Re: avanti D8085 - maybe to be renamed D8-93??

[sn0wchyld]

I wish I was close enough to talk on the phone. I can save you a lot of grief trying to figure this whole thing out. Belts and their applications can be very frustrating to say the least........

Matt

mate if your willing to give up some time to help me out im more than happy enough to find the time (of night) to give you a call... I can just use Skype or even a phonecard... uni holidays are in full swing so time is my friend at the mo...

is there anything blaringly obvious im getting wrong here or am I just miles off in allot of areas getting a belt drive to work? I mean, I could always start with a chain reduction, but I know the noise will mean I either go to a gearbox, or belt in the near future... so seems a little inefficient... I already have a ebike running so I don't need it running immediately... though what I want is a different story

[sn0wchyld]

ok, so after going round in circles for what seems like forever, im still no closer to a final desision.

Ive got a few basic questions that I should have asked earlier...
what are the things called that allow you to fit a 10mm axle to a 5/8th" 10t cog? are they simple to make yourself/readily available?
Mounting things like the barings from Sickbikeparts to a plate of alloy or similar, what works best for this? (hey, i did say basic qs!)


After much deliberation I think I might apply KISS for the first build, and atleast get something running before trying stuff like belts/gearboxes, since its both expensive and my mechanical knowledge sucks a bit at the moment.
something like this would be a good place to start?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29531&start=15#p436828

Problem is when I look to get the necessary parts from Sickbikes it totals near $400... is this normal? I keep thinking that im buying too much...

6x Jackshaft Bearing 5/8" ID x 1 3/8" OD
$14.94
2x Keys 3/16 x 3/16 x 3/4 inch
$11.80
1x Shaft - 5/8" Keyed shaft
$11.90

1x Sprocket - 10 Tooth (standard) for Shift Kit
$16.99
1x Chainring - Freewheel - 24 Tooth
$5.95
1x Chainring - Freewheel - 36 Tooth
$7.95
1x Chainring - Freewheel - 44 Tooth
$9.95
1x Chainring - Freewheel - 48 Tooth w/chain guard
$15.95
1x Sprocket - 9 Tooth for Shift Kit
$15.99
1x Sprocket - 11 Tooth for Shift Kit
$17.99

3x Chainring mounting Hardware
$8.98

2x Front Freewheel - Heavy Duty
$139.90
1x Freewheel Adapter
$15.95
1x Set Screws 1/4-20 x 1/2
$1.95
1x HD Freewheel Removal Tool for HD freewheel
$10.95

1x CHAIN - BIKE SPEED- KMC 8X-CHAIN
$17.99
1x Chain Breaker
$9.95

1x Cranks - Freewheel Crank Set
$24.95
1x Bottom Bracket Cartridge 153 mm
$17.95

1x Lock collar 5/8"
$2.49

Arranged like this...

Sorry if the image is a bit confusing, im trying to show all the sprockets on the front of the image, as opposed to 'hidden' behind the 44t chaining.
motor nestles in between the pedals (its only a 6374 or an 8080 so should fit easy)
Total reduction 19.4:1

Someone please tell me I'm on the right track here/that this should work well to start with (ignoring noise)... I think I've over thought this rather than just buying some stuff, throwing it together, and worrying about missing parts etc later.

[bandaro]

Ok I am not really familiar with what design you are going with exactly, so I'll keep to universal stuff.

Why do you need two front drive freewheels? Also you want to order more sprockets than the pic has, I take it that is for gearing options? Also, I assume you want to fit the regular 3 sprockets on the cranks hence you are getting them, plus an extra for the motor drive. 3 sprockets is great, but make sure they will align well enough with the rear cassette, so you can actually use all 3. You could probably get the sprockets off an old bike, they are large so do not wear too fast, then if you cut some holes in the White Industries (un-toothed) freewheel they will bolt onto it, but you need longer bolts, so you may be better off getting them from a hardware store rather than online, to make sure they are long enough.

Check what speeds you will be geared for, because your reduction sounds very low if using a regular size front sprocket, even at 24 volts it will be too fast to peddle with, and there is no point gearing it for speeds you will never and could never reach. 24 volts will give the cranks over 200 rpm, now imagine the bike speed if you pedalled that fast, sprints top at around 120rpm, onroad commuting at 80 ish.

If I have missed anything let me know, hate to have overlooked something basic and give bad advice.

[sn0wchyld]

Ok I am not really familiar with what design you are going with exactly, so I'll keep to universal stuff.

Why do you need two front drive freewheels? Also you want to order more sprockets than the pic has, I take it that is for gearing options? Also, I assume you want to fit the regular 3 sprockets on the cranks hence you are getting them, plus an extra for the motor drive. 3 sprockets is great, but make sure they will align well enough with the rear cassette, so you can actually use all 3. You could probably get the sprockets off an old bike, they are large so do not wear too fast, then if you cut some holes in the White Industries (un-toothed) freewheel they will bolt onto it, but you need longer bolts, so you may be better off getting them from a hardware store rather than online, to make sure they are long enough.

Check what speeds you will be geared for, because your reduction sounds very low if using a regular size front sprocket, even at 24 volts it will be too fast to peddle with, and there is no point gearing it for speeds you will never and could never reach. 24 volts will give the cranks over 200 rpm, now imagine the bike speed if you pedalled that fast, sprints top at around 120rpm, onroad commuting at 80 ish.

If I have missed anything let me know, hate to have overlooked something basic and give bad advice.

yea ive ordered a couple extra for the reason you said... also to allow myself to do a 3 stage reduction if necessary. ill be using a re-terminated 170kv motor to start with (100kv), at 10s lipo, so about 3200 loaded speed, 160rpm at the crank (a little high, hence the option of using a 3rd reduction). I'll be replacing it with a rewound 80100 (55kv) as funds allow (either getting thud to do it or rewinding it myself), in the mean time I'd like to get something going, even if it doesn't work perfectly I'll be able to learn allot... hopefully!

reason (I thought) for the 2 front drive free wheels is so when you pedal you dont turn the motor as well... you need 1 free wheel for your pedals, and 1 for the motor right?

just 1 speed crank, Im not that interested in pedalling with the motor at this stage, more of a 'get me home' feature if anything breaks..

Cheers for the help guys, this threads getting too long with nothing concrete to show for it yet, im thinking I might just order the parts and if it doesn't work out/I needed less or more parts I'll just chalk it up as research losses. Just trying to minimise those since im living off student funds atm.

[sn0wchyld]

ok so its been a while since I've updated this one... needless to say I was getting frustrated with myself with the indecision and lack of progress... so shortly after my last post i said 'fuckit' and went out and ordered some stuff. the list from sickbikes was pretty much as above, minus some stuff that i figure'd I could do without due to the purchase of one of these...

$(KGrHqQOKjQE5,71U1U+BOlNn45L(Q~~_3.JPG (30 KiB) Viewed 2860 times

except the ple80 version... couldn't find a pic of the '80.
stoked... many thanks to timma for putting me on to the seller and a killer deal. makes the reduction side of things a bit easier.

also bought a couple of SS190-200 controllers from HK, after reading bzhwindtalker's success with this...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30490 hopefully I can gain some extra low-end torque with the use of a 36-11 tooth rear freewheel.

Ive got basically everything I need in my hands already, and more than enough to start. just wating on a RC CA to control the ss190-200 RC controllers I've bought (a few as backups/to be used for future electric mountain board) and a few minor bits from HK.

Im heading into the uni workshop tomorow to start laying stuff out!
in the mean time ive been working on my first build... mx rim, thicker spokes, drilled side covers on the HT + forced air, temp alarms etc etc. working great now, aside from the bearings have just bitten the dust

[Timma2500]

Good decision getting the PLE80 dude! What ratio and input/output shaft sizes did you end up getting?

Can't wait to see how the controllers work out, i suspect using them with a mid-drive should give them a reasonably easy run compared to a single speed setup
Hopefully you won't need the spare

Re the RC CA, how do you get ahold of these, just email Justin? How much are they Sn0wy? I'd like to get one for my 80-100 / HV140 build.

Can't wait to see this come together


Paul

[sn0wchyld]

Good decision getting the PLE80 dude! What ratio and input/output shaft sizes did you end up getting?

Can't wait to see how the controllers work out, i suspect using them with a mid-drive should give them a reasonably easy run compared to a single speed setup
Hopefully you won't need the spare

Re the RC CA, how do you get ahold of these, just email Justin? How much are they Sn0wy? I'd like to get one for my 80-100 / HV140 build.

Can't wait to see this come together


Paul

yea just mail justin, he'll send you a 'secret link' there roughly the same as a normal ca, and the shunts are exactly the same, about $18.

Cant remember the input shaft, I need to fab one as it came without. shoulnt be too hard... i hope. output looks like a 20mm keyed. its a 5:1, so the strongest of the single stages!

RE the controllers, yea I'm fairly confident given the success the aforementioned guy had with em on a single speed.

And yea, I cant wait either. be great to have 2 bikes running, both for backup and for fun!

[bandaro]

Sounding like it's all coming together now! I've been in the good old uni workshop this week as well making a freewheel adapter prototype, but I should be running by weekend. I have a pondering though, I have avoided using a ple or spur gears for their weight, so I have had trouble trying to get a small reduction as a result, so I would be interested to hear what your take on the weight issue is, and if my thinking has been rational and justified or not... those ple 80's are very nice...

But anyway, best of luck chucking it all together, can't wait to hear the results of the bike, and that motor alteration.

[sn0wchyld]

this is a slow build, but its getting there, slowly but surely. heres the latest array of picas. sorry for the distortion, it was taken with the gopro.

GOPR0100 (Small).JPG (84.16 KiB) Viewed 2480 times

one side of the mounting plate, with the PLE and 8085 attached. Fortunatly the PLE came with a mounting plate, about 40mm deep, otherwise It'd be shorter than the 8085 and require a spacer to get its 'output shaft' beyond the outside of the 8085.

GOPR0103 (Small).JPG (69.41 KiB) Viewed 2480 times

PLE input on the left, 8085 axle on the right. Just a couple of spare screws to mount them for now. Ill probably manage chain tension with a roller, rather than cutting slots for the motor. Chain tension from the 'box to the BB will be managed by moving the entire unit up or down the frame.

GOPR0105 (Small).JPG (69.55 KiB) Viewed 2480 times

GOPR0104 (Small).JPG (82.63 KiB) Viewed 2480 times

As you can see, I can afford to shave some more material off the PLE's base plate, which I probably will to get the whole package to be more 'slim' and ensure it fits between the pedals. Also need to cut down the 8085 axle and then I can add in the brackets to attach it to the bike frame. The plan at this stage is to have one in between the motor/gearbox and one infront of the 'box, with a thinner base plate to protect them both from the elements and any potential knocks from rough terrain. I'm hoping to fit it all between the pedals, with the motor pretty much directly below the BB, and the PLE mounted just far enough forward to be able to drive the cranks.

Ill be using the same HK 200A SS controller as bzhwindtalker used in his 20inch build here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30490 with good succes, and with the extra gears it should manage even better! Best part is that even if it blows, at just over $30 each delivered, i'm not too fussed! If I do end up killing more than 1, I might try converting this to a single or a twin 6374 drive to make life easyer on the controller/s.

Fortunatly 90% of the battery wireing's already done, as a legacy from the 20s pack I had on the norko (before switching to 24s). So once this part's done its just a matter of rigging up a case for 'em, adding in some basic mounts for the controller and other assorted parts, and we're in business! Uni exams are comming up in just over a month, so I suspect I'll be done sometime soon after that.

[neptronix]

Cool! I like it!

[sn0wchyld]

Progress is slow at the moment... exams are coming up so they get more attention for now!

I did want to ask though, what would people reccomend for chains? would 219# chain handle an 80100 or 8085 on full song? (~50v/~100-150A)? or should I go with #35? I'll be using bike chain to start with but I doubt it'll last long, so the next project is going to be a left side drive with a dog box or a twin motor setup for the norko... I want to start making plans now though. cheers all.

[Thud]

Both will barley notice an 80-100

219 chain is typicly a better grade than #35 (but you can get HQ #35)..finding 219 drive sprockets is the trick. (be ready to do some fabbing)

I lean toward #35 for low cost accross the board...& sprocket availability. but it's horses for courses.

[sn0wchyld]

Both will barley notice an 80-100

219 chain is typicly a better grade than #35 (but you can get HQ #35)..finding 219 drive sprockets is the trick. (be ready to do some fabbing)

I lean toward #35 for low cost accross the board...& sprocket availability. but it's horses for courses.

cheers for the advice mate.

just for future thought... would 219 handle a twin 8085 setup, say, about 8kw peak?

I did notice that larger sprockets of 219 are common as mud on the bay, and looks like you can get some pretty massive tooth numbers in a small size too, but drive sprokets are almost nowhere to be found! is it hard to make drive sprockets? any advice on the smallest drive sprocket you'd go for?

[Thud]

219 is the perfered Kart racing chain & would be fine for almost any build with rc motors (or multiple motors)
you can get a 12t drive sprocket with a flange for mounting to a kart clutch that is the easyest to adapt to.

somthing like this:

amsprocket-outer.jpg (54.42 KiB) Viewed 2199 times

[gwhy!]

When the company 'oset' new 20" trials bike goes on sell 'next month ' there will be spares available and I know they will be using a 10t and 11t 219 front sprockets and I think these will be 12mm id with either a grub of they may be D, I will try and find out exactly what fitting it will be I think they are getting them made specially so I have no idea what the price will be.

Edit just thought I would mention also that a 10 and 11t #35 sprockets work ok with 219 chain but nothing bigger

[Ratking]

Ive been pushing 150A trough 35# chain without any noticeable stretch(With two 80-100). Have only about 15 km with pretty hard testing, but should withstand a bit.
I also have problems with finding 210 drive sprockets, so I am trying to get a timing belt solution that is bomb proof with minimized noise. Will stick to 35# until it fails though. That will be shortly I think, since I got new fresh batteries ready for action


Edit:

There are "cheap" solutions for the CC hv160 at ebay too, if you can't get it anywhere else. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Castle-Creation ... 5ae7154b04
That price is hard to beat I think, not that I have a clue what others want, just a guess.

Edit 2:
I am using a 25# chain in my first stage, a 35# chain must then be bomb proof with that motor, my bad

[neptronix]

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/sprockets_main.html

^-- sprocket heaven

Not sure if it'd be economical for you to order from the USA tho..

[sn0wchyld]

Ive been pushing 150A trough 35# chain without any noticeable stretch(With two 80-100). Have only about 15 km with pretty hard testing, but should withstand a bit.
I also have problems with finding 210 drive sprockets, so I am trying to get a timing belt solution that is bomb proof with minimized noise. Will stick to 35# until it fails though. That will be shortly I think, since I got new fresh batteries ready for action


Edit:

There are "cheap" solutions for the CC hv160 at ebay too, if you can't get it anywhere else. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Castle-Creation ... 5ae7154b04
That price is hard to beat I think, not that I have a clue what others want, just a guess.

Edit 2:
I am using a 25# chain in my first stage, a 35# chain must then be bomb proof with that motor, my bad

great find with the ice mate! thats about $100 cheaper than anywhere ive found. I was tossing up between a HK knockoff of the hv160 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24180__Turnigy_dlux_160A_HV_Brushless_Speed_Controller_OPTO_AUS_Warehouse_.html) or a 9fet lyen with 3077's but this puts the CC's back on the cards.

Where'd you get your drive sprockets for the #25?

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/sprockets_main.html

^-- sprocket heaven

Not sure if it'd be economical for you to order from the USA tho..

cheers for the link mate, those guys have some great stuff, but looks like shipping of 1 $12 sprocket to aus though is about $40 ! means I have to order a bunch to make it worth while. Kind of annoying given china and the UK have such small shipping costs for small stuff like this but its the US that has heaps of these kind of parts available.

cant wait to get this puppy running... then I can start work on the norko!

[bandaro]

A place I have found good for stuff is www.smallparts.com.au, great variety of stuff, 11 bucks shipping; www.piesau.com.au has a heap of belt stuff and www.minibearing.com.au, very similar to smallparts.

For overseas items/multiple items, these guys are cheap, but I have never used them: www.surpluscentre.com and www.technobotsonline.com

Good luck with the build, keen to see how it is going.

[sn0wchyld]

A place I have found good for stuff is http://www.smallparts.com.au, great variety of stuff, 11 bucks shipping; http://www.piesau.com.au has a heap of belt stuff and http://www.minibearing.com.au, very similar to smallparts.

For overseas items/multiple items, these guys are cheap, but I have never used them: http://www.surpluscentre.com and http://www.technobotsonline.com

Good luck with the build, keen to see how it is going.

awsome mate thanks for that, I didn't think to look at smallparts! I looked at em ages ago when I first started with ebikes, trying to find a 90deg gearbox that'd handle ~10-20nm . Looks like they're actually the online distributor for minibearing.com.au... hence the similarity between the sites.

looks like 219's the go for now... a tad cheaper for sprockets and the size of the larger ones makes for easy reductions.

has anyone had much experience with one way bearings? I read somewhere that they're not as good as a freewheel but thought I'd ask... would they be ok if they were on the motor axle? ie only dealing with the ~9nm that the motor will put out rather than upwards of 50 nm further down the line?

also, is 6.35mm pitch cogs the right stuff for 219 chain? or is it 8mm?

[Miles]

also, is 6.35mm pitch cogs the right stuff for 219 chain? or is it 8mm?

Neither. You need #219 specific sprockets. #219 is 0.306" (7.8mm) pitch.

[gwhy!]

also, is 6.35mm pitch cogs the right stuff for 219 chain? or is it 8mm?

Neither. You need #219 specific sprockets. #219 is 0.306" (7.77mm) pitch.

the #35 small sprockets 10 and 11t do work ok with 219 chain

edit: I just checked its 8mm sorry thought it was #35

[Miles]

That makes sense. I was just about to query the 1.8mm difference in pitch...

[sn0wchyld]

damn, this is taking ages. been flat out with uni recently... so ive had little time to spend on the bike. its getting there, just veeerrryy slowly. which is frustrating given my other ebike is in pieces too, so ive nothing to ride right now!

the motor/box is mounted now and running, pretty much all I have to do is mount the batteries and the rest of the electronics and its running! probably going to take me another month or two the way uni's going though.

1st reduction stage


with cover on, had to cut out a small section when I misjudged the depth.


underside view, and some of the foam used to shape the covers/battery cases.


its pretty damn noisy, particularly after using a hub, but will hopefully be able to reduce that by getting the chain alignment just right.

I was pretty pissed off with myself at one point... I was planning on having the motor on the other side of the gearbox, right below the BB. But I stupidly drilled the plate for the motor on backwards... it turned out to be a blessing in disguise, as it turns out it would have been very hard/impossible to fit that close to the pedals... I'm thinking I'll use one or two of the 6374's instead at some point, but for now this mount is done, so ill stick with it till I get something else built that fits better.

[spinningmagnets]

I'm thinking I'll use one or two of the 63-74's instead at some point

I think you'll find that the higher kVs and the lighter copper mass inside the 63mm motors will make them a pain to use in this application. I believe the 80mm outrunner motors are the perfect size for this...