Letting the cat out of the bag...........

[StudEbiker]

Sounds like a great product. At that price point I think many, including myself, will be interested. Can't wait to see pictures.

[flyinmonkie]

Sounds fantastic Matt. A qaulity mid priced kit between the cyclone and the ecospeed. Also to have the variety of options (motors, ratios, batteries, etc) is a great idea. You can sell complete kits to average punters and parts to ES members.

I love watching what you come up with. I am looking forward to seeing this one. The price sounds great for what you get. Many people want the cheapest to start with, but soon upgrade when they want better quality. Others look for the middle of the road to get the quality without paying crazy prices. And of course there are those that want top of the line and pay what ever it costs.

You now provide the 2 most important segments of the market, the middle and the hight end. Let others deal with the low end as it usually doesn't have the quality that is synonomous with your name.

Clay

[recumpence]

This would be mearly impossible without the first drive systems being developed and debugged because that allowed me to make an altered version of my V4 drive that I know works and spend the new development time on the FW crank, bottom bracket mount system, and other bits I have never made before. I did the exact same thing when I developed my RC helicopter; first I developed individual upgrade parts of an existing helicopter, then using those parts as a foundation, I developed the last few bits required for a complete helicopter. The project as a whole would hvae been too time consuming and too costly to do all in one shot. Same here. This would have been a bit too big for me to do all at once, or it would have taken well over a year to do. As it is, it will take a total of about 4 months from inception to production.

Matt

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

One thing I forgot to mention about this drive system;

The motor plate can rotate on the jackshaft bearing tube identical to my V4 drive. So, the motor can be up against the under side of the downtube or swung down to be just in front of the bottm bracket, or anywhere in-between. That should help with various frame layouts because in some situations the motor would be best in one position and in other situations, it would be best in a different position.

I am doing everything I can to make this system as universally compatible as possible.

Matt

[slacker]

sounds like a great product and alternative to hub motors.this may be a stupid question but will this system work on a tadpole trike?i acquired a terratrike path dl and am exploring alternatives to hub motors.the reason i think this may be a stupid question is because of the trike in your signature and youtube videos.

[recumpence]

Yes, the drive would be under the pedal boom with the freewheel just behind the chainring. That is one application I want to make sure I cover because trike customers seem to be very open to electric systems.

Matt

[Tench]

I will look forward to seeing this, i had allready decided my next build was going to be an RC running through the gears, price sounds right to me for an out of the box solution.

Simon.

[MattyCiii]

Matt,
You clearly have a lot invested here - time and talent, yes, but real dollars too. Sadly though if the low volume sweet spot you described above s too expensive for the market sweet spot, you are the one left holding the bag.

Do you know about KickStarter (.com)? It's a place where you can essentially crowd source venture capitol for a project. People commit to buy, but if not enough leave a deposit to reach the funding goal, all bets are off for both buyers and seller. I think it's a great concept, and just this week I received a product funded through kickstarter (a new kind of bicycle lock, http://tigrlock.com/pages/).

Anyhow, $1500 is not too rich for my blood. I'll be watching closely and ordering one when the time comes.
Matt C

[maxwell92036]

Good products sell for reasonable prices and looking at your work and attention to details I am sure you will do well. You could price it at 2 dollars and some people would say that it is too much! My main sport is mountain biking and good mountain bikes start at least at $1,000 and many are over $4,000 and some over $9,000! If you want quality you have to pay for it. Right now we have been conditioned to buy cheap and then throw it away and then to move on to the next thing.

[damonjackson_spl]

Great sounding product but the most important aspect that seems to be missed is the price. Your volume could exponentially grow to massive production if you made a product better than cyclone but not as exxy as ecospeed or ego.

Still seems like a boutique type drive, need something around $800-$1000

With lower power can't you go cheaper and smaller belts?

[recumpence]

Great sounding product but the most important aspect that seems to be missed is the price. Your volume could exponentially grow to massive production if you made a product better than cyclone but not as exxy as ecospeed or ego.

Still seems like a boutique type drive, need something around $800-$1000

With lower power can't you go cheaper and smaller belts?

The problem is the very high parts count. The price of the actual drive system would not be very high. However, this system requires the drive system (100% custom parts, pulleys, torque limiter, etc, nothing off the shelf), a complete freewheeling crank with high quality freewheel and bottom bracket, second support bearing with chainring and bearing adaptor (again, custom made), frame mounts (many parts, all custom), a new motor, and a controller.

The drive will, indeed, be sexy looking. It does not take much extra time or money (almost no extra time or money) to make the system sexy looking. I have CNC machined aluminum pulleys that are wiffled with many holes and the drive is machined in a very visually appealing way.

I will have over $1,000 invested in each drive out ot my own pocket, not including the huge amount of time designing, programming, and debugging the system. Beyond that, the only way I can get my cost that low is to purchase 20 of most of the parts at a time.

The belt cost is not the main money draw. It is sheer parts count. A freewheeling crank drive system can, indeed, be made cheaper than this. However, this system is meant to be very light weight, and high quality as well as relatively quiet. Cyclone systems are innexpensive, but heavy, noisey and look like a hammer. No problem for most buyers. They fill a niche that is very large. Eco-Speed stuff is high quality, but honestly (and I am sorry to sound as though I am bashing any products) I am sorry they are CRAZY overpriced! They are, also, HUGE and use #25 pitch chains. If Eco-Speed drives were 1/2 their price, I would still find them expensive for what you get.

Lastly, as huge market is not always a good thing. This is where Eco-Speed really has it figured out. The high-end decreases overall numbers substancially, but increases profit margins. This drasticaly reduces customer support. If you sell 1,000 systems to beginners who only have a few hundred bucks to spend, you will have low profits per sale and high customer/product support. However, if you sell a hundred systems at $1,000+, your profit margine is higher per sale and customer support that is required is far lower. That means that any customer question or issue that arises can be given far more attention.

I have plenty of people willing to invest in this. I have not taken them up on it because that puts a strain on a business (many times it does), and I know I can do this without them. I am ordering enough parts to build 20 systems (some parts I can buy one at a time if I need to at no additional cost, but not the machined parts). As those sell, I will presell more kits with a modest wait time. The deposits on that second batch of drives will be used to fund the second run of parts. This is how I have funded my previous kits for both bicycles and RC helis. It works well as the deposit guarantees order volume (gives me exact numbers to work with), gives some up front capitol without a "Payback" debt, and allows me to order larger volumes of parts each time I reorder.

What I am doing, also, is constantly scanning the web looking for other motor options, controllers, etc.

Lastly, the best business model for building a company without capitol is to apeal to the high-end first, then cust costs once products are selling well. I may, indeed, look at a less costly system after this one. However, the only way to do that is to reduce parts count. That requires a direct drive (no primary belt reduction from motor to jackshaft). That means a larger far lower KV motor. That, in turn, means less power per pound. See the delema?

I am working on making the best that is not for only the ultra wealthy. Yes this system is for those who have at least a small amount of means. The being said, it could be priced nearly twice this high, make me a FORTUNE and still sell in limited quantities.

I hear ya. I would love the price to be below $1,000. I am working on cost cutting the best I can without sacrificing quality.

Matt

[sn0wchyld]

cant wait to see some pics, i'd be very interested in the reduction only product if not the whole kit at a later date... you already know matt that im starting my own mid drive build, but depending on my success in that this could be a good alternative for future builds.

any chance we can see the design pics, at least to get a better idea on how it mounts to the bike? i'd be interested to know if I could fit it on my aline...

[recumpence]

cant wait to see some pics, i'd be very interested in the reduction only product if not the whole kit at a later date... you already know matt that im starting my own mid drive build, but depending on my success in that this could be a good alternative for future builds.

any chance we can see the design pics, at least to get a better idea on how it mounts to the bike? i'd be interested to know if I could fit it on my aline...

Actually, I don't have any pictures of the frame mount that I can show. However, I can describe it for you;

It will consist (in a very basic sence) of two 3/16" thick plates that will capture the bottom bracket on each side. Those plates will capture a 5/8" thick aluminum plate between them. That plate will be retained to the frame downtube with a stainless strap (possibly a high quality hose clamp such as used on tubo kits). The drive unit, itself, will recess into a large slot in the center of that thick plate and will be able to slide forward or backward for chain adjustment.

Yes, I will be open to selling individual parts. However, right now I am very focussed on finishing the innitial prototyping as well as production. Some parts do not require prototyping and can go directly into production. Some parts are already produced and a couple need to be prototyped first. However, this system is much further along than that may make it sound. I have been designing and doing all research on this for some time now. I am quite confident that there will not be any major hickups. I have a couple concerns that I need to do some prototyping to figure out. But, nothing major.

This system is the culmination of all of the work I have done so far. I am opening up all of my bag of tricks for this. It is taking all of my knowledge to work this out, not because it is complicated, but because I am trying to simplify an otherwise complicated system.

Production and prototyping are moving faster than I originally thought. I will have something decent to show in 3 to 4 weeks with production in about 2 months at this point.

Matt

[Ron Z]

Me smells an Astro with a lower Kv, Har, Har, Har!

[recumpence]

The problem is, for direct drive (sprocket directly on the shaft) the motor would have to run WAY to slowly. An Astro would never run right at such a low RPM.

My system will be able to run Astros and RC outrunners.

The specific motor most will be speced for (for federally legal systems) will be Maxx Product's large outrunner with a custom shaft.

Matt

[johnrobholmes]

Hands up for at least one unit! I am installing one of these on a Fat bike with a nuvinci on the back. After spending some time in the garage last night I really like the idea of putting it on my Santa Cruz Bullit too! That bike just never worked well with hub motors, but it would be awesome with a mid drive!


For those wanting a lower cost, lower power, higher weight solution- I have a feeling Matt could put a kit together once the drives are tested. Next time we talk I have a really good idea for you, Matt It would still be worlds above a cyclone though.

[sn0wchyld]

cant wait to see some pics, i'd be very interested in the reduction only product if not the whole kit at a later date... you already know matt that im starting my own mid drive build, but depending on my success in that this could be a good alternative for future builds.

any chance we can see the design pics, at least to get a better idea on how it mounts to the bike? i'd be interested to know if I could fit it on my aline...

Actually, I don't have any pictures of the frame mount that I can show. However, I can describe it for you;

It will consist (in a very basic sence) of two 3/16" thick plates that will capture the bottom bracket on each side. Those plates will capture a 5/8" thick aluminum plate between them. That plate will be retained to the frame downtube with a stainless strap (possibly a high quality hose clamp such as used on tubo kits). The drive unit, itself, will recess into a large slot in the center of that thick plate and will be able to slide forward or backward for chain adjustment.

Yes, I will be open to selling individual parts. However, right now I am very focussed on finishing the innitial prototyping as well as production. Some parts do not require prototyping and can go directly into production. Some parts are already produced and a couple need to be prototyped first. However, this system is much further along than that may make it sound. I have been designing and doing all research on this for some time now. I am quite confident that there will not be any major hickups. I have a couple concerns that I need to do some prototyping to figure out. But, nothing major.

This system is the culmination of all of the work I have done so far. I am opening up all of my bag of tricks for this. It is taking all of my knowledge to work this out, not because it is complicated, but because I am trying to simplify an otherwise complicated system.

Production and prototyping are moving faster than I originally thought. I will have something decent to show in 3 to 4 weeks with production in about 2 months at this point.

Matt

lol i've had similar thoughts myself... damn shame production's still a couple of months out or I'd be in already, but this sounds about perfect for my norko in the future, since modding that frame is almost blasphemy!

from what you were saying earlier, do you also have a 3rd plate to support the BB on the drive side from the twisting forces?

it really is awsome to see how the world of ebikes is progressing, i think i've joined the party at just the right time!

[waxman123]

Matt

I have been waiting for you to come up with a mid drive application!!! I have owned and tried the Eco speed system CONS: too big and mount fit funny, ended up cutting a pasting my own version. Also the gear box was chinsy and unit was slow in my opinion at 48V and 1000 watts PROS: controller was real good and easy to work with, easy to install. Next I have made a cyclone set up using a controller from Lyen (programmable) CONS: too big, loud, coming up with a mounting set up. PROS: fast, with Lyen contoller and three speed switch best of all world!!!

I had also two years ago tried a astro based mid drive using a nuegart reduction unit. CONS: Astro motor just spins at such high RPMS hard to control the torque, controller and programming difficult, loud, volitle electrically, hair trigger throttle. PROS: small and sexy, cool

If you are able to fix the CONS from my own attempt at the RC build then you will have a winner for sure. Put me down for a complete system (minus the battery). As for the cost you make it what ever you need to to make a good profit. Things that are quality cost money, if they want cheap they can buy a cyclone set up.

One question are you going to make it so it fits a 68 and 72 bottom brackets? The 72 is what most if not all mountain bikes are these days!! Can not wait so hurry up and finish them!!!

[recumpence]

Yes, the mount side plates are reverseable to allow the use of one bottom bracket or the other. No problem!

Matt

[maxwell92036]

It probably won't fit a 100MM bottom bracket shell? That is what my Pugsley fat tire bike has.

[johnrobholmes]

It will be made to work, because my Pugsley is getting a kit too!

[recumpence]

The mount kit can be easily spaced with longer bolts and simple spacers to bring the left side plate out to any bottom bracket length.

Matt

[deVries]

#4 The freewheeling crank. This is one thing I am really excited about! It will use a second support bearing to eliminate the overloaded freewheel bearing issue that is so common with freewheeling cranks. It will also use standard 130mm BCD chainrings for multiple ratio options. I am very excited to have come up with a solution to the FW crank bearing issue. I am not the first to do this, but I think it is the first to be readily available. My system will come with this new FW crank system and a new lengthened bottom bracket.

Will this work on any BB diameter & width, i.e. Old School SS American BB shell w/larger diameter? So, essentially, we will install a new BB crank-axle, bearings, with new crankarms, and chainrings with drive chainring freewheeling?

It will be made to work, because my Pugsley is getting a kit too!

John, what rims & tires do you plan to use?

Look forward to pics/vid of a prototype installed on a Matt MD eBike

[johnrobholmes]

I'm going to use large marge rims and whatever stock tires are.

[walshcore]

Hi,

Like a fellow poster further back, I've pretty much been a bit of a lurker on this forum,though its a great place for good chat and info (lost a few hours in reading through muchos old threads lol...anyway been loggin in infrequently to check out latest dev, particularly from Mr Shumaker, and now I'm really interested !...price wise? from my point quality is paramount,i'd much rather outlay now and not have to later...as my old gran used to say 'buy shit buy twice'..albeit I changed a word from 'cheap' !!

Cheers.