TONARO Pedelec Kits

[Starson]

Hello All,

Ok, so here is something I think is really interesting. Looking at the Hill Climbing bicycles that R.J. Martin http://www.electricbikedistributor.com and http://www.hightekbikes.com/midmntpics.html sell, they appear to be rebranded Catic bicycles, http://www.caticgz.com/details.php?fdProduct_id=3270 The original bicycles appear to be Tornaro brand bicycles, and the motor is fitted to a special frame, which doesn't have a bottom bracket crank. So makes the motor pretty usless if you buy one as is, and try to fit it to a regular frame. But ...

I followed the trail and did more research on Google, and came acrosse this interesting website http://www.eastsunworld.com/es-pedelec-kits , which claim to have developed a kit using the Tornaro motor (Catic), which can fit regular bicycle frames.

So I emailed them ...

Hello Yuki,

I would like more information about your Pedelic Kits. I belong to an electric bicycle forum, and there would be interest in the TONARO Pedelec Kit.

Your webpage indicates that this kit will fit ”normal bikes” and that ”no special tools” are required. How is this achieved, without a special frame or special tools?

What is the price of the kit with battery and without battery? Do you have a list of all included parts in the kit?

Thank You,
Gary Williams

--
And got this response ...


Dear Gary,

Thank you for your interest.You can check the fitting process from this link then you will know on our pedelec kit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I31YTrAprx4

It is easy to fit within half an hour.

The specification id the list of all inclued parts on our conversion kit.All our parts are chosen the No.1 on CHina or all the world.

The price on our pedelec kit within battery is US $ 870 per set.We don't sell seperate.So we don't sell without battery.


There is some points on our special and unique supplier which are different from other suppliers:

1.We had INTERNATIONAL PATENT on our PEDELEC KIT.

2.Our Pedelec kit is the No.1 Central Drive System conversion kits for normal bike.

3.Our Central Drive Technology which apart from YAMAHA, has gained the support of SANYO, PANASONIC and many other manufacturers. Our biggest advantage on our central drive technology:1. High torque. 2 Low and central weight point.3. Resistant Force.(The details on advantage you can check the attachment)

4.We have the patent of the central-drive system and the EN15194：2009 certifications

5.Our Electric Vehicle is the technology founder in China, after 5 years of R&D and 4-year market test, our system has become the most mature Central Drive System in China.

6.Thei PEDELEC KIT is our new product.We take research on it more than 10 years.Itis the most potential products nowdays.

7.All our equipment and fitting on conversion kit and e-bike are according the Europe standard.(You can check the fitting in conversion kit on attachment).We have CE certification on our conversion kit.

8.Best battery.Our battery comes with a 36v 10ah (360wh) lithium battery. It is Li-Polymer (10AH36V).

9.Unique motor. ES electric bikes have a unique mid mounted motor. This clever design allows us to achieve more climbing power with lower battery use. It also allows the full use of the gears under power which is a great advantage over other hub driven electric bikes. The power is controlled by using the twist throttle.

10.patent crank drive system. ES electric bicycles has a patented crank drive system that produces up to 90Nm of torque whereas most common hub drives would struggle to produce more than 40Nm. This gives East Sun electric bicycles a big advantage when climbing hills, making it perfect for the local terrain.

11.ES electric bicycles are manufactured an ISO 9001:2008 quality system, ensuring consistently good products built to our demanding standards. We have CE and EN15194 certified.East to import under legal.

If any question,please feel free to contact us.

Best regards,

Yuki

I followed the link in the email to Utube and saw a quick animated video, which shows how the kit attaches to a regualar frame. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I31YTrAprx4 So what do you all think???

Gary

[Hillhater]

Interesting !
I posted earlier about these drive packages/bikes viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26127
thanks for tracking down the manufacturer.
I wonder just how much that motor could handle ?

EDIT;
watching that youtube vid again, it is obvious that their "Pedalec" system is a chain drive to the existing bottom bracket,...which is not the same as their other motorised bottom bracket drive which is direct gear driven acording to this diagram from the Aseako site ..
So it would apear they have two different drive units. ?

[mabman]

What I am seeing is that it drives the bb spindle and allows for the use of multiple chainrings which any of the other similar systems like Panasonic, Yamaha and the new Bosch are unable to do. This would give the Tonaro system a big advantage in available range of gearing. It only lists a 200w motor but that cannister motor looks like it could be easily made more powerful and probably they don't currently because of the Chinese, Japanese and EU regs whereas a US spec one could be more watts perhaps? $870 with a battery is really not that bad a price actually and I am sure alot less than the Bosch and the others which are not ever going to be retrofittable.

[Starson]

Shoot! Reading over my original post, I noticed that an attachment had been included listing specifications for the Kit. Went back and converted it from spreadsheet format to HTML. Here it is ...


Specification For E-BIKE SYSTEM SET

PART NAME MODEL Description color

Crank/chain ring silver/CP
BB parts ED
BB axe
reducer w/controller inside
reducer bracket
battery carrier ZG-wally
Chain Z72 1/2“*3/32”*114L brone
FreeWheel LY3008 13-30T 8 index black
Battery Li-batter 36V 10AH
Charge 36V, intelligent， black
Motor Brushless ,HUB 36V 250W, w/line 85CM Siver
Controller Brushless 36V1,2,3lever, ,15±1A restrict,
indicator JT790
sensor Hall w/black plastic disc
brake lever 47P, brake stop function TRETRO BRAND
F/light 36V,w/line
R/light XH0309 w/5# battery
extended wire
SpeedLimit 25km
Switch JT790 black
manual english

Gary

[Hillhater]

What I am seeing is that it drives the bb spindle......

Yes, the ones fitted to dedicated Ebikes appear to drive the spindle direct ( ref ..diagram above)
.. but the pedalec "add on" unit shown in the video .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I31YTrAprx4 .. clearly shows a short chain drive from the gearbox to the BBracket chainring.
both systems have their pro's and cons' depending on your needs.
But i still dont know if the "dedicated" spindle drive unit is available retail though ?

[Starson]

What I am seeing is that it drives the bb spindle......

Yes, the ones fitted to dedicated Ebikes appear to drive the spindle direct ( ref ..diagram above)
.. but the pedalec "add on" unit shown in the video .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I31YTrAprx4 .. clearly shows a short chain drive from the gearbox to the BBracket chainring.
both systems have their pro's and cons' depending on your needs.
But i still dont know if the "dedicated" spindle drive unit is available retail though ?

Yes it is sold at one of their partners (resellers) in Europe. Here it is with Google Translate ... http://translate.google.com/translate?t ... ike.com%2F Go to the PARTS link on the lefthand sidebar. Howerer, the original motor requires a special frame to mount the drive unit. There is no way to adapt it to regular bike frame, unless you are a bicycle genius, which there are many of here at ES. By the way, I'm not!!! LOL

Here's another European Link selling just the motor itself and parts ... http://www.powerpedals.co.uk/accessories

It does look like the motor on the Tonaro Bicycles do directly drive the spindle, and that the New Kit has a short chain from the motor to the spindle driving it. But I'll bet its the very same motor, just adapted differently. And whether the original on the Tonaro Bicycle or the Kit, both are still driving the spindle. it seems as Mabman noted that the advantage would be in adaptability of the gearing. Who knows if the whole think actually works??? And who knows if any part breaks, if they would supply the parts? I just know that previously there had been some interest in whether this system would ever be adapted in a kit form.

Gary

[Whiplash]

Hmm looks interesting! I wonder if it would handle more power or possibly adapt an RC motor to it! Imagine a nice little astro turning that baby!

[Whiplash]

Will these companies sell to the us? I wish I had the extra cash to just buy stuff like this sometimes! Just to study it!

[Starson]

Hmm looks interesting! I wonder if it would handle more power or possibly adapt an RC motor to it! Imagine a nice little astro turning that baby!

You never know what one thing might lead to another. What I'm envisioning is that hopefully the interest is piqued for the two vendors who are already selling the Tonaro bikes in the U.S. I know that I previously read somewhere that one of them at one point was pondering the possiblilty of a kit. So it seems to me that they already would have an understanding of the motor and have access to parts to replace if needed. If it was tested out as a working, viable solution, then having a base of operation in the U.S. would make it a lot more convienient then going back & forth between China and North America for potential buyers. Is anybody listening??? Ha Ha!

Gary

[Starson]

Will these companies sell to the us? I wish I had the extra cash to just buy stuff like this sometimes! Just to study it!

Looks like you anticipated my ponderings as I was writing them. Well I don't know, but I think that if they have a manual printed in English, as stated in the specifications for the kit, it sounds like it??? If you're talking about the parts from the partner stores, your guess is as good as mine. Also, shipping from China or Europe adds a lot.

Extra cash, what's that! ha .... I haven't had the extra cash to build myself even a basic Ebike. But one day it will be mine, he said cackling and clenching his fists in greed and jealousy!

Gary

[Hillhater]

From your link to the French site ..http://translate.google.com/translate?t ... ike.com%2F
@ 399 Euro



..and from the ASEAKO Ebay ad..

The Central Drive System has a clutch; if the power is off then no resistant force will be felt when pedaling the bike. Hub-Motors cannot compensate for the resistant force resulting in extra strain on the rider.
.With Optical, mechanical and electrical functions, the motor will engage when the rider begins pedaling and will disengage as soon as pedaling ceases. This unique system allows the operator to conserve energy and also ensures the extra long battery life.
..The rider can also use the throttle function where no pedaling is required.
The motor will stop when the operator either stops pedaling or applies the brakes. The ASEAKO SPORT includes current limit control, temperature limit control, overcharge and over discharge protection; protection for both the operator and the E-Bike itself with an abundance of safety features

[Hillhater]

Hmm looks interesting! I wonder if it would handle more power or possibly adapt an RC motor to it! Imagine a nice little astro turning that baby!

Undoubtedly rated at 200 /350W ( depending on the vendor) to comply with legal requirements and
probably limited by the controller ( labled at 15 A max, 7 A continuous ) , or the battery C rate.
Most BLDC motors respond to better controllers and batterys

[Whiplash]

That is a good thing! I recently tested my New geared setup for the first time and through the rear cluster it took a VERY tiny amount of power to match the acceleration of my hub bike! The gear setup @44.4V 22A max, actually OUT accelerated my hub at 55.5V 35A!! That is a big deal!! I would venture to guess if you could get this to handle 44.4V25A you would have a very fun and exciting ride through the gears with MINIMAL design work!

[waxman123]

I bought one of these 2 years ago (it was my first ebike and put the fever in me but destroyed it in one weekend). After two builds I am on a third and finally the one I have hoped for. The two before have been leaning experiences to say the least.

Ok back to the post I took the motor off the bike and put a ASTRO 3120 on it and it looked awesome but that is where it stops. I only bench tested it worked good with no load but the only problem was it sounded like a harley going down the street. It was soooooo load. It was a 48V set up so it might have been too much for it.

Maybe a lower voltage or a lot lower KV motor would do the trick. But at 6000 ish rpm it is super loud!!! I think somewhere around 3000 ish max rpm and it would be managible noise!!!

[jimw1960]

Any idea of what the battery looks like and where it would mount with one of these kits?

[mabman]

I got this email in reply to a request about whether they could supply the unit with more wattage:

We can produce the 350W hub type BIGHIT for the US market. For central drive system, we can only use 250W maximum, but you know the 250W central drive system is very powerful compare to the hub type motor. We can mix a container by 250W central and 350W hub type motor

The attachment is the our advantage and the details on our central drive system and our e-bike.This central system is the best system on e-bike nowadays and in the future.

What do you think or what kind of way on how can we support your company or cooperation?We are flexible.We are open to talk.

My primary interest in a retrofittable bb drive is for use on cargo/longtail bikes and 250w even through the drivetrain just isn't enough. Am going to make a stab at another communication and see just how flexible they are?

But looking again at the system it seems like the chain in the system is a potential weak link. But really the best way to see if these units are feasible is to get ahold of one and that may be the next step.

[Hillhater]

Are you sure you are dealing with the actual manufacturer, or just another link in the supply chain. ?
It may be better to ask for a tech spec of the motor, IE stator dia, no of poles, wire size, number of turns etc .... then we can estimate its potential on a decent controller and battery.

Waxman .. if you still have the motor, maybe you can fill in come of the gaps here ?

[Starson]

I bought one of these 2 years ago (it was my first ebike and put the fever in me but destroyed it in one weekend). After two builds I am on a third and finally the one I have hoped for. The two before have been leaning experiences to say the least.

Ok back to the post I took the motor off the bike and put a ASTRO 3120 on it and it looked awesome but that is where it stops. I only bench tested it worked good with no load but the only problem was it sounded like a harley going down the street. It was soooooo load. It was a 48V set up so it might have been too much for it.

Maybe a lower voltage or a lot lower KV motor would do the trick. But at 6000 ish rpm it is super loud!!! I think somewhere around 3000 ish max rpm and it would be managible noise!!!

Hope you were able to get the damaged parts replaced under warranty? Otherwise mind sharing what it took to destroy the motor? I looked up your other posts and see that you're running an Ecospeed system, which I'll bet is the build that you indicated you're satisfied with now.

Gary

[Matthijs]

I am not sure this info was already posted but I noticed that here: http://www.eastsunworld.com/tonaro-model-enduro/ they also list the parts manufacturer. (Bold)

BATTERY Li-Polymer 10AH36V AEE
MOTOR ForPedelec 36V200W Brushless Black&Silver JINGLIAN
REDUCER 36200W patented Aluminum AVIC
CONTROLLER Brushless Controller 36V controller, 15±1A Max Limit, Hall Sensor, 3 level LISHUI http://www.lsdzs.com/e/newsshow.asp?newsid=82
SENSOR Hall Sensor Black Black LISHUI

[waxman123]

\
When running the Astro motor on the "pedlec" on a bench test only it probably will work on the bike BUT it is just too loud!!! It soundede like a motorcycle at the high RPMs of the Astro motor. If you lower the rpms to around 3000 -2000 I think it would be doable just not with an RC motor.

As for the Eco speed set up. I bought a set up from them 2 years ago and eneded up using the motor, gear box, cranks. that was my first build.

On my third build (second build was a hub motor build that lasted 3 days of off road and hill climbs then fried) I am using 2011 Eco speed motor (looks just like the powerpck mootors but much better wiring and lasting longer than powerpwck motors) using the 2011 Ecospeed freewheeling cranks system (by far the best set up out there for freewheeling cranks I have tried them all). I am using a 12 fet controller from Lyen (best controllers around) magura throttle using a 10- 1 anahiem automation reduction to 3-1 cranks for over all 30-1 recuction to a Rolohoff hub (superior hub).

I am having great success with this set up both for extremme offroad (downhill), extended hill climbing and getting 32-35 mph on the flats. Using 48 volt set up but considering going to 36 volt to see if I can longer ride time with more AH in lighter battery with out missing too much torgue. Going to regear it to compensate for lose from the 48 volt!

[Matthijs]

[Matthijs]

There are two kinds of Central Drive Technology, one drive the chain directly like YAMAHA does, another type drive the axle like TONARO does. The difference between the two technologies are as below:

1, Axle Drive System can be equipped with 3 speed crank set, Chain Drive System can only use 1 speed crank set because it needs to maintain the chain’s stability. That means Axle Drive System can be equipped with even 27 speeds derailleur but Chain Drive System can use 9 speeds derailleur for maximum. For Central Drive System, derailleur plays a very important role in performance. Base on the same output on the crank, more speeds derailleur could provide much more torque to the bike. In other wards, Axle Drive System is more suitable for climbing than Chain Drive System.



2, Axle Drive System is not sensitive to the chain’s stability. It works well, either with hub derailleur or normal derailleur. For Chain Drive System, it prefers to use hub derailleur to avoid the chain swing which might effect the transmission problem.
3，It’s convenient for Axle Drive System to change crank set. You can use the crank set from 20 tooth to 55 tooth as you want on an Axle Drive System. But if you want to change the tooth number on a Chain Drive System, you have to re-design the whole mold again. Axle Drive System bike is looks more suitable for DIY riders.

4, For Chain Drive System, YAMAHA for example, it does not request a large reduction ratio. So the reducer has fewer gears, lighter than Axle Drive System, it’s also smaller and less mechanical loss.

In appearance, an E-bike has four simple but important electric parts: the motor, the battery, the charger and the controller. In other words, if you own these parts and fit them on a normal bicycle, you would exactly have an E-bike. But for Central Drive System E-bike, you need a reducer for extra which provide more torque. “Reducer is the heart of Central Drive System” said by Professor Zhang who is the founder of TONATO system, “More and more E-bikes will use Central Drive System in the future.”

[Hillhater]

.. TONARO ..TONATO..?? they seem confused

..But i think we are homing in on the equipment manufacturer..

TONARO power assisted electric bicycle is a new high-tech product independently developed and patented by China National Aero-Technology Guangzhou Company Limited.

http://www.tonaro.cn/index.html

I notice Amazon have that ES .."BigHit" .. bike for £975 ! (UK pounds)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tonaro-Bighit-E ... B0047VVG1U

[mabman]

Hey Matthijs, where is that FS bike from? It is alot different than the stock Tonaro models. It has a name on the down tube but I can't make it out. It also looks like it has a front derailleur so if it does it has to be the Axle drive. And those videos give a much better explanation of how the Axle Drive works, thanks for that.

We'll get to the bottom of this yet Hillhater!

[Hillhater]

Hey Matthijs, where is that FS bike from? It is alot different than the stock Tonaro models.
...We'll get to the bottom of this yet Hillhater!

I believe its from the French site .." ElectricBike"...posted earlier .
It seems to be a development of the Tonaro "BigHit" , and called the .."Bigith 5" ??... and is equiped with a Rolhoff hub, hydro discs , Marzocchi fork, Cycle Analyst, 48v 16Ahr lipo, etc.. Claims of 48 mph too !
.http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... tUE3tAcNpg

EDIT :
Actually the bike above is their .."Bigith 4" .. lower spec than the "5" ...same site, on one of the other pages