New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby gwhy! » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:13 am

bzhwindtalker wrote:Yep, Cheap right? I removed the springs on the centrifugal clutch to have it engage at lower rpm, but I think that some slipping will remain under heavy torque loadings, but this will hopefully save the controller from blowing! How much current can a stock 23$ 12fet handle? I need to learn how to mod controllers...


I have run a stock 12fet at 70A with a 6374 motor with halls, it was ok but you have to watch the temps.
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:29 am

Are you sure the box is 5:1? I thought those were 3:1 when I was going to use them... the gear driven ones are 5:1 but the chains were labeled as3:1 most times I saw them??
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:38 am

I plan on running the 12fet at 40-50a so I should be fine! What kind of "stock" 12 fet are you using?

You are right whiplash, they are actually 1/3, I tested mine right now... this kinda sucks because my gearing is way off then :/

Edit, I calculated 45kph in slowest gear unloaded :/
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby gwhy! » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:28 pm

bzhwindtalker wrote:I plan on running the 12fet at 40-50a so I should be fine! What kind of "stock" 12 fet are you using?

You are right whiplash, they are actually 1/3, I tested mine right now... this kinda sucks because my gearing is way off then :/

Edit, I calculated 45kph in slowest gear unloaded :/


It was one from e-crazyman ( sensored ) all i done soon as i received it was to add a pot across the shunt ( as Bigmoose have mentioned in another thread somewhere ) so I could adjust the current.
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:38 pm

gwhy! wrote:
bzhwindtalker wrote:I plan on running the 12fet at 40-50a so I should be fine! What kind of "stock" 12 fet are you using?

You are right whiplash, they are actually 1/3, I tested mine right now... this kinda sucks because my gearing is way off then :/

Edit, I calculated 45kph in slowest gear unloaded :/


It was one from e-crazyman ( sensored ) all i done soon as i received it was to add a pot across the shunt ( as Bigmoose have mentioned in another thread somewhere ) so I could adjust the current.



Hey cool idea there!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:12 am

Gwhy, I know you have been up with 12 fets and 6374 for a while, how do you gear your builds (speed)?

I think 45kph will be too higth for a first gear, especially considering that this build will be used 80% of the time on technical offroad stuff, averaging under 20kph. my previous build was geared for 35-40kph loaded, and was pulling hard with a 80-85 at 20v, 2500-3000w peaks and no torque from 0 to 3kph.

The new 63-74 spins more than twice as fast as the 80-85, so it should be able of more power to weigth than the 80-85 bogged at 20v, but still, I realy wish I had a 15kph first gear with tire shredding torque :roll:
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:03 pm

Just use a two stage chain box? I bet you could modify the double row box to be two stage and get 9:1!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:07 pm

Excuse the cell phone paint...
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Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby sn0wchyld » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:15 pm

Whiplash wrote:Just use a two stage chain box? I bet you could modify the double row box to be two stage and get 9:1!

I was actually thinking of using 2 boxes put back to back, that way you keep the double chain strength but get a 9:1 in one unit. efficiency might be a bit sucky though.
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby gwhy! » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:05 am

bzhwindtalker wrote:Gwhy, I know you have been up with 12 fets and 6374 for a while, how do you gear your builds (speed)?

I think 45kph will be too higth for a first gear, especially considering that this build will be used 80% of the time on technical offroad stuff, averaging under 20kph. my previous build was geared for 35-40kph loaded, and was pulling hard with a 80-85 at 20v, 2500-3000w peaks and no torque from 0 to 3kph.

The new 63-74 spins more than twice as fast as the 80-85, so it should be able of more power to weigth than the 80-85 bogged at 20v, but still, I realy wish I had a 15kph first gear with tire shredding torque :roll:


all my off road stuff has been geared for around 35-40kph when using the 63-74 ( running on 48v with a current limit of around 70-80A), the bikes will take me up and over anything I point them at, the biggest problem that I have had is with throttle control at these sort of power levels is with traction. On the full size motorcycle that I have been playing around with ( that has been put on hold for a little while until I have some more parts ) I geared it for around 30-35kph still using the same small outrunner ( because its twice the weight of my pushbike based bikes but it did end up under powered) I found that the problem with gearing even slower really starts to effect throttle response due to the amount of reduction, this may not be a problem for most but I have always ridden very technical sections where even the slightest of delay in the throttle can be the difference of getting up a 3 foot rockstep after a full lock U-turn or ending up on your a$$. I have never run one of these motors sensorless and I think by running sensors this is where the <1 rpm power/torque comes from, I really cant imagine a sensorless setup working for for the stuff I ride.
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:21 am

Is it 35-40 loaded or unloaded? I am also quite fond of technical offroad stuff, but I usualy ride 20-35kph stuff as i'm not so good at trials riding!

The sensorless controller I use is quite fast to react, and as it is starting to rev the motor unloaded, should get pretty close to sensored startup. Of course the clutch adds quite à bit of delay in the system, but it starts to engage at about 100 rpm. Time will tell?

The sbp order got shipped last nigth, i'm not sûre about what kind of delay to expect to Europe?
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby gwhy! » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:17 pm

bzhwindtalker wrote:Is it 35-40 loaded or unloaded? I am also quite fond of technical offroad stuff, but I usualy ride 20-35kph stuff as i'm not so good at trials riding!

The sensorless controller I use is quite fast to react, and as it is starting to rev the motor unloaded, should get pretty close to sensored startup. Of course the clutch adds quite à bit of delay in the system, but it starts to engage at about 100 rpm. Time will tell?


I am watching your build closely to see how well you do get on with a clutch and a sensorless controller , it just may do the trick. The delay can be gotten used to as long as it consistent. The 35-40 is loaded. All that 100 rpm before engagement means that you will have to be more creative with your technical riding and think things though a little more ( less room for error ). You would have to ride like the old days when you were not allowed to stop and balance within a section ( non-stop trials )
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:38 pm

I was actually thinking of a trials mode, where the motor would be spinning just below engagement point whenever a switch on the handlebars would be on. Some resistors on the throttle line and a potentiometer to dial the rpm right should do the trick. at this point I might as well bite the bullet and fit some halls :/
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:23 pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Whiplash wrote:Just use a two stage chain box? I bet you could modify the double row box to be two stage and get 9:1!

I was actually thinking of using 2 boxes put back to back, that way you keep the double chain strength but get a 9:1 in one unit. efficiency might be a bit sucky though.



I think the efficiency would not suffer as much as the out and out size and weight. Most chains are around 95ish% efficiency if I recall correctly so that is not really an issue, I think it would just be too wide....
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:33 am

Two units back to back might actually be a nice solution, I might try that one day or another!

This bike does quite well without motor :
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I was hoping to get my order from sbp today, but I had no luck unfortunately... I can't wait to try this bike with some power. I tested it on pedal power only, it is really heavy, but still quite ridable. The forks will need some tweaking, they are too soft for the added weight and lack some damper I think. I still got some work done, securing the unit to the frame and making a top panel :

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:11 pm

allrigth, T8F is worthless :x I have no idea how, but i managed to snap a link.
The whole drive is waaaay too noisy, the motor mount flexes under load, even the frame is flexing actually!!
I did not get the cranks yet, so i just screwed the fw on a bottom bracket cup.

Few thing I learned from this build :
the bmsbattery 12 fet sensorless spins a 180kv motor at full rpm
T8F is crappy as hell
pocket bikes cluchs smoke a lot when stalled at 1500w input :twisted:
clutches are inefficient
I want a mid drive hub pushing 1000-1200w
I'm bored, I just want to ride...

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wtf chain
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Phoebus » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:43 pm

If you can somehow mount a geared hub in the middle...
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:18 pm

I hate being bored with builds.

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I will cut and weld back the lower support to gain some clearance and grind the flanges of the hub too, but it looks like it will work. :P
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby GITech » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:43 pm

Cool :)

It's neet to watch you trying so many different things! What is that hub? direct or geared?

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Phoebus » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:24 pm

That was quick!
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:15 pm

NOW your talking! I really want to try a DD hub on my bike but its too short of a wheelbase for it, it just won't fit. Your gonna LIKE this now! Wait till you try to climb something the torque is INCREDIBLE, mine is like a real gas dirtbike up to about 10MPH!! Really, no joke, its about as torquey as my old KX 125 was in low gear, So when climbing it will go up just about anything you can hang on to and get traction on, the only limit seems to be when you flip backwards! So if you push any kind of real power through that big hub, its going to be insane! plus you can gear it to do like 55MPH in top gear! Mine is only supposed to go like 20-25MPH if it was in the wheel, maybe slower and I can get it to do 35-36MPH in my "overdrive" gear!


Getting the chain line setup to work is the tricky part unless you just get lucky. I had to make a few spacers on my lathe for the various chain rings to get it all to work together.
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Whiplash » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:24 pm

It seems like you could mount the batteries under the downtube no? right in front of the motor? It would certainly make the bike more comfortable when riding, unless the forks compress too much?
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:22 am

I am not too interested in anything above 30mph, but i want insane torque and good control below 15mph.
The chainline actually look quite straigth! But i need some clearance for the chain on the motor side. I also need to secure a wide bottom bracket, because the pedal does not clear the motor on the left side.

The motor is à DD conshimotor with a 32mm wide stator. It just need à phase upgrade and a fresh coat of paint.

I will probably get another frame on the bay, for when the set-up will be relyable. This one is quite beaten already from my experiments!
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby Wheazel » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:24 am

Did you change springs in the clutch? I am using a pocketbike clutch and changed to some superweak springs because the stock ones slipped slightly even at full rpms.
My clutch does only slip at very low speed and the engagement until it grips 1:1 is smooth.
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Re: New 24' slopestyle freeride build, getting serious!

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:42 am

I'm not bored anymore. Mid drive hub FTW

I cut and welded back on the lower arms, the clearance is now quite okay, I will probably cut the flanges off if I am motivated enough !
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The motor mount will get a fresh coat of red antirust paint, and hopefully I will be able to find an extra wide BB in some shop tomorrow morning... 3 day weekend coming with good weather, I want to hit the trails! I still have 2-3hours of work to get it running, as I need to wire back the hub and the halls, plus getting the clearances right. I need +5mm on the drive side and +10 mm on the other side.
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