semi-serious 20inch racing build

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:29 pm

Here some pics :
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Thats what I'm talking about:
storage/charging place
Image

I'm not sure how to build tha swingarm, the carboon one is nice but not really adapted to the frame, a 8kg piece of chineeze steel :mrgreen:
the hub has to go the other way, and will be pedal driven on the left side. The freewheel wil be either keyed or hard loc-tited in place to keep it from unscewing.
The drive side has a 15t track cog with a lock ring and plenty of steel thread to screw on.
This will be an heavy pig, but hopefully multispeed and hubbie will be a good match ;)
Stay tuned I'm geting started real soon :D
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby Whiplash » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:44 pm

VERY COOL! what frame is that? I would love to build one! Could be the next poor man's Stealth! What does the frame weigh?? Is it a standard head tube size that will fit a MTB fork?

I hope you don't mind if I try this as well! I really like the look! I will crunch some RPM numbers but I bet a slow wind 9C would make a MONSTER climber throught the gears! and by the looks of it, you could get 30AH of 44.4V LIPO in there EASY with an 18 FET under the main tube!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby Chambers » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:46 pm

Awesome build(s) man, I love watching the progression 8)
How much heavier do you think the new bike will be with the solid pit frame and big hub?
Gonna look awesome no matter what I reckon!
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:45 am

If you look closer at it, you will find that the motoped frame is a modded crf 50 or 70 frame, with a custom swing arm. This frame is a crf50 copy frame, its really heavy at 8+kg. I'm shooting for a total weigth of 45kg max, or 110kg for the bike plus me on it, as I think more than that would be pushing the limits of bike components... The head tube is not at bicycles standards, but integrated beaings can be made to fit quite easy I think with some adapter rings or some epoxy+aluminium powder. The hardest part will be to sort cleerances around pedal input and the motor, as I will either need to offest it rigth to clear the frame, or get the chain trougth it. Tigth!
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby AussieJester » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:19 am

WELL :P You did say it was "semi serious" definitely "semi" with a frock and headwwys..REALLY?? my man...
heading the wrong way IMHO...but as always wish you well...you haz the skillz ;-)

KiM
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby Whiplash » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:03 pm

A build like this really needs the new Astro I just saw Rec. is working on, now THAT would be Wicked!

That being said, 17lbs is not THAT heavy, I am sure the stealth is every bit of that, and this frame has some metal that can be shaved off for our applications for sure! I guess you could just slice the head tube in half and weld in a new one fairly easily to keep the geometry good no? I really want to try this for my own personal build, I think this could be a really fun bike with the right combo of motor and gearing/reduction. I think it could be fairly cost effective to build too! I mean a hub like that can be had for less than 200 bucks and I know my Conhismotor could take an easy 3000+ watts to it and it would be dead silent still! HMM really got me thinking! I'm off to check Craigslist for a cheap pit bike! LOL!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:58 pm

I'm changing my plans.
I put the frame, forks and motor on a scale and it already reads 13.6kg; no way i'm using that on a trail. But I still want to experiment with gears, so its time for a new build, custom frame this time. I Just saw a super cool vid about a japaneeze man building crazy custom gazzers, and now that I sold my moped I don't have something fun to carve with... my offroad is not really good on road, the high seating position makes it crap to lean too much, and 20's are not helping either! I also want something classy to cruize around, with some nice range and doing 50km/hour. I'm thinking 72v10ah headway, 3-4kw, 7-8 gears and somewhat pedalable. Relyable. Hardtail for simplicity, and some sort of grider forks in front. Discs F&R, probably hydros, as I found some really nice shimano sets for a fair price! This will be fun :p

Anyway, I also have my velomobile build going on, plus a FPV set up with a diy quadcopter to get runing... I Know from experiance that having too many projects at the same time is a bad thing :roll:


On the offroad side of things, the present bike rocks. It lacks low end torque but i can live with that. The problem is that its absolutely not pedalable, and the a123's are getting old to be pushed like that.I'm amazed the controller survives the brusts! I have a new (old) frame coming from the bay, that will hopefully be good to get the thing going a little better with pedal input.Image I have another ss 190-200 on hand if this one blows, but so far so good, I have about 15 hours on it without a problem runing 3k peaks and 1500w continuous! Not bad for 32$...
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby farmkid4 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:50 am

Some very neat build(s) looking forward to watching this one.

What motor do you think you will use?
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby GITech » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:50 pm

TopCat wrote:
bzhwindtalker wrote:I think that the hobbyking SS-190/200 is worth something in our applications, it handle some serious power nicely! Quite cheap too, 25euros delivered. The drawback is that you have to stick with low voltage, but that makes gearing and battery balancing easy! I only have 1hour of run time on it, so i may be a little optimistic ;)


Is this the type of ESC your using?
Image
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=14500

Im wondering (should I go RC on my next motor buy) would one of these work with an Turnigy 80-100-B 130Kv Brushless Outrunner?

Regards
Tom


For me I burnt out an HV sentillion 100A and a HV super brain 110A at 22.2v on the 80-100-130 outrunner. :evil:

Then I decided that since I was going to retire that bike build altogether, I would get few more (careful) rides out of it by taking my super simple 90-100Amp version out of my custom E-maxx. I got some of those cheap $3.00 self-reseting circuit breakers from my local auto parts store to limit the current to the controller, as I really didn't want to fry it and I intended to put it back into my E-maxx.

So I started with just one 20A circuit breaker, it would pop open easily. Too easily, so I added another one in parallel for a 40A limit, better, but still popped open too often, so I replaced one of the 20A breakers with a 40A, still popped open if I held WOT long enough just to get to top speed, I thought good, but this little 100A super simple ESC still didn't seemed stressed, so after trying two 40A breakers for 80A total and them almost not popping at all, I took the breakers out altogether and no longer had to think about how much current was being pushed through it.

BUT, then the ESC shut off on me after WOT for ~1/4 mile at 35mph+! Without any breakers in the system anymore I thought "well, this ESC finally bit the bullet". But no smoke! Hmmmm, it was super HOT, so hot the shrink wrap was splitting off of it...then, all of a sudden I hear "beep beep beep be-deep" and I was back on the road! :shock:

I went back home and replaced the stock heatsink with a PC CPU heatsink and never had a problem with it no matter how hard I tried...for the few more times I took it out before Finlay retiring the bike. It was the frame I was truly worried about breaking at the wrong time.

It also lost sync with the motor MUCH LESS than either of the more expensive HV ESC's! :roll:

Moral of the story: The little 90-100Amp Super Simple ESC survived all that abuse! :twisted:

CRAZY IMO!

Just thought I'd share,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for saving ES!

Ideas and projects by GITech are protected by: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby sn0wchyld » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:55 pm

cant believe i've only just found this thread!! nice nice work mate, and good to hear how much abuse the SS controllers take. Whats the diamiter of the hub your using there? A mac with the flanges removed may be a better option?
My builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29373
Norko Aline Park DH - Clyte HT3525 - 24s lipo
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33657&p=534823#p534823
'02ish Avanti D8 - 8085 170kv - 5s 40ah lipo - ple80 recution
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43143
RC Electric mountainboard
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=57489
RC longboard with my own CNC routered parts!
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:00 pm

the hub I planned on using is a conshis "1000w" DD hub This whole project is now evolving into a custom frame with plans about producing somes frames for interested ES members. See there : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35715
I will probably build a hubbie and a non-hub vertion of this bike. Prototype is on the rigth way, and will probably be rideable quite soon (3-4 weeks)

In the meantime, i'm still riding my 80-85 powered bike, and I like it! but having no low end torque is really starting to bug me, time to change I guess...

Still riding great :
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby sn0wchyld » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:10 pm

damn mate, you have some seriously amazing places to ride!! stunning. love the bike too.

are you still on the SS190-200? I just bought a couple myself, so cheap its worth a shot eh? when you say 'no low end torque' how low are we talking? like below 10kmh? 5? Im planning on running mine through the bikes gears, so hopefully I can get a bit more in at the low speeds...

cheers.
My builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29373
Norko Aline Park DH - Clyte HT3525 - 24s lipo
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33657&p=534823#p534823
'02ish Avanti D8 - 8085 170kv - 5s 40ah lipo - ple80 recution
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43143
RC Electric mountainboard
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=57489
RC longboard with my own CNC routered parts!
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby GITech » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:52 pm

bzhwindtalker, nice! I really like the concept of custom rear swingarms for mounting the motor and whole drive train. Have you seen my thread yet? I proposes a lot of fuctionality and drivetrain protection in a simple format that all mounts to a custom swingarm. ;) As a matter of fact, I may be looking for another person who can make my custom swingarm for me, as the guy I've been contacting is not responding to messages even though he gave me a price etc so it has me a bit worried. Where do you live? I'm making progress with the parts and details of my drive train, I've just got several parts in the mail and I have a parts order already on it's way to Thud for some machining. If you like what my design offers, maybe you would want to do one for yourself as well, and we can combine efforts and minds to bennefit us both?! I'll be updating my thread later today as I have to get some of the parts I have in hand over to Thud as well and I have to take measurements and pics of them first to make the post and update my drawing.

sn0wchyld wrote:damn mate, you have some seriously amazing places to ride!! stunning. love the bike too.

are you still on the SS190-200? I just bought a couple myself, so cheap its worth a shot eh? when you say 'no low end torque' how low are we talking? like below 10kmh? 5? Im planning on running mine through the bikes gears, so hopefully I can get a bit more in at the low speeds...

cheers.


Yes, you'll be able to get more torque at low speeds and higher top speeds with a selection of gears, so that's good. bzhwindtalker has a ~flat~ torque curve due to the single gear ratio of his direct drive. His gear ratio 'is' setup for top speed and torque is pretty much equal throughout the speed range. It's what you get with a single small reduction and a small voltage/motor RPM. Though it's also a given that it losses sync 'easier' at low speeds/rpm, so he most likely feels like there is more torque at higher rpms, but that's mostly a factor of being able to twist the throttle more without losing sync. Is that what you think too bzh?

I'll answer your PM here Snow, On the Super Simple ESC, I just cut off the heatshrink with a razor blade and the heatsink just peels right off. Be very careful not to cut anything but the heatshrink and the newer/sharper your razor blade is the easier the job will be to pull off successfully because less force is needed to move the razor through the material. Then I just used a couple of zip-ties to hold the ESC to the PC CPU heatsink.

Later,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for saving ES!

Ideas and projects by GITech are protected by: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:18 pm

I finnaly burned my first rc esc. I was playing on the road trying to get a stoopie then burnout, and after maybe 5 minutes on the off the charger pack, the bike stard struggeling on acceleration. I keept testing it until total esc destruction (magic smoke) but in the end it seems that the problem comes from the motor that shorted... so i'm left with a shorted motor and a burnt esc ^^ (and noting to ride :cry: )
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby GITech » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:38 pm

Awe, that sucks! Have you tested to see if there is a short to the case or to another coil it shouldn't have continuity too?

Are you going to try to rewind it? I'd be willing to do it for you for the cost of a spool of wire. :)

What do you think about my proposal in my last post?

Later,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for saving ES!

Ideas and projects by GITech are protected by: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:12 pm

I do not have a proper worksop yet, so I cant ensure a decent work. I am trying to find one to rent, without too much success for now... But yes I'm 100% with you, custom swing-arms can change a basic frame into a really nice ebike platform! I will let you know how it goes...

I will probably rewind the motor, just to train my skills at it. I re winded some small motors (100w...) but this is another game! I Have a efficiency contest project going with school (something alot like the shell eco-marathon), and the vehicle would probably benefit from a rewind for super low kv!

Nothing to ride... I really have to finish my custom frame FAST!
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Re: semi-serious 20inch racing build

Postby GITech » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Cool, ok! Let me know when/if you find a shop you can work with. PM me if need be when you do. :D

Wait, I must be missing something..how are you going to work on your custom frame without this shop you haven't found yet? :| Please straighten me out! :mrgreen:

Later,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for saving ES!

Ideas and projects by GITech are protected by: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
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