Re: avanti D8085 - maybe to be renamed D8-93??

[sn0wchyld]

So you haven't heard from Superkids either. It is a shame, because I have had good service from them in the past. It would be nice to just hear if the BMC scooter motors are available or not or if they expect some soon. If they has some I would have one on the way.

Anyway, I'll be watching to see what you come up with as well. Good luck

Clay

Just sent 'em another asking when they expect stock. not going to hold my breath though.

Another question just came up too, the option of rewinding a turnigy motor. Most people say its a PITA and hard on the hands, but what about using multiple strands of thinner paralleled wire? is there a reason most people go with thick beefy wire? and Im looking at something like this...
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161
is it worth rewinding for a lower kv? or just too small to be worth while?

Back to supkerkids...
yea the 1500w one looked about perfect, assuming it'd handle short peaks above that. 2kw one is just a tad to big (18cm). May as well use a HT as a mid drive lol... hrm... im off to mesure the HT if it had no spoke flange...

edit
yep, the HT would be about 180mm wihtout the flanges too. still to tall but would make for an interesting mid drive project on a custom frame, maybe in the future...

[Gregory]

Timma was selling a matt s reduction drive in the for sale - new section of the forums.

[sn0wchyld]

Timma was selling a matt s reduction drive in the for sale - new section of the forums.

thanks for the tip, pm'ed timma but looks like it's a astro only thing.

[Whiplash]

My vote is for either the BMC motors or the MAC in a mid drive like I am doing. The nice thing about the MAC is I am hoping to have a fairly universal mounting bracket for it soon, that will make the install much easier, and I would not recommend more than 2500 to 3000 watts peak for short bursts. I have had the RC thing and its just a bear to make them quiet and they are really touchy on the throttle (high strung) which is fun sometimes but not others...

[wineboyrider]

What about the Golden Motors non-hub ? Lightcycle built a bent with one...? http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29810&start=30

[bandaro]

I would suggest an rc, they may be a little more noisy, but you can get 3kw easily from a 800g motor, the main problem I have with them is fitting a multi stage reduction to the cranks so they are not spinning at 500 rpm. Looking at the bldc motors, one was 8.8kg and only managed 800 watts, so for me personally that is far too heavy, the whole unit including batteries is that weight, and manages 3kw...

Similar problem with hubbies, they are heavier than a well designed reduction system, and for me weight is more of an issue than noise. I am currently several versions into a brushless bb drive, will cut the gearbox out wednesday (already have an mdf one so it will fit) then it is just wait for a new motor and sprocket and it will be done. Also looking into rewinding a motor, finish them in wye with more turns and the reduction can be considerably smaller, albeit at the cost of a little power.

For price, research goes a long way. Spend a little more and get what goes straight onto your bought parts instead of modify them, belts can be very finicky compared to chain, so design it with care. Also, get lipo straight up. The little things go a long way, I have spent $3000 over my builds, actual parts on my current one are under $1000 easily, more like $800 or less.

Superkids.com, placed an order, checked it a few days later, and it had been rejected, no explanation and they didn't even bother to tell me.

Edit on the superkids: Tried again and asked specifically for shipping to aus, they replied that the post office was rubbish so they cannot ship usps, only ups for 80 bucks...

[sn0wchyld]

I would suggest an rc, they may be a little more noisy, but you can get 3kw easily from a 800g motor, the main problem I have with them is fitting a multi stage reduction to the cranks so they are not spinning at 500 rpm. Looking at the bldc motors, one was 8.8kg and only managed 800 watts, so for me personally that is far too heavy, the whole unit including batteries is that weight, and manages 3kw...

Similar problem with hubbies, they are heavier than a well designed reduction system, and for me weight is more of an issue than noise. I am currently several versions into a brushless bb drive, will cut the gearbox out wednesday (already have an mdf one so it will fit) then it is just wait for a new motor and sprocket and it will be done. Also looking into rewinding a motor, finish them in wye with more turns and the reduction can be considerably smaller, albeit at the cost of a little power.

For price, research goes a long way. Spend a little more and get what goes straight onto your bought parts instead of modify them, belts can be very finicky compared to chain, so design it with care. Also, get lipo straight up. The little things go a long way, I have spent $3000 over my builds, actual parts on my current one are under $1000 easily, more like $800 or less.

Superkids.com, placed an order, checked it a few days later, and it had been rejected, no explanation and they didn't even bother to tell me. Don't bother.

hehe, on lipo already with a hub. hence why im looking to move the wieght from the rear to the frame...

yea the 8.8kg 800w motor is way to heavy for its output, even if its underrated. its a shame they dont have a smaller version of their 3-7kw motor, at 20cm diamiter and 11kg it really is to big, if it had been ~15cm and 2-5kw I'd be all over it.

I did recieve an email back from superkids, but all it said is 'were out of stock, sorry'. I had also asked if / when they were getting stock, and a few other questions, none of witch were answered. shame, their motors were high on my list.

so really its down to a hub, witch will limit my max power, but have the benifit of being quiet and only needing a 1 stage reduction (direct to the BB), or a 80-80 / 80-100, witch would mean more power, more reduction, and more noise, all in a smaller package. Might end up buying a 80-80 and a 80100 and rewinding one while using the other.

[flyinmonkie]

At least you heard something back. I still have not after 3 emails. Good luck with your choice. I might try emailing BMC directly to see if they have another retailer for them, or if they are putting any stock out soon.

I am really starting to lean towards a 1200w cyclone. I have heard good things about the motors themselves. It is just everything else that is junk. They are also noisier due to the gear box. It would be nice if you could get the motor with a smooth shaft (unsplined) an no gear box. I already have a reduction drive.

Clay

[sn0wchyld]

At least you heard something back. I still have not after 3 emails. Good luck with your choice. I might try emailing BMC directly to see if they have another retailer for them, or if they are putting any stock out soon.

I am really starting to lean towards a 1200w cyclone. I have heard good things about the motors themselves. It is just everything else that is junk. They are also noisier due to the gear box. It would be nice if you could get the motor with a smooth shaft (unsplined) an no gear box. I already have a reduction drive.

Clay

yea I emailed their 'sales@' email... let me know if you find another retailer... I thought about a cyclone, but for me im doubting the power will be enough, so at this stage im leaning towards a 8085 + a 80100, with the intention of rewinding the 8085 at some point, for the 'final' build, and using the 80100 to get the rest of the parts/build up and running and attempting a re termination....

the reduction drive here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34146#p495887 is quite inspiring. keeps it low and compact. rewireing for star seems to be a good project too for a budding Elec. engineer before I take on a full rewind.

Im also thinking of getting and then modding a 12fet from lyen to run at ~50v, 80+A. Not keen on the CC's, given that ive heard they dont like partial throttle, not a good thing for trail/dh riding.

is 50v/80a enough
I know AJ, you said these motors are not great at less than 66v or so on sensored, but im looking to equal my ht at 95v/45a - just with the flexibility of gears and the reduction in weight... not shoot for mega power/speed. yet...

also aj if your reading this, how does your setup handle partial throttle? and does the CA allow fairly fine throttle response?

Am I right in thinking that the FETs in a controller are responsible for the majority of the heat generation? Im planning on having the controller inside the frame (think a long square box for the lower downtube), but at that power level its going to need some decent ventilation, and probably some active cooling, like a good size radial fan. Just want to know what to focus the most air movement around...

[recumpence]

That reduction looks good. However, it will be anything but quiet. Gear drives (straight gears) are inherantly noisey and exposed gears wear quickly. I do not mean to criticize, I love the effort and the design. However, I would go with a belt for the primary stage.

The issue with CC controllers is not partial throttle, it is high load with very low throttle. The FETs are overloaded if you pull high loads with low throttle. That is true with most controllers, however. But, with the tiny FETs in the RC controllers, that is more problematic than the huge controllers.

Matt

[sn0wchyld]

That reduction looks good. However, it will be anything but quiet. Gear drives (straight gears) are inherantly noisey and exposed gears wear quickly. I do not mean to criticize, I love the effort and the design. However, I would go with a belt for the primary stage.

The issue with CC controllers is not partial throttle, it is high load with very low throttle. The FETs are overloaded if you pull high loads with low throttle. That is true with most controllers, however. But, with the tiny FETs in the RC controllers, that is more problematic than the huge controllers.

Matt

thanks for clearing it up matt, looks like ill have to go with a ebike controller - I'd think it'd be rare for me to ever have high load at low throttle (would trying to start up a steep hill with 25% of WOT be a good example?) but blowing $300 of kit isn't something I can easily afford. a less-likely-to-blow-than-cc-controller for $150 odd is far better in that regard. is it hard to replace fets in the CC controllers?

On a side note, does this mean they'd be ok if you slammed the trottle in the same situation that partial throttle would kill it? I know it'd probably leave you on your ass but im curious...

is there a reason not to go with helical gears (arnt they quieter)? do they require a finer degree of allignment/wear faster? or are they simply muchmore expensive?

sorry for the mess of questions...

edit
just answered the last of those questions with good ol' google, looks like its the 'thrust loads' that need to be delt with... perhaps using two facing opposite ways? does that make it notably more complex to build?

[AussieJester]

is it hard to replace fets in the CC controllers?

For you, not possible, period...for 130 bucks you can send them back for "repair"
but what you actually get is a refurbished/new replacement controller in its place

On a side note, does this mean they'd be ok if you slammed the trottle in the same situation that partial throttle would kill it? I know it'd probably leave you on your ass but im curious...

You would 100% end up on your ass LoL

KiM

[sn0wchyld]

is it hard to replace fets in the CC controllers?

For you, not possible, period...for 130 bucks you can send them back for "repair"
but what you actually get is a refurbished/new replacement controller in its place

On a side note, does this mean they'd be ok if you slammed the trottle in the same situation that partial throttle would kill it? I know it'd probably leave you on your ass but im curious...

You would 100% end up on your ass LoL

KiM

dammit mate im trying to make a decision here! quit making it harder!! hehe. how many times can you turn the $130 trick? do CC care much that its being used for ebike applications? I was trying to eliminate them as an option, but they do sound pretty damn good, particually paired with a RC CA.

[AussieJester]

how many times can you turn the $130 trick? do CC care much that its being used for ebike applications?

Its paid warranty return, so as many times as you like i guess...and nope, they don't care what its used for when its paid warranty...I LOVE the Cycle Analyst and CC-HV160 combo the throttle is better than any servo tester setup i have used, by a large margin.

KiM

[gwhy!]

Im gonna pipe in , Get a 3.5kw outrunner and a modded 12fet from Lynen and your sorted for upto around 4kw, and with the money you save get more batterys

[sn0wchyld]

Im gonna pipe in , Get a 3.5kw outrunner and a modded 12fet from Lynen and your sorted for upto around 4kw, and with the money you save get more batterys

do you mean something like this?
http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224349
or
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161

and yea, im thinking ill get a 12fet to start and a CC in the future. the warrenty option is pretty damn good, but I could do with a spare 12fet for my norko/ht bike anyhow, and I want to try my hand at modding one too.

hows your own controller coming allong by the way?

and i think in sorted for batteries for a while yet got about 2.2kwh worth, and only using 1kwh...

[gwhy!]

Im gonna pipe in , Get a 3.5kw outrunner and a modded 12fet from Lynen and your sorted for upto around 4kw, and with the money you save get more batterys

do you mean something like this?
http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224349
or
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161

and yea, im thinking ill get a 12fet to start and a CC in the future. the warrenty option is pretty damn good, but I could do with a spare 12fet for my norko/ht bike anyhow, and I want to try my hand at modding one too.

hows your own controller coming allong by the way?

and i think in sorted for batteries for a while yet got about 2.2kwh worth, and only using 1kwh...

I have used the turnigy 3250w motors with good success but now these are no longer available this looks like a good alternative . My controller is still work in progress but the real hang up is having the time, I have had 2 major projects on the go but they are now coming to a end so I will have more time to spend on the controller ( to use with the 2 major projects )

[sn0wchyld]

ok, so im 90% on getting a couple of turnigy motors...

https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224352&Location=HK
and
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161&Location=HK
http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224349
is there any difference between the 2nd two to justify the price hike?


smaller one will be for initial use while I re terminate the other in delta (new kv is old * sqrt3 right?) so new kv should be around 100ish, plus be a bit kinder on the controller than the stock 170kv...

ive also found these gearboxes...

http://www.anaheimautomation.com/products/gearbox/planetary-gearbox.php?tID=109&pt=t&cID=30



specifically the GBPH-090x-NS - 10:1 reduction. with a further ~3 to 1 to the front BB for a total of 30:1, or 133rpm at the crank, with a 40tooth bb - 30t rear this should yeild a top speed in low gear of around 24km/h in a 2.2m circumference wheel... and around 70km/h with a 11t rear (ignoring wind resistance etc)... am I right or is my math off somewhere

the max rpm imput looks like the major drawback of these gearboxes - 4000 max. so with a 50v system that means max kv of aprox 100kv, allowing for 80% loaded speed + some Vdrop should come in just under this. anyone else had dealings with these guys/boxes before? they seem quite good + strong otherwise (~140nm output torque rated, 65db noise). a bit long at 170mm but I think I can deal with that.



Still in two minds on controllers. the CC is very tempting, just pushes the budget a bit...

the other option is still a lyen 12fet, using the 3077 FETS, since this wont be going over 70V. its about half the price of the cc, and should handle the low speed/high load situations better sholdn't it (trail riding/steep hills)

[gwhy!]

ok, so im 90% on getting a couple of turnigy motors...

https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224352&Location=HK
and
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161&Location=HK
http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224349
is there any difference between the 2nd two to justify the price hike?


smaller one will be for initial use while I re terminate the other in delta (new kv is old * sqrt3 right?) so new kv should be around 100ish, plus be a bit kinder on the controller than the stock 170kv...

ive also found these gearboxes...

http://www.anaheimautomation.com/products/gearbox/planetary-gearbox.php?tID=109&pt=t&cID=30



specifically the GBPH-090x-NS - 10:1 reduction. with a further ~3 to 1 to the front BB for a total of 30:1, or 133rpm at the crank, with a 40tooth bb - 30t rear this should yeild a top speed in low gear of around 24km/h in a 2.2m circumference wheel... and around 70km/h with a 11t rear (ignoring wind resistance etc)... am I right or is my math off somewhere

the max rpm imput looks like the major drawback of these gearboxes - 4000 max. so with a 50v system that means max kv of aprox 100kv, allowing for 80% loaded speed + some Vdrop should come in just under this. anyone else had dealings with these guys/boxes before? they seem quite good + strong otherwise (~140nm output torque rated, 65db noise). a bit long at 170mm but I think I can deal with that.



Still in two minds on controllers. the CC is very tempting, just pushes the budget a bit...

the other option is still a lyen 12fet, using the 3077 FETS, since this wont be going over 70V. its about half the price of the cc, and should handle the low speed/high load situations better sholdn't it (trail riding/steep hills)

I have just ordered one of the cheaper of the 2 smaller motors myself, no I cant see any difference to justify the increased price.
I have used a modded 6fet using 3077 fets with these smaller motors with good success but I have recently went to a 12fet with 3077 fets just to give more head room.

[Powdersummit]

Those planetary gearboxes look nice. I've been looking for some and prices can be painful. Those seem pretty reasonable. I have found a few that are cheaper in a nema 34 flange mounting in that 90mm size.

http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCGEARBOX.html

The specs are a little lower but unless you are dumping a ton of amps to the motor it should hold up just fine.

Back to your find, you might be able to go with the 60 series gearboxes in a 2 stage if you arn't going to be running a super high amperage. They are rated for a 6000 rpm input but have a rated output of 35 ft-lbs and a max of 70 ft-lbs. You'd have to figure you kt for the motor and find out how many amps you could push to reach the rated output. It may be boarderline but it would save some weight and some money.

[sn0wchyld]

Those planetary gearboxes look nice. I've been looking for some and prices can be painful. Those seem pretty reasonable. I have found a few that are cheaper in a nema 34 flange mounting in that 90mm size.

http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCGEARBOX.html

The specs are a little lower but unless you are dumping a ton of amps to the motor it should hold up just fine.

Back to your find, you might be able to go with the 60 series gearboxes in a 2 stage if you arn't going to be running a super high amperage. They are rated for a 6000 rpm input but have a rated output of 35 ft-lbs and a max of 70 ft-lbs. You'd have to figure you kt for the motor and find out how many amps you could push to reach the rated output. It may be boarderline but it would save some weight and some money.

yea I saw those, i think I'd rather overbuild it though, rather than try and limit the amps to have a smaller gearbox, given the fact I want headroom to run stupid power if the mood takes me. It'd probably work well on the smaller turnigy motors, but the big 80-80 and 80100's are capable of 9nm peak, after a 10:1 reduction thats 90nm, more than double the rated for the smaller gearboxes. its a shame there isnt anything in the middle. it goes form ~40nm to 140nm! I found these guys after reading about the nugarts (not sure on spelling) here on ES, and going week at the knees at the price (over 1k)!!

........
I have just ordered one of the cheaper of the 2 smaller motors myself, no I cant see any difference to justify the increased price.
I have used a modded 6fet using 3077 fets with these smaller motors with good success but I have recently went to a 12fet with 3077 fets just to give more head room.

how many amps was the 6fet managing? how much do you recon youll get out of the 12? I only ask 'cause you seem to have a bit of exp. with ebike controllers and pushing their limits!

[gwhy!]

how many amps was the 6fet managing? how much do you recon youll get out of the 12? I only ask 'cause you seem to have a bit of exp. with ebike controllers and pushing their limits!

with the smaller motors I have been pushing around 3.5kw (75A limit) through the modded 6fet without any problems the 12fet is set for the same but do actually get warmer than the 6fet but I guestimate that the 12fet will do 5-6kw (120A'ish ) as long as it do not get to hot.

[sn0wchyld]

how many amps was the 6fet managing? how much do you recon youll get out of the 12? I only ask 'cause you seem to have a bit of exp. with ebike controllers and pushing their limits!

with the smaller motors I have been pushing around 3.5kw (75A limit) through the modded 6fet without any problems the 12fet is set for the same but do actually get warmer than the 6fet but I guestimate that the 12fet will do 5-6kw (120A'ish ) as long as it do not get to hot.

how'd you find fitting halls in these motors? is it a fairly simple process? im still seesawing between the CC and a 12fet.

[gwhy!]

The halls have to be fitted externally ( i dont know anyone who has put them inside the motor ) this is a pretty easy thing to do and there is a thread on here that give a few ways of doing it. I have another thread running viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33916 about a cheap 12fet controller that I bought for something to experiment with and I found that it will run these motors sensorless so this may be a good option for you as it could be upgraded for the power but they do look like if they have a max rpm limit when used in sensorless mode but when you get the halls sorted this will enable it to run faster.

[sn0wchyld]

the 6fet your using, is it a sensor-less one from lyen? he has some sensor-less ones, but im not sure if they'll like working with these motors... be great if they did though, 99 bucks for a 3kw controller would be a great starting point I think...

...................

I have just ordered one of the cheaper of the 2 smaller motors myself, no I cant see any difference to justify the increased price.
I have used a modded 6fet using 3077 fets with these smaller motors with good success but I have recently went to a 12fet with 3077 fets just to give more head room.

so assuming the sensorless 6fet will work well enough to start with, the shopping list will be as follows...

lyen 6fet sensorless 3077 controller, likely with some forced cooling to push it to 3kw.

1 of each of these
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224161&Location=HK
https://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224352&Location=HK
Ill get the 130kv version if it comes into stock by the time I order.

RCCA, since i'll probably end up using a CC160 when I switch to the larger motor...

10s lipo 15-20 ah, using some of my first 5s packs I bought 9 months ago when I ran 20s on my HT35.

a 10:1 reduction drive from AA. lol. good name...
http://www.anaheimautomation.com/products/gearbox/planetary-gearbox.php?tID=109&pt=t&cID=30

a slipper clutch and 1:1 (1:1/2 if he can do it) pully from recumpance. I wish I could buy more of him to thank him for his time (via pm) but at this stage a CC is a bit much if the 6 fet can manage to start with...

frewheeling BB crank ~35t from sickbikeparts - anyone care to make a reccomenation in this area
-also a 11t or similar free-wheel for the box-bb

mounting hardware for 'box, motor controller and bats - locally sourced and fabricated by yours truly, with many thanks to uni for letting me use their equipment and expertise.

anything im missing let me know, even if it seems obvious as this is my first RC build and im bound to be forgetting something...
also, do people think 10g wire and 4mm bullets will handle 80-100a peaks? or should I upgrade to 6mm/8g? if i ride this anything like my current bike the cont. amps will be ~25A.