Cortina Revisited

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Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:51 pm

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This bike project would not be possible without you ES guys. I have much gratitude for you all. Thank you. The questions you ask are sometimes my questions but often they were not even in my mind and yet so valuable. Many thanks.

Over the last several months I remade my original electric Cortina into a completely new machine.

Motor: Astro 3220 (5 turn)
Primary Drive Assembly: Matt
Tube Clamps: Self made
Tube Clamp to Primary Drive Assembly: 1/8” aluminum – Self-made
Torque Limiter: Dalton OSD-225
Motor Drive Freewheel: Try-All 108.9 16t
Controller: HV160 + 2 Caps
Battery: LiPo - 48v 10Ah - 12S-2P 25c
Aluminum Battery-Electronics Enclosure In Triangle: 1/8” 3 pieces – self-made
Electronics: Matt’s put the servo tester and BEC into a Radio Shack project box
PreCharge resister: 10 watt – 1 ohm
Throttle: Magura
Rear Hub: Shimano Nexus 3 Speed
Sprockets at rear hub: Combination of Gary Goodrun’s adapter [http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE-zz-FWAdapter], Big Cheese adapter modded to fit the 16t Nexus sprocket, a 50t chainring and Shimano 18t Freewheel
Chains: Human and motor powered drive chains are Wipperman 108 – primary drive chain is #25
Bottom Bracket Cartridge: Sick Bike Parts – 153 mm [http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=107&osCsid=m0jn9rpbi82vedbkev964e85e4]

Bike Frame: Cortina Cycles: Cortina Triton DS – CrMo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortina_Cycles]
Forks: Marzocchi Bomber
Rims & Tires: 26” – CST Cyclops 26x2.4
Weight: 59 pounds – 33 front & 36 rear

Primary chain reduction: 12:45 – 3.75
Secondary chain reduction: 16:50 – 3.13
Overall reduction: 11.75

Issue: Goes like a bat out of he!! Geared for 45+mph – So far I have had it to about 35mph and it feels very stable.

Issue: Triangle too small – wanted to get 8 packs in but it only has 4 now with the possibility to add another 2 if I work with the wiring in the triangle. The concept is to keep all batts and electronics inside of the triangle. Time to make my own full suspension CrMo frame.

Issue: Throttle is very herky-jerky, especially at lower speeds…any ideas?

Issue: 3220 gets to about 115 degrees F in just a few minutes easy riding. Is this normal?

Issue: It’s a PITA to get to the batts for charging. Have to build charging ports into the aluminum coverings.

Issue: Torque-limiter seems to grab and not slip smoothly - feels a bit like a slipping timing belt. Still working out how much pressure to apply – after every ride I adjust it some. This thing gets hot…I measured over 160 degrees F after a short ride. I think this means it’s slipping a lot…

Issue: Rear sprocket setup wobbles too much for my comfort. When I stand on the cranks sometimes the round “split ring” that holds the 16t sprocket that supports the motor sprocket and freewheel comes off – I think because the center-line of the freewheel sprocket is about 5/8" from the center-line of the 16t hub sprocket. Fortunately, because Gary’s adapter is almost touching the end of the hub and the washers spacing out the adapter from the hub provides a bit of space - I am able, with a small screw driver, to pop the ring back into place. I think if I put some blue Loctite on the split ring it should be OK.
But, the sprocket assembly will still wobble around more than I like.

Issue: Large motor driven rear sprocket is very difficult to make concentric with the axle because of the way the adapter bolts through the 16t sprocket. I am going to take this all apart and see if there is a way I can cut the teeth off the sprocket, I think these things are really hard, and weld on a flange with bolt holes concentric with the axle.

Issue: Need Cycle Analyst but have Turnigy 130A meter for now. Did the "Jeremy Harris mod" to separate the shunt from the display. Works great. Thanks Jeremy.
[http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21976&start=0]

I am going to rewind an 80x85 and try it out in this machine.
It has occurred to me to rewind a 63-74 and put it in this machine as being more reasonable in terms of power.

Got to move onto a new full suspension CrMo frame. Already have 24” wheels and tires and a bike I can scavenge forks and disk brakes and other stuff from.

I will post some video soon.

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Last edited by RWP on Sun May 01, 2011 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby AussieJester » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:57 pm

That is one incredibly slick and sick setup mate congrats on a beautiful build!

"Jerky throttle" maybe something the slipper clutch can partially solve
but from my experience with the hv160 you do get alot of mojo for very
little throttle input, you get used to it, not optimal for off-road riding
admittedly, but i have zero issue with it on road after a few hours of adjustment..
getting used to it.

To rectify it completely i believe a sensored controller and hall sensors are required.

KiM
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:08 am

Thanks so much AJ.
You are one of the guys here that seems always available to lend a helping hand.
I take real inspiration from your builds and process.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:02 am

More Pictures.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby flyinmonkie » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:31 am

Absolutely amazing RWP. Fantastic work. Your builds always have a very finished and professional look to them. I look forward hearing how the hub goes with the slipper clutch.

Clay
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby Miles » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:36 am

Yes. Well done, Roy. Interesting to see things evolving...
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby Byte » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:17 am

Awesome! Nice build! I will be following this one :)
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby recumpence » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:15 am

The throttle response is partially due to the tall gearing and efficient motor combination. You can soften the throttle response in the controller programming a bit. This will help.

All the torque limiters I have setup (quite a few) have run nice and smooth. Not sure about that issue.........

Anyway, it looks great!

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby Thud » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:49 am

RWP,
Wow, that Cortina is just Classy....ellegant,smooth & has class...one of my favorites.

For your grabby clutch..try setting it a little loose & slip it for a full 30 seconds. then re-adjust it. That may seat a little better for a bit more consistant grab.

I have noticed the same notchy-ness to throttle resolution with castle controllers....my solution is to only use WOT. :lol:
get some......

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby EVTodd » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:28 am

Great to see the Cortina again. The new setup is sweet!

Your bike was the main reason I ended up buying a KHS DJ200 frame (very similar looks).
New Tidalforce friction drive build: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28029

My Friction Drive Outrunner Setup: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9652&start=330
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:58 pm

EVTodd wrote:Great to see the Cortina again. The new setup is sweet! Your bike was the main reason I ended up buying a KHS DJ200 frame (very similar looks).
Thanks EV - Wow, did not know there was a similar frame - looks the same!

Thud wrote:RWP,
Wow, that Cortina is just Classy....ellegant,smooth & has class...one of my favorites. For your grabby clutch..try setting it a little loose & slip it for a full 30 seconds. then re-adjust it. That may seat a little better for a bit more consistant grab. I have noticed the same notchy-ness to throttle resolution with castle controllers....my solution is to only use WOT. :lol:
Thanks Thud, I will try slipping the torque limiter and see what happens! WOT :mrgreen: Not sure I have the balls for this yet...but grabbing more throttle seems to help for sure!

recumpence wrote:The throttle response is partially due to the tall gearing and efficient motor combination. You can soften the throttle response in the controller programming a bit. This will help. ... Anyway, it looks great! Matt
Thanks Matt, I set the programming to soft throttle. Maybe as Thud said, it's got something to do with the torque limiter...

Byte wrote:Awesome! Nice build! I will be following this one :)
Thank you!

Miles wrote:Yes. Well done, Roy. Interesting to see things evolving...
Thanks Miles, I now have my own place to work which makes it all much easier. Think I am going to rewind a few motors and build that CrMo full suspension frame I was talking about. That should make it all that much more interesting.

flyinmonkie wrote:Absolutely amazing RWP. Fantastic work. Your builds always have a very finished and professional look to them. I look forward hearing how the hub goes with the slipper clutch. Clay
Thank You Clay - really appreciate your comments. I will update about the hub as time goes on.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:22 pm

Beeeea-U-tiful!! These pics are now in my top-ten examples of E-bikes state-of-the-art! (Nicobies Townie, Matts yellow trike, AJ's blue cruiser, Miles' Moulton, etc)

Of course..it wouldn't hurt to add a Thudbuster and a cup-holder?...

I am laying the groundwork for a cargo-bike right now, and I plan to do what you've done with the Nexus-3 and two right-side chains.
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby deecanio » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:49 pm

very sweet Roy 8) 8)
watching with interest on your throttle issues.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:24 pm

Thanks D,

Have you experienced similar throttle issues?

Cheers,
Roy
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby bandaro » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:40 pm

very nice and clean, and virtually the exact same direction i am taking my bike, i have a giant stp so it is basically the same frame, just a little beefier looking.

I really like how clean it ended up, it looks fantastic. Also, I know what you mean about the small triangle to hold the batts, my build is crank driven so i have a reduction box in that triangle as well, so space is tight, very tight... was planning on having rounded edges on my battery box, but seeing how nice yours looks i may go the square edge, with a 5mm campher...

As for tyres, i have a fat knobby set of kenda onroads, looks similar to yours but with the onroad style knobs on them, and they survived 40-45mph no problem so yours should be right to go faster :D

With the motor, I have a spare 63-74 armature and stuff (broke the rotor when it came off the lathe) so I was planning on rewinding it in wye to see how it compares to the delta, so I can give you an idea, but it wont be for 2-3 months probably.
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:47 pm

More pictures.
The top and bottom horizontal pieces that attach to the "spine" and are "C" channel shaped. They were originally 1" x 2" rectangular tubing with an 1/8" wall. I slit the tubing to end up with 2 pcs of 2" wide x approx ½" high parts that I screwed to the spine. I use 1/8" thick tubing because I cut 6-32 threads to attach the side covers. Because I am taking the side covers off so often to charge the packs I am thinking of putting rivnuts (see McMaster) to replace the original threads.

You can see the controller on one side and the black box on the other side is the Radio Shack project box that contains the bec and servo tester.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby Whiplash » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:34 am

That is basically what I did too! Very nice! Why not use Velcro for the side cover for charging purposes? That is what I used and it works FLAWLESSLY! holds very well, jumping etc is no problem...
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby deecanio » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:40 pm

RWP wrote:Thanks D,

Have you experienced similar throttle issues?

Cheers,
Roy


Only the time the bike tried to kill me :mrgreen: im sure you've seen the vid?
To be fair it was my own fault and having the throttle response set to 6 (of 10) when it should be set to 1 didn't help ;) although i have read posts from others saying that the adjustable settings for the throttle are only variations of the issue, not a fix.
I haven't tested the setup with the magura throttle that Matt kindly setup for me so it well may be that its heaps better than the cheap chinesed thumb throttle i had rigged up when the ebike attacked me, a 20% twist gave me full power and i ended up on my ass.
Laying it all out there i think there is a problem with the throttle control on the HV160, it doesn't matter as much on a trike/kmx as you can spin the wheel with no issues, and it seems ok on kims cruiser as he has a long wheel base and an ample ass to keep the thing rooted, however i have not seen anyone riding an upright that isn't very twitchy on the throttle (wheelies) - anyone got a smooth power delivery yet?
I have the slipper clutch too (well its on its way) and that will no doubt help, but if im honest im not overly enamoured with having to employ it because the throttle can not be set to dial in the power gradually, to this end i have returned the Kona to a hubby for now whilst i play with the rc setup on a different (secondary) bike.
Im holding on to my rc kit to see whether a resolution can be found as it is still very early days in rc developement and it is excellent power to size/weight as you well know, im hoping someone has the right combo of kit/settings to make the rc work out for uprights with all that power unleashed gradually as it should be, maybe it's you :?: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: be aware of the power Roy, its quite something.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby recumpence » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:00 pm

I have found throttle response is plenty smooth with the HV160 on a mild KV motor. With a hot motor (high KV), throttle response becomes a bit touch at low settings. That being said, my tiny wheel-base BMX bike ran fine at low throttle with 14kw on tap. :wink:

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby Thud » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:20 pm

On My death race Bike, the throttle resolution was a non issue as I had plenty of wheelbase & was geared to the high end of the performance envelope.

But I do know on a shorter wheelbase & higher CG bike frame...a High power (especialy a twin motor config). motor will definatly reveal the "steps" when ramping up the throttle. its not Just the HV160 that shows the limitations...its RC controllers in general..my ICE100 has a more it even pronounced & all the park fyer controllers I have are even worse.

I hardly notice it anymore.....but I am normaly WOT 99% of the time when using RC controllers :mrgreen:
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby deecanio » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:12 am

Thud wrote:I hardly notice it anymore.....but I am normaly WOT 99% of the time when using RC controllers :mrgreen:


thats the way to setup rc :mrgreen:

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby AussieJester » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:50 am

RWP wrote:Thanks D,
Have you experienced similar throttle issues?


you could say that... :mrgreen:




Deec wrote:Only the time the bike tried to kill me :mrgreen: im sure you've seen the vid?


he has now :mrgreen: ...SoZ my lil soccer luvin' buddy ... :lol:

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby bandaro » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:18 pm

so how does this model compare to your old one do you think?

i imagine the weight is much better lower down and between your legs (hate riding with a heavy load on the back myself) and have you noticed better efficiency now that you are not running on the cranks this time round?

So what will you change on your third prototype, or is this one good enough/not ridden enough to know yet?
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby RWP » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:17 am

bandaro wrote:so how does this model compare to your old one do you think?
i imagine the weight is much better lower down and between your legs (hate riding with a heavy load on the back myself) and have you noticed better efficiency now that you are not running on the cranks this time round?
So what will you change on your third prototype, or is this one good enough/not ridden enough to know yet?
Great questions!

For me it's night and day. The first version was always a bit fragile; the belt slipped, it was skittish at anything over 30, the motor overheated when stressed just a bit, I went through several controllers even though I added caps..

I think getting the batteries and electronics "between my legs", as you say, and the motor down low, helped enormously - now it's very stable at 35, which is the fastest I have taken it so far. So far the HV160 is behaving.

I am working on rewinding an 80-85 and probably will make this my daily driver. Need to find room for more batteries though.
spinningmagnets wrote:Consider the option of extending the battery cover side panels down and forward so that you can place two bricks just under the down-tube and just above the motor. Even with the forks fully compressed, I think you may have enough room for two more without the tire hitting?
Great idea spinning - if there is room for 2 there's room for 4 :twisted:

Just put a meter on it so I will have efficiency data next week. I have a racer friend who is going to wring it out on Sunday - I'll do some video - so I should have a much better idea of performance and efficiency next week.

My next one will be a custom built full suspension CroMo frame with room for twice the battery and same motor. Really like the Zerode, Brooklyn Motor Works and boXer (Death Race) bikes as inspiration. Gotta find a way to incorporate a Nexus Alfine in the frame.
At least that is the current plan...

Roy
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Postby JEB » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:33 pm

Hi RWP:

All the pictures look great-

A friend told me there is a guy in Goleta, that will build a custom bike frame to your spec.

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