Letting the cat out of the bag...........

[johnrobholmes]

Hands up for at least one unit! I am installing one of these on a Fat bike with a nuvinci on the back. After spending some time in the garage last night I really like the idea of putting it on my Santa Cruz Bullit too! That bike just never worked well with hub motors, but it would be awesome with a mid drive!


For those wanting a lower cost, lower power, higher weight solution- I have a feeling Matt could put a kit together once the drives are tested. Next time we talk I have a really good idea for you, Matt It would still be worlds above a cyclone though.

[sn0wchyld]

cant wait to see some pics, i'd be very interested in the reduction only product if not the whole kit at a later date... you already know matt that im starting my own mid drive build, but depending on my success in that this could be a good alternative for future builds.

any chance we can see the design pics, at least to get a better idea on how it mounts to the bike? i'd be interested to know if I could fit it on my aline...

Actually, I don't have any pictures of the frame mount that I can show. However, I can describe it for you;

It will consist (in a very basic sence) of two 3/16" thick plates that will capture the bottom bracket on each side. Those plates will capture a 5/8" thick aluminum plate between them. That plate will be retained to the frame downtube with a stainless strap (possibly a high quality hose clamp such as used on tubo kits). The drive unit, itself, will recess into a large slot in the center of that thick plate and will be able to slide forward or backward for chain adjustment.

Yes, I will be open to selling individual parts. However, right now I am very focussed on finishing the innitial prototyping as well as production. Some parts do not require prototyping and can go directly into production. Some parts are already produced and a couple need to be prototyped first. However, this system is much further along than that may make it sound. I have been designing and doing all research on this for some time now. I am quite confident that there will not be any major hickups. I have a couple concerns that I need to do some prototyping to figure out. But, nothing major.

This system is the culmination of all of the work I have done so far. I am opening up all of my bag of tricks for this. It is taking all of my knowledge to work this out, not because it is complicated, but because I am trying to simplify an otherwise complicated system.

Production and prototyping are moving faster than I originally thought. I will have something decent to show in 3 to 4 weeks with production in about 2 months at this point.

Matt

lol i've had similar thoughts myself... damn shame production's still a couple of months out or I'd be in already, but this sounds about perfect for my norko in the future, since modding that frame is almost blasphemy!

from what you were saying earlier, do you also have a 3rd plate to support the BB on the drive side from the twisting forces?

it really is awsome to see how the world of ebikes is progressing, i think i've joined the party at just the right time!

[waxman123]

Matt

I have been waiting for you to come up with a mid drive application!!! I have owned and tried the Eco speed system CONS: too big and mount fit funny, ended up cutting a pasting my own version. Also the gear box was chinsy and unit was slow in my opinion at 48V and 1000 watts PROS: controller was real good and easy to work with, easy to install. Next I have made a cyclone set up using a controller from Lyen (programmable) CONS: too big, loud, coming up with a mounting set up. PROS: fast, with Lyen contoller and three speed switch best of all world!!!

I had also two years ago tried a astro based mid drive using a nuegart reduction unit. CONS: Astro motor just spins at such high RPMS hard to control the torque, controller and programming difficult, loud, volitle electrically, hair trigger throttle. PROS: small and sexy, cool

If you are able to fix the CONS from my own attempt at the RC build then you will have a winner for sure. Put me down for a complete system (minus the battery). As for the cost you make it what ever you need to to make a good profit. Things that are quality cost money, if they want cheap they can buy a cyclone set up.

One question are you going to make it so it fits a 68 and 72 bottom brackets? The 72 is what most if not all mountain bikes are these days!! Can not wait so hurry up and finish them!!!

[recumpence]

Yes, the mount side plates are reverseable to allow the use of one bottom bracket or the other. No problem!

Matt

[maxwell92036]

It probably won't fit a 100MM bottom bracket shell? That is what my Pugsley fat tire bike has.

[johnrobholmes]

It will be made to work, because my Pugsley is getting a kit too!

[recumpence]

The mount kit can be easily spaced with longer bolts and simple spacers to bring the left side plate out to any bottom bracket length.

Matt

[deVries]

#4 The freewheeling crank. This is one thing I am really excited about! It will use a second support bearing to eliminate the overloaded freewheel bearing issue that is so common with freewheeling cranks. It will also use standard 130mm BCD chainrings for multiple ratio options. I am very excited to have come up with a solution to the FW crank bearing issue. I am not the first to do this, but I think it is the first to be readily available. My system will come with this new FW crank system and a new lengthened bottom bracket.

Will this work on any BB diameter & width, i.e. Old School SS American BB shell w/larger diameter? So, essentially, we will install a new BB crank-axle, bearings, with new crankarms, and chainrings with drive chainring freewheeling?

It will be made to work, because my Pugsley is getting a kit too!

John, what rims & tires do you plan to use?

Look forward to pics/vid of a prototype installed on a Matt MD eBike

[johnrobholmes]

I'm going to use large marge rims and whatever stock tires are.

[walshcore]

Hi,

Like a fellow poster further back, I've pretty much been a bit of a lurker on this forum,though its a great place for good chat and info (lost a few hours in reading through muchos old threads lol...anyway been loggin in infrequently to check out latest dev, particularly from Mr Shumaker, and now I'm really interested !...price wise? from my point quality is paramount,i'd much rather outlay now and not have to later...as my old gran used to say 'buy shit buy twice'..albeit I changed a word from 'cheap' !!

Cheers.

[deVries]

#4 The freewheeling crank. This is one thing I am really excited about! It will use a second support bearing to eliminate the overloaded freewheel bearing issue that is so common with freewheeling cranks. It will also use standard 130mm BCD chainrings for multiple ratio options. I am very excited to have come up with a solution to the FW crank bearing issue. I am not the first to do this, but I think it is the first to be readily available. My system will come with this new FW crank system and a new lengthened bottom bracket.

freewheeling crank is crank arms, bottom bracket, spindle, retainer, spacer, bearing, sprocket adaptor, White Industries freewheel, two chainrings, bolts, etc.

Matt, please fill-in some more info here... what part of the freewheeling crank set-up is custom made & not off the shelf?

It seems your solution is to take-out the standard BB innards & crank, and, then, replace those parts with your parts. IOW, we'll strip out existing BB parts to leave just the empty BB shell to install & retrofit your parts extending the BB width which is flexible using spacers for variable widths What is the minimum width of your extended BB

What about BB with a larger BB shell diameter? Can your design work with larger diameter shells? What diameters? For example, the Old School American large diameter BB used for single speeds.

Thanks.

[recumpence]

It has been a while and I have recieved a lot of PMs with questions about this new drive as well as requests to preorder them. I am not taking preorders yet. But, I am moving forward with this. The reason I have not posted any progress pictures is because there was not anything Earth-shattering to report. I have been, mostly, designing, refining, and simplifying various parts and sub systems of this drive (I think I have it reduced to the simplest layout possible at this point). I have, also, been meeting with the motor manufacturer and my machineshops as well as various other individuals who's advice I covet.

Anyway, here is where the mechanical side is at this point. I have the large pulleys in stock and the mount foot for the drive. I machined one frame mount plate on the manual mill to give you an idea of how the system will mount. The flat plate is, obviously, not finished. It is just a plate I had lying around to do some test fitting with.

Here are some pictures. The parts are just laying there to give you an idea of their general layout and what the kit will look like. You can see the drive fits very tight up against the downtube. The thick baseplate will be captured on the left and right sides of the bottom bracket shell. The front of the plate will simply strap or clamp to the downtube with a simple large stainless clamp. Simple......

Oh, this is NOT the motor the drive will use. It is just a motor I had lying around to set on the drive for pictures! The drive will use a custom motor based around the Maxx Products 6320 and 6332 motors. It will, also, be available with an Astro motor.

These pictures are of a 60 tooth crank sprocket. The stock system will, most likely, come with a 56 tooth Origin 8 brand chainring.

If you look closely, you will see that the motor plate can rotate around the jackshaft bearing tube to swing down under the bottom bracket (kind of in front of the bottom bracket). This may be needed for some bikes for front wheel clearance, but it is doubtful. However, it was not any more difficult to design the system this way than not. So, I decided to leave motor placement adjustable by the end user. Simply loosten two pinch bolts, swing the motor to the new position, and tighten them back down. That is it.

I will post more pictures and info as I have it.

Matt

[RWP]

Just BEAUTIFUL...as usual.

[farmkid4]

WOW!!
Stunning as ever you do beautiful work!

[Whiplash]

That little motor almost looks lost in there with all that billet! Lol! Beautiful work as usual!

[Kin]

Hey, I know you are probably overwhelmed with various PMs and other details. And, you know, working on the system. I just wanted to make a plug for a surprisingly affordable waterjet cutting company, since you said part of the high cost comes in the small parts and custom designs for them and that's kind of frustrating. bigbluesaw.com, they do waterjet and laser cutting in various materials. I'm just curious if certain parts can be made cheaper from them either through lamination construction or when the piece is thin. I've heard of people 2D cutting a chainring and then filing down the teeth profile for high count chainring at a lower price (actually when I finally get to it I was planning that for my 20" bike unless I can snag a high count ring at a more reasonable price elsewhere). Anyway, these are just some side points. I have not used the company yet, but it was recommended by a trustworthy acquaintance as a good place. My main thing is that I've gotten automated quotes on several different projects/ideas that were *much* cheaper than local shops [they calculate the cost on price with a formula like ponoko and the other type of on-demand sites]. -End plug. not affiliated at all. By the way, by 'lamination method', I mean, building up a 1.5" part with 3 0.5" lasercut pieces that are then epoxied together.

[deVries]

#4 The freewheeling crank. This is one thing I am really excited about! It will use a second support bearing to eliminate the overloaded freewheel bearing issue that is so common with freewheeling cranks. It will also use standard 130mm BCD chainrings for multiple ratio options. I am very excited to have come up with a solution to the FW crank bearing issue. I am not the first to do this, but I think it is the first to be readily available. My system will come with this new FW crank system and a new lengthened bottom bracket.

freewheeling crank is crank arms, bottom bracket, spindle, retainer, spacer, bearing, sprocket adaptor, White Industries freewheel, two chainrings, bolts, etc.

Matt, can you fill-in some more info here... as your pics aren't showing the freewheeling crank bearing setup w/2nd support bearing??? Give us some drawings or pics when you have a chance. Thanks.

Looking good.

[etard]

Very nice Matt, I was beginning to wonder about that motor until I read your post.

Devries are you planning on buying one of these?

[johnrobholmes]

What a trick way to incorporate the mounting foot into a tensioning device!


Looking great, can't wait to see how you finalize it!

[deVries]

What a trick way to incorporate the mounting foot into a tensioning device!

Even more trick is how to get chain alignment?

Do you see and understand how it can move laterally to get chain-line alignment?

Use spacers or is there a tracking slot to move it?

[recumpence]

What a trick way to incorporate the mounting foot into a tensioning device!

Even more trick is how to get chain alignment?

Do you see and understand how it can move laterally to get chain-line alignment?

Use spacers or is there a tracking slot to move it?

Lateral adjustment for sprocket alignment is accomplished by loostening the mount foot clamping screws and sliding the whole jackshaft bearing tube left or right in the assembly. In my mock-up, you cannot see what I mean. But, the bearing tube will be about an inch longer than what is in the mock-up. For chain alignment, the whole jackshaft is moved side to side to make infinate alignment adjustments.

Thanks for pointing out something that could be easily overlooked in something like this. Do not be afraid to make suggestions or ask questions. It is not out of the realm of possibility that I could ovelook something or not thing of something that would be a good addition to a given design.

Also, yes, I have looked into lazer cutting and water cutting. Those are great options for 2D work.

The freewheeling crank has been boiled down to one machined part ------ the sprocket adaptor. I, ironically, looks much like my disc brake/chainring adaptor. I do not have any CAD drawings to show. I will wait to show the finished part.

Matt

[johnrobholmes]

Lateral adjustment for sprocket alignment is accomplished by loostening the mount foot clamping screws and sliding the whole jackshaft bearing tube left or right in the assembly.... the bearing tube will be about an inch longer than (the drive foot and motor plate). For chain alignment, the whole jackshaft is moved side to side to make infinate alignment adjustments.
Matt

This is an extremely easy job too, it does not take but mere minutes on the initial installation.

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Do not be afraid to make suggestions or ask questions.

You might want to either include or offer as an option a CA set to force pedaling at startup as described here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34331&p=514207#p513941

The slipper clutch is set to prevent too much wheelie action and the acceleration is brutal.

The bike must be pedaled up to 4 mph to engage the drive to make life easier on the motor controller.

I'd like to know how your drive forces 4 mph pedaling to engage the drive and how that works in conjunction with the slipper clutch.

The CA-LRC has a minimum speed setting that allows the motor to sync up and avoid the super high amp surges from attempting to start the motor from a dead stop. The slipper clutch is just a mechanical torque spike limiter and I usually set it tight enough that it doesn't slip unless the throttle is totally pegged or I land the bike with the throttle engaged.
------
It's a pretty cool setting. On this bike, I have to make two pedal cranks to get to 4mph and then the throttle comes in. It lets the motor sync up before there's a load on it.

[Sharkboat]

I think the price is reasonable and the quality is amazing, as always. Can't wait to see more pictures.
-Pat

[recumpence]

I have more to show, but no time right now. You will just have to wait.

Matt