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Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Powdersummit » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:53 am

How is the progress on your trail drive coming? I like the idea of mac ran through the chain, quiet and powerful. How big is the diameter of the mac minus the spoke flange? The front tire does seem close to the motor, I don't see it hitting but other bikes out there may not have enough room to make it work.

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:27 pm

Well, hopefully I will get to it this weekend, but that might not happen, I still have a few little bits to finish on my brothers build and then I can get to it. BELIEVE ME I really want to get to it! LOL!

As for the motor clearance, the diameter is about 5" if I remember correctly, so yes, some bikes may not fit it, but out of the four I have at home, they all should clear..
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Rassy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Whiplash, what are you going to use to cut the spoke flange off? I should have done that on the 9C that I shoehorned onto my trike. If I ever do another one that should be the first step. I don't have much in the way of machining tools, just a cheap drill press, saber saw, and an angle grinder.
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Well, I am going to use my lathe most likely, but I am sure you could simply clamp the axle in a vise and plug the motor into the controller and power it up, then just grind it off till you are happy! I WOULD CLOSELY WATCH HOW HOT YOU LET IT GET and use the nastiest grit disk you can find, The flapper type will not vibrate the motor much at all compared to a hard disk... I used this trick many times with other things before I got the lathe...
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby REdiculous » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:14 pm

I think frocks are big and slow enough that you don't need to be that precise. I'd probably get most of the flange off w/ a good grinder and then spin the motor up and clean it up w/ a rasp and sandpaper real quick. :)
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Powdersummit » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:50 pm

Around 5 inches is all it is? From what I could gather the spoke flange holes were at about 6.7" diameter. I didn't think it could go down that far, but I have been wrong many times before. I've been trying to find detailed dimensions on the Mac but not having much luck. I can't wait to see what you come up with. I think this would be a kick in the pants on a DH Bike if you could get a quiet 3kw out.
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:17 am

I am pretty confident it will take over 2k reliably maybe 3k burst,
But I guess ill find out! As for the motor, its a little over 6" without the spoke flange..
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:52 pm

Well, I finally can take a look at this again since I finished my brothers build.. I looked a little closer and with a bit of axle trimming I can get a lot more room for tire clearance! As this sits it would be fine, but after trimming the spoke flanges I will have no worries at all! Hopefully this weekend I can get some time to look into the bottom bracket mount, I am hoping that will end up the being fairly easy as I am thinking some tubing with a washer welded on either end that fits under one side of the the bottom bracket threads and then a nut that goes over the other side. Nice and clean! We will see how it goes, but I want it to fit a wide variety of frames and this is about the only way...
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Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Powdersummit » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:59 am

The more I see this setup the more I'm in love with it. I was thinking that for frames this normally wouldn't fit in would be to cut the down tube out and reinforce where you cut out with steel and some good epoxy. It would get the motor back and make it look cleaner. With the right mounting this system could look really clean.

If you build your mount so that you could place your controller above the motor and somewhat attached to the downtube it would clean up the lines and make it a one piece unit with only a few groups of wires entering it. Good luck, I know I'm looking forward to how it works.

Where abouts are you located at? I could do some machine work for you if needed.

Carl
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:33 am

Im in California, and thanks! I don't suppose you have a laser cutter or CNC plasma cutter do you? I will need to get the brackets cut out in quantity once its all figured out.. I have a small lathe/mill in the garage

As for the frame cutting, if it works well I am planning on getting a TIG Welder and do just that! I may even start dabbing frames as well if it works as well as I hope!

There are a few people doing some real mice MID drive stuff, but my plan is to offer a QUALITY low cost alternative, and I think this will fit the bill nicely! If my 6t MAC can get me to 42mph with 1500 watts then once I get this baby dialed in with the right gearing I should be able to have crazy climbing power in low gear and 40+ mph on the top end! The best of the both worlds! We will see!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Powdersummit » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:26 pm

Sorry no plasma, laser or waterjet where I work. We mainly do stuff out of bar stock and the way we do plate material is less than efficient. The cost shouldn't be too bad getting it cut on a plasma table or even a waterjet for that matter. The brackets shouldn't be too complex to cut out and not that much material. Finding the right shop they could probably also do the bending on a decent brake.

On your design, do you think you are going to have any problems with the torque from the motor? I would imagine that the wheel axles will have to be pretty solidly mounted. What are you going to be running for gearing from the motor to the crank? I work through spreadsheets figuring how much crank speed and torque I can get but in the end they are just a bunch of numbers and don't mean that much, guess it's been too long since I've had a decent physics class. Are you going to put a freewheel on the motor hub or just use the freewheeling action of the motor as the freewheel?

A Tig welder is on my wishlist but for a good one that can do aluminum is pretty spendy. I think there are quite a few people who don't realize what an art Tig welding can be. I did a little in high school but then it's been mainly stick and Mig from there. Keep up the good work.

Carl
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:24 pm

Yeah, ill likely just draw them up and then manually cut them for the first set using the laser printer and sticky back paper trick..
As for the TIG, I have 100's of hours under the mask, I just don't have the machine anymore.
I think the brackets will be made out of thin but very rigid Chromoly plate and then ill have a small torque arm that will bolt to the thin plate to keep as light as possible. As for it torquing over, im fairly sure it'll be fine since my other drive with an RC motor had no problems ....
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:25 pm

Well, im cutting the first set of brackets as soon as I finish typing this! Hopefully I will get it bolted on tonight!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Powdersummit » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:43 pm

Way to go, I've been waiting for some updates. I figured that with holidays you've been as busy as the rest of us. Can't wait to see it all together and running.

Carl
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:50 pm

Lunchtime progress pics!
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resize122611134754.jpg
resize122611134718.jpg
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:06 pm

For the most part im done! Just need a little tidying up and then shorten the axles a bit and im ready to wire it up! Oh, I need a sprocket too, I think a fixie cog should do it and then I can try it out! Ill likely re do this setup to narrow it down once I have proven the concept and had a bit of fun with it. Anyway here you go!
Attachments
resize122611180201.jpg
resize122611180226.jpg
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Alan B » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:39 am

Is the tension of the chain under load going to collapse your z-bends?
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Chambers » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:17 am

Alan B wrote:Is the tension of the chain under load going to collapse your z-bends?


If so a simple gusset (or two) could fix it.
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Alan B » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:49 am

This is a geared hubmotor thrusting at a small radius. The forces are not small.
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby bandaro » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:05 am

Looks nice, I'm sure the chain tension will flex the z, enough to cause problems will be obvious first ride, and as someone said, a small amount of re-inforcement will solve it, a tiny rib would be enough, or angle riveted on.

My concern though is the way the hub slips in, I would imagine having it slip in from the front would take the load off the bolts holding it in, and make it easy to take the hub on and off for inspection without needing to take the plates off as well. As it is, you could have the same torque problems people have regarding the hubs slipping out of the frame.

So are you making a tube clamp or do you have one already? please say you have one so the video will be sooner...
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:44 am

For this version since its for my personal bike that has thread inserts I will simply bolt the upper struts in place but future models will be a tube clamp still to be determined for general sale. As others have stated, if it bends the "z" sections ill simply reinforce them, and yes after building it I may redesign to bring the hub in from the front, this is just the "first try" of this idea, I will refine as I go. Its much easier that way and u get to test it sooner! Lol!

I should ne able to have it up and running by next weekend if all goes well. I will order the fixie cog this AM...
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby GrayKard » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:54 pm

Whiplash wrote:For the most part im done! Just need a little tidying up and then shorten the axles a bit and im ready to wire it up! Oh, I need a sprocket too, I think a fixie cog should do it and then I can try it out! Ill likely re do this setup to narrow it down once I have proven the concept and had a bit of fun with it. Anyway here you go!


Might want to hold off on shortening the axles. You will need the extra length for torque plates after the motor spins in those "dropouts".

Gary
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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:30 pm

Lol, I have done a few bikes now, I am fully aware of the torque, there will be torque "clamps" when its done..
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:25 am

Just ordered two 17mm shaft clamps that will be welded to the side plates and take the place of the side nuts once I shorten the axles to get this puppy finalized! I will be pinning the shaft on both sides into the clamps as well for extra anti spin holding power! This should have make a very robust axle clamping system that is also easy to incorporate into this design that will also allow the axles to be trimmed beyond the threaded ends..
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: Finally a new chapter for my Current "Trail Drive"!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:14 pm

well, I would have had it done this weekend but my parts didn't show up!! Hopefully this weekend!

On another note, I picked up some steel for my first MID DRIVE HUB specific frame build! We will see how it turns out, but its going to be a LOT simpler design than the last time I built one, this should be relatively quick to build...Square tube FTW!!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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