]

I pretty much agree with what has been said.

If the bearing hole is only a few thousandths too big, you can use blue Loctite to hole the bearing in place. Any more and JB weld is your best bet.

You could go down to 1/4 inch aluminum plate, but that depends on how much plate you are using. If the plate is relatively wide, it will work. The drive unit on my first recumbent is 1/4 inch plate. However, 1/4 inch plate will flex more easily. 3/8 is the thickness of the motor faceplate on my reduction units because those plates are not very wide.

I would run a thin shim between the FW adaptor and the bearing as Bubby mentioned (washers). I stock them for that very purpose. You can get a bag of thin shims from McMaster for a few dollars and use the number you need to shim the FW adaptor to the perfect alignment.

Matt

[StudEbiker]

Thanks for the info. The width of the setup is a concern for chain line. If I get too wide then the chain line between the front sprocket and the FW is going to be off. I think the chain line to the rear will be more tolerant because of the derailleur, but the wider the plates, the more the chainline will be pushed out from where it was originally. If I can use 1/8"steel then this would be just about perfect for me. The size of the plates on each side are going to be aprox. 10"x7" with 1 3/4" overlapping and secured to the square frame at the top and use three bolts at the bottom using a spacers over the bolts the width of the box between the plates so the bolts can be torqued.

[StudEbiker]

It's starting to look like a bike again. I have it all put back together for regular riding and have done a few upgrades. Better brakes, different brake levers to accommodate the Magura throttle, and I found some fenders on Craigslist this week too. I also added a 52 tooth chain ring to the front. Now I can either ride the stock 46 or switch by hand to the 52. Once it goes electric it will spend most of the time on the 52. Small handlebars! I'm going to have to get creative to have a bike computer and a light on the bars, and forget about using the stock drink holder mounts. That TOTALLY isn't going to happen. I have a couple of ideas though. The bike is a real pleasure to ride. SUPER comfortable, I just can't wait for pedaling to be optional.

onroad.JPG (243.45 KiB) Viewed 575 times

handlebars.JPG (188.86 KiB) Viewed 575 times