4 inch diameter Astro motors coming soon..........

[deVries]

Steve sucks,
He make bad designs and does not stand behind them...I would not trust his stuff.
Have a look at what he cost some peoples.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1497537

Wholly Crap! Look at THE OBVIOUS... Aug 30, 2011, 08:05 AM

Wire Damage Cause.jpg (132.58 KiB) Viewed 592 times

Aug 30, 2011, 08:05 AM from RC group:
Funny thing this is NOT the first time, a friend got his motor damaged twice from Neu(maybe he will chip in too), still he continues selling them. The only offer I got was to ship the motor back so he could relocate the screws causing the fire...

Neu says they test all motors, and I believe them. But after installning it in the plane wiggeling the cables once or twice the motor was shortend by the screws holding the end cap, where Steve also been kind enough to put tie straps to make sure you get 100% rubbing against the screws

Steves ridiculous engineering skills costed me my $907 ESC where of he has no plans to compensate me ...just offering to relocate the screws... which after several other failed motor should not have been there in the first place. Luckily I never got the plane of the ground.

If you do something wrong YOU STAND FOR IT!!! as simple as that!!

notice to astro motor owners. i discovered my 3220 was shorted to the chassis making for a "lively" ride. culprit was: end termination shrink tape worn out by heat and/or wear. it would be a good idea to double-up on the shrink tape here. happened only after a few rides.
Endless Sphere Post Please Notice the Date: j3tch1u » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:50 am

Astro Wire Damage.JPG (93.56 KiB) Viewed 588 times

Obviously, we have a long-term pattern of "inexcusable" defects caused by both extremely poor design AND non-existent quality control.

My 3220 did exactly the same thing.....in fact it came shorted from the factory, probably costing me a few hundred bucks worth of controllers and many many hours of frustrating troubleshooting.

[deVries]

Yeah it seems like the new 4 inch astros primary purpose is for aircraft /military use but what did you expect? Astro probably sells 40 motors a year for electric bike use if you think about it.....why should they bend over backwards for us given we are such a small share of their overall business. As always its the job of someone like matt or thud to adopt the technology to fit ebikes...because no one is going to put that kind of money into development of a product like that just for the tiny US high end ebike market...lets face that fact.

I agree. And, that's why eBikes still don't really have a specific motor design UNTIL someone is willing to step-up and invest in the future and provide one. Perfect opportunity to build a market with a real eBike motor from the ground-up, imo. NASA & military eventually bring some good consumer products. Burt Rutan visionary types not just interested in making money... are what we need. At least Japan & Germany show it can be done already for several years now...

[lostrack]

In defense of Astro, in at least my occasion, my motor was fine. I checked specifically to see if there were problems

end termination ok.jpg (59.35 KiB) Viewed 579 times

Gluing temperature sensor with high temperature silicon sealant.

gluing.jpg (165.04 KiB) Viewed 579 times

[mdd0127]

It seems that Astro can't see the forest for the trees. I don't know how many e-bike developers there are out there that are working with their motors but I know that there are/were at least a few. It is highly possible that if these manufacturers would take e-bikes seriously, bring production costs down, improve quality control, and most of all, take the people designing products around their products seriously, that the e-bike market would dwarf their military stuff. If I had been able to place orders, receive high quality products quickly and reliably, and had some kind of support early on, it's highly possible that my company would have placed orders for thousands of these parts by now. But instead of taking their customers seriously, the made us the lowest priority, which makes our investors lose confidence in us and drop funding. It's beyond sad.

Also, any company that is supporting the military industrial complex in any way, in particular MAKING PARTS FOR DRONES, is an enemy of freedom. I truly hope that their plant burns down if this is what they're doing. Astro can suck it.

[Nuts&Volts]

I was at astro motor factory today researching a story i am writing for elecricbike.com and spent the afternoon tourring the factory and having lunch with the ceo and 3 of astros top engineers. I held the 4 inch prototype in my hands and I can testify it is awesome.

This is a motor built for small airplane applications and uses very expensive components, a pricey laminate, and top grade copper and other materials. If i were you guys i wouldnt get my hopes up about price...this thing is going to be expensive...probably a lot more than your thinking. Also the first version will not be sensored, and sensors in general seem to be back burnered at astro. They have bigger fish to fry.

The 4 inch astro weighs in at 9 lbs and puts at least 3 times the horsepower of the 3220. It will reach peek efficiency at 6000rpms. Unless your initials are lfp i can't imagine what you are going to do with a motor like this on a bicycle. Also this motor seems at least a few months away...probably much more. They are also developing a controller special for this motor which will also power a 3220. This is not a sensored controller.

These new guys at astro are top notch, and the company has grown from a few employees to over 20 employees and I saw the factory and the facilities and they are impressive.

The problem i think people have mentioned here regarding customer relations etc is Astro is not focused on retailing at all but on R@d and large government like order fulfillment.

IF you want customer service your best bet is to buy a astro motor from a reseller which means buy from Matt. They do not seem set up yet to deal with retail sales and support. Also Matt understands the motors better than anybody and can install sensors, program controller, get correct winding etc to make a monster motor like this more ebike friendly. This motor is going to be awesome once matt puts his gloves on it.

Anyway i am going to write a complete article about my experience today , touring the astro factory and will publish it soon with pictures. I can tell you guys this....i am pretty sure my astro 3220 is not going to overheat this year at pikes I have faith that astro is in good hands, and the redesigned 3220 with active cooling will sustain the acid test which is pikes peak.

Green Machine, in your opinion the 4in will have somewhere between 30-40kW peak power capable? Or were you talking continuous numbers. Any idea about how long until they might be ready for production? I've got some electric motorcycle projects I'd love to run these in...

[recumpence]

It seems that Astro can't see the forest for the trees. I don't know how many e-bike developers there are out there that are working with their motors but I know that there are/were at least a few. It is highly possible that if these manufacturers would take e-bikes seriously, bring production costs down, improve quality control, and most of all, take the people designing products around their products seriously, that the e-bike market would dwarf their military stuff. If I had been able to place orders, receive high quality products quickly and reliably, and had some kind of support early on, it's highly possible that my company would have placed orders for thousands of these parts by now. But instead of taking their customers seriously, the made us the lowest priority, which makes our investors lose confidence in us and drop funding. It's beyond sad.

Also, any company that is supporting the military industrial complex in any way, in particular MAKING PARTS FOR DRONES, is an enemy of freedom. I truly hope that their plant burns down if this is what they're doing. Astro can suck it.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Without a military, we would be overun by tyrants.

I am sorry, but you hit a nerve on this one. The military is NEEDED, period.......

Matt

[flathill]

Just look at what happened to Aveox if you want to know what is going to happen to Astro

Aveox offered one of the first Brushless motor and controller systems for rc cars back in the early 90s

Found out they could charge the gov way more than hobbyist and they completely abandoned the consumer market

Let us not talk anymore politics! Let's see the factory tour! Thanks green machine!!

[deVries]

I must say, I agree 100% that a motor that costs this much should be free of defects, however.

Matt

+1 x $500-$1,000+

[mdd0127]

It seems that Astro can't see the forest for the trees. I don't know how many e-bike developers there are out there that are working with their motors but I know that there are/were at least a few. It is highly possible that if these manufacturers would take e-bikes seriously, bring production costs down, improve quality control, and most of all, take the people designing products around their products seriously, that the e-bike market would dwarf their military stuff. If I had been able to place orders, receive high quality products quickly and reliably, and had some kind of support early on, it's highly possible that my company would have placed orders for thousands of these parts by now. But instead of taking their customers seriously, the made us the lowest priority, which makes our investors lose confidence in us and drop funding. It's beyond sad.

Also, any company that is supporting the military industrial complex in any way, in particular MAKING PARTS FOR DRONES, is an enemy of freedom. I truly hope that their plant burns down if this is what they're doing. Astro can suck it.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Without a military, we would be overun by tyrants.

I am sorry, but you hit a nerve on this one. The military is NEEDED, period.......

Matt

I didn't say that the military isn't needed. People are a bunch of dumb greedy monkeys so we NEED to be able to kill them when the dumb greedy monkeys in charge think it's necessary. The military industrial complex though, is totally out of control. Military spending is totally out of control. Do we really need hypersonic gliders??? Come one now. The main thing that I was speaking out against was DRONES. I really don't like the idea of having remote controlled, armed, machines in our airspace. Not even a year ago they used one to illegally assassinate an american citizen, without a trial. And even scarier is the fact that there's been a law passed that will allow local law enforcement to buy and fly killer surveillance robots. Have you ever seen a sci-fi movie? Armed flying robots will be the beginning of the end.

Ok sorry, back to the motor that will never be available at a price any normal human can afford, from a company that doesn't give two shits about its customers thread.......

[Green Machine]

This motor is designed for aircraft but it will work on a motorcycle. There emphasis in the design of this motor is efficiency, power to weight, and cooling.

It is not a sealed motor like the 3220, it blows air through it and there is holes in the casing. The drawback to this of course is riding a bike off road with this type of motor, if dirt gets in the casing the motor could get ruined.

Astro says they are experimenting with different cooling systems to see what works best.

They are applying what they have learned in the development of this motor to the 3220 which they plan to redesign.

I heard the 4 inch motor run and it was surprisingly quiet.

If you need a lot of power to weight and price is not issue...this would be a good motor for you.

Dont expect sensors anytime soon....not from astro.

Astro can custom design the motor for the customers needs. It seems like they build the motors as the order comes in...so you probably would be able to specify wind, which cooling system you want etc.... And these guys are slammed with orders so dont expect a motor order to be fulfilled over night. Because they are building the motors as the orders come in and they have a production schedule, it can be a while if you order one motor from them. Astro is a small production house...they are not hobbyking. And because they are a small production house they don't have customer service representatives standing by to help you with your warranty claim etc.


What surprised me most is i expected to see a decrepit almost bankrupt operation...but no...this is a hopping factory and business is booming. They went from 5 employees from when they took the business over 2 years ago to 25 employees. They have multiple high level engineers working on R@D. The main guy's emphasis before he took over the company was aerospace. He was keen to the whole ebike idea...so the good news is they seems receptive. These guys have the capacity to make it happen.

Remember when they took over astro, astro was being dominated in the RC field by china factories like Hobby King. THey had to change their business model to survive and obviously did something right.

I saw for myself the difference between the old motors when bob ran the company and the new motors they are designing, and they have seemed to tackle a lot of the quality control issues. Its hard to judge right now, because part of the problem there are still many motors being ran for the first time that were bought recently here on the grooups brand new but were made in the old astro factory. Thats what happened in my case when i smoked 2 3220s on a mountain climb on a trike. Although both motors were brand new, i bought them on the groups and were part of the original 3220 group buy from the old astro factory.

[deVries]

Astro can custom design the motor for the customers needs. It seems like they build the motors as the order comes in...so you probably would be able to specify wind, which cooling system you want etc.... And these guys are slammed with orders so dont expect a motor order to be fulfilled over night. Because they are building the motors as the orders come in and they have a production schedule, it can be a while if you order one motor from them. Astro is a small production house...they are not hobbyking. And because they are a small production house they don't have customer service representatives standing by to help you with your warranty claim etc.

Some people on the RC groups were speculating that these motors are assembled/made overseas such as China. In other words, R&D is in the USA, but farm-out the manufacturing elsewhere. Is this possible that some motors come from overseas, or do they hand build ALL the motors in the USA?

[smudger1956]

Blimey....Astro still going.....Worked for the U.K distributor, used their brushed cobalt motors way back for RC planes, fried a few Astro 05 FAI's......
Now use Hacker or Scorpion brushless for serious RC planes.

[MitchJi]

Hi,

If I had been able to place orders, receive high quality products quickly and reliably, and had some kind of support early on, it's highly possible that my company would have placed orders for thousands of these parts by now. But instead of taking their customers seriously, the made us the lowest priority, which makes our investors lose confidence in us and drop funding. It's beyond sad.

IMO you would be better served if you took some responsibility for your own failures.

Also, any company that is supporting the military industrial complex in any way, in particular MAKING PARTS FOR DRONES, is an enemy of freedom. I truly hope that their plant burns down if this is what they're doing....

The main thing that I was speaking out against was DRONES. I really don't like the idea of having remote controlled, armed, machines in our airspace. Not even a year ago they used one to illegally assassinate an american citizen, without a trial. And even scarier is the fact that there's been a law passed that will allow local law enforcement to buy and fly killer surveillance robots. Have you ever seen a sci-fi movie? Armed flying robots will be the beginning of the end.

+10 on the drones. I'm more concerned with the innocent people being killed in Pakastani, and elsewhere.

1. How many innocent people is it acceptable to kill?
2. There might be some tactical benefit but it's a strategic blunder. A primary cause of terrorism is that a lot of people, with some very good reasons, hate the U. S. Giving more people good reasons to hate us isn't going to help.

[kevo]

MitchJi wrote: MO you would be better served if you took some responsibility for your own failures.

Mitch, coming from Marin myself I find that judgement a bit harsh

Though I agree with you on the drones

[MitchJi]

Hi,

IMO you would be better served if you took some responsibility for your own failures.

Mitch, coming from Marin myself I find that judgement a bit harsh

I should have figured out a way to try to make my point more diplomatically but I did not intend to be harsh. Even if its 100% true that mdd would have been wildly successful if Astro had none of the problems he listed that doesn't mean that the reason he failed is due to Astro. Thats like saying the reason he is drowning is because the current in this river is too fast, ignoring the fact that he should not have jumped into the river in the first place. The first step he needs to take to improve his chances of success is to overcome his own shortcomings, which can't happen as long as he blames someone else for his failures.

[neptronix]

On the upside, you could always take down the drone spying at you on US soil and steal it's astro motor.

See, living in a police state won't be too bad! government subsidized ebikes, yeah!

[Green Machine]

Some people on the RC groups were speculating that these motors are assembled/made overseas such as China. In other words, R&D is in the USA, but farm-out the manufacturing elsewhere. Is this possible that some motors come from overseas, or do they hand build ALL the motors in the USA?

And yes this is what i was speculating that Astro had just become a china depot and most of their motors were being outsourced. I saw no way that astro was competing in the RC market with the chinese invasion of fast and furious (and almost forgot cheap) rc brushless motors.

So the new owner of Astro saw an advertisement for a businss for sale Astro Flight Motor two years ago in a business journal and it was obvious when he bought it that Astro was on its last legs in a small decrepit location and only 5 employeess...it seems logical that most buyers would resort to outsourcing and putting more affordable lesser quality motors on the market to compete with turnigy, etc.

According to the folks at Astro this is not the case, that no astro motor or even any part of an astro motor is being outsourced..its all being made here. I saw for myself small 1 inch can motors being assembled on a work bench. I counted 4 full time workers winding motors.

The new owner said they were not doing near enough volume to make outsourcing feasible for them, plus they were trying to build on the Astro legacy of quality.

He showed me the laminates used on the 3220. He claims his cost on the laminate is over $100. and its done by local US company. He attributes quality laminates to the efficiency of the motor. He showed me in comparison a much cheaper laminate of a chinese competitor rc motor and it was obvious the Astros laminate were a finer nicer grade. He says the laminate in the 4 inch motor costs him 400 dollars to make. Also the grade of copper used in the 4 inch motor is even higher than on the 3220's etc. The 4 inch motor is being made for a customer where money is not a concern. My guess is that would include a pilot for a sailplane, and the military. It would also make a great electric bike motor but you are #1 going to need to be crazy as in LFP and #2 willing to pay big dollars to save the 20 pound difference or so between this new astro and what lfp is using now. Also i think what guys forget to calculate with these sexy motors is the weight of the gear reduction unit itself. A matt gear reduction designed for this motor is probably going to weigh 10 pounds or more. Also dont forget to factor in the cost of the gear reduction (in very small production) when fathoming how much all this is going to cost to put the 4 incher on a bike.

Also remember that these sensorless RC motors, need to be run at their sweet spot to be efficient. That means this motor will have to run at 6000rpm is the number they mentioned. Think about having to run a motor as powerful as this at those kind of rpms for any extended period of time, and a mars motor or perm motor starts to look a lot more attractive to the rc bike builder who wants power and smoothness. The 4 inch motor was designed for high powered flight...not cruising around on 2 wheels.

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

[mdd0127]

Hi,

IMO you would be better served if you took some responsibility for your own failures.

Mitch, coming from Marin myself I find that judgement a bit harsh

I should have figured out a way to try to make my point more diplomatically but I did not intend to be harsh. Even if its 100% true that mdd would have been wildly successful if Astro had none of the problems he listed that doesn't mean that the reason he failed is due to Astro. Thats like saying the reason he is drowning is because the current in this river is too fast, ignoring the fact that he should not have jumped into the river in the first place. The first step he needs to take to improve his chances of success is to overcome his own shortcomings, which can't happen as long as he blames someone else for his failures.

If it was just Astro, then you would be correct. It turns out though that other than Castle Creations, and Gary Goodrum, and JRHolmes, EVERY single supplier I tried to do business with let me down in a big way, including some forum members here. It took months to get anything done. Parts were shipped poorly, late, broken. Promises of power output were lies. Tools were garbage. I could go on but I won't. I gave it hell and won't beat myself up over it.

[mdd0127]

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

Just an FYI. Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently. Which is something that without a doubt, I am capable of doing and have the designs for. Once the prototype was done, we had real investors lined up to show it to. The plan for production was to make a BUNCH of them and flood the market with them, possibly below cost. We were also going to give a bunch away to tour/rental companies, celebrities, pro riders, etc. We also wanted to, and had the connections to, present the bikes to law enforcement/military. The bikes would have been expensive but so much more capable and so much cooler than everything that's currently available that they would have been snatched up at the asking price. Keep in mind that this is more of an ultralight motorcycle than a bicycle. Most people with money don't care about e-bikes because they're wonky looking, slow, unreliable, unsafe to commute on when built at legal specs, and not DOT legal, but people will spend money on something that will quickly get them to work...and allow for some fun along the way. In the larger scale of things, 1000 units is a drop in the ocean but at that volume, it might have even been possible to make a profit from the beginning because of economy of scale issues.

You said that you dream big.........I used to do that too.

[flathill]

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

Just an FYI. Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently. Which is something that without a doubt, I am capable of doing and have the designs for. Once the prototype was done, we had real investors lined up to show it to. The plan for production was to make a BUNCH of them and flood the market with them, possibly below cost. We were also going to give a bunch away to tour/rental companies, celebrities, pro riders, etc. We also wanted to, and had the connections to, present the bikes to law enforcement/military. The bikes would have been expensive but so much more capable and so much cooler than everything that's currently available that they would have been snatched up at the asking price. Keep in mind that this is more of an ultralight motorcycle than a bicycle. Most people with money don't care about e-bikes because they're wonky looking, slow, unreliable, unsafe to commute on when built at legal specs, and not DOT legal, but people will spend money on something that will quickly get them to work...and allow for some fun along the way. In the larger scale of things, 1000 units is a drop in the ocean but at that volume, it might have even been possible to make a profit from the beginning because of economy of scale issues.

You said that you dream big.........I used to do that too.

No way to make a sub 75lb bike that will beat a 450 with a reasonable size pack. Keep dreaming. Even the Zero MX tips the scales at 200lbs with a 14.5 pound frame.

Here is a bike that can beat a stock crf450 (in a drag race) and it weighs 255lbs with no lights
with 42hp at the rear wheel it is 4 seconds faster per lap than a 250


The motor is roughly the same size as the 4" astro


Here is your 271lb pedal-motorcycle

[liveforphysics]

If you're building a motor to run at a single high RPM speed, with extremely high air-flow, you can make the motor small and light and powerful.


All the Astro's being used on ebikes are a mistake IMHO. I used to believe. Lots of time dyno'ing various electric motors and building race bikes and burning up motors and re-winding and burning up motors has lead me to believe you're simply never going to get reliable high performance from a motor in a small package, unless your application is driving a prop at a near constant speed right in its efficiency zone.

I'm 99% sure I would smoke the 4" astro in under 1 minute of it underwhelming me from what I've grown accustom to experiencing. It's just not worth the cost or drivetrain hassles in setting up a super high RPM motor to even find out to me. You can often end up with a lighter overall package that is reliable (as reliable as anything super high-performance is ever going to be) and both possible and easy to control by using a big dumb $400 boat anchor motor, or going with a massive massive hubby like JohninCR's hubmonster.

That's just my $0.02 from the knowledge and experience I've gained in the last few years of pushing the envelope right off the table a few dozen times.

[Thud]

You guys are really off topic & derailing this thread.......I am "unsubscribing" to get off this tangent.
Thanks.
T

[liveforphysics]

Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently.

As much as I would love to see that, it's simply not possible with current materials technology. Even if you took battery weight completely out of the 75lbs weight, you're just not going to get there. The suspension/wheels/tires/brakes to hang with a CRF450 on dirt is going to be over 50lbs on its own, and thats using only the lightest best made stuff on the planet. You're just not going to be able to put down the power needed through anything like a bicycle tire on dirt. On street it may be possible to get pretty close if the 75lbs doesn't count battery weight, and you don't mind a motor and tires that only last a lap.

[Arlo1]

So this is where a multi speed tranny comes in. Hmm brd is having great sucsess with a single speed... But from what i have seen brd CAN NOT beat a 450! But a cost efictive way to light weight maybe just a bigger motor! Its what i taught the kids two weeks ago when we fried Our first motor lol.

[flathill]

So this is where a multi speed tranny comes in. Hmm brd is having great sucsess with a single speed... But from what i have seen brd CAN NOT beat a 450! But a cost efictive way to light weight maybe just a bigger motor! Its what i taught the kids two weeks ago when we fried Our first motor lol.

In an 1/8 mile drag race it might against a stock 450, a race tuned crf could have over 60hp
no way it will beat the 450 on track