My application to be part of the M.E.N.S club( 2kW Big MAC )

[neptronix]

So there are like 5-10 of you interested by now, haha. Maybe MAC USA would answer my emails if i was talking about 10 units. Hm. I really don't want to do a group buy deal until i feel confident in the motor.
But if it takes a 10 unit order to get them to pretend i exist, it may happen.

I will wait for the China dude to get back to me. It's 7:00am over there in lovely pudong, Shanghai. I guess i won't hear from them for a while.

[Toango]

Ever since i lusted over miles moulton bike couple of years ago and seeing dogottis fantastic mid drive i think im ready to do i mid drive as well.

Was considerng a recumpence drive with astro motor

I got a bike friday pocket llama that hopefully can accept this motor

Thank neptronix for the info. I too am interested on this motor and your build

Still a boy

Ready to man up

[neptronix]

Damn, another one interested.

There are a lot of you wanting to shed the frock. I am surprised by the response.

So i got an email back from the China seller today asking me what speed i wanted, I responded within minutes, and haven't heard back for over 5 hrs.
All 3 other points of contact have resulted in the silent treatment / emails going to space.

Ilia at ebikes-sf might be able to help out, but i don't know.
cell_man is buried in emails/orders.
Maybe Lyen can help. Aha, i will bug him.

[Philistine]

Out of interest Neptronix are you going to build a custom frame to mount that kind of motor? If not, then I am having trouble working out where you would mount something of that size and weight on a prebuilt frame? I can see how it would be awesome on a Yuba or such, but on a standard Mtb frame I can't work out where you would put it. That bike you showed at the start had it mounted on a rear rack, and I would have thought that would have awful handling. People can riff all they like about the weight of a hub motor and handling, but if you took that weight and stuck it up on a rear rack it would make it unbearable.

With Luke's frame, because he custom made the frame, he was able to create that nice big space he has for the motor, but other than a Yuba or cargo bike where would you fit it? Is the idea that it will be like a mid-drive hub set up mounted in front of the front chain ring clamped to the frame? If so the mountings to the frame better be rock solid, or the amount of torque coming off that thing is going to make maintaining chain alignment a nightmare.

Also curious, you mentioned you are unhappy with frock because of limited freewheel choice (with the bigger hubs), but the whole point of big hub motors is that you don't pedal. I only attach a chain to my 5404 Gborg for the Po Po, I wouldn't even bother pedalling it given its weight, but also given its acceleration and top speed. The same I imagine goes for Luke, I would be surprised if he has ever bothered pedalling that thing. I can understand with a really lightweight RC or middrive build how you might pedal, but if this thing has the weight and power you want, are you really going to pedal (and if you do, aren't you just going to pedal in one speed, ie with a really massive front chain ring, and then you will only likely pedal in one speed anyway, in the brief and rare moments you might add something).

I am not having a go, I am just curious, because to me non-hub bikes exist for two reasons: 1) the person wants to allow the motor to run through the gears, thus allowing the motor to have a wider range of efficiency/power/torque etc.. using a cyclone type front chain ring etc.. or 2) the person (eg Luke) wants to bolt an insanely powerful motor to the bike, and they are never going to pedal it. Whereas you seem to be saying you want to have a very powerful and thus heavy motor running through the disc brake side (so you gain no benefit at all for gear changing etc.. for the motor) - which could easily be achieved with a big hubmotor, but you see the advantage being that you can have more freewheel options than you could with a hubmotor? But if the motor is so powerful do you need so many gears to pedal with? How often are you going to use the easiest/largest of the top 1 through 6 speeds?

Am I missing something? I am just a bit confused about what you are doing. I could understand if you were going to run the motor through a cyclone style front ring (ie like a middrive), but that then itself raises all the usual problems about reliability of drivetrain for the power etc.. (I have been there with even just a Cyclone). Sorry if I missed something obvious, but I am curious because the only reason I would want to run a big motor through the disc side (and thus lose all gearing benefits), would be to get a way more powerful motor than a hub could get me (eg Luke's bike), and then I am not interested in pedalling the thing.

[neptronix]

Yo phil;

No custom frame needed. Either of these motors will fit in the triangle of my hardtail bikes just fine, or i can pick up a steel frame and weld up a nice mount. I will just have to relocate the batteries. The center triangle is a great place to put that weight. Think of how motorcycles are designed.

I've also thought of using the extra triangle that opens up in an xtracycle configuration. Later on when i move, it will likely be relocated to do that:

http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-bicycles/xtracycle-cargo-bicycles/xtracycle-freeradical/freeradical-base-frame.html

^-- check the link, and it will all come together for you mentally


As for the hub motor gearing, well i want the best of both worlds, man. I pedal over 80% of the time and like getting some excersize. On the hubzilla, you can put a 15T single on it. With a 60T front chainring you are maxed out at mid 20mph on a 26" wheel. On the 54xx, your lowest gear is limited to 14 or 15T it seems. That is also useless even with the monster size chainring.

Most of all i am tired of finding rust inside my hub motors after a few rides in mild rain. i want a reliable daily driver that can shake off a downpour and keep kicking for years. I am not convinced that is possible with a hub motor at all. You can drill holes, but crap gets in it. You can put red stuff on the windings, but i'm sure you're lowering the motor's ability to shed heat. There seems to be no end all solution to that problem.

And do i want to pay $600 for a hubzilla, then have it spoked, another $100? not really. Great motor, but it doesn't fit my requirements. it'd be worth the money if i liked hubs more. The Crystalyte 54xx is atrociously heavy and i am surprised so many people lined up to get it.

I have gearing ( 11t to 60T ) that can allow me to pedal up to 40mph on a 24" or 26" wheel. With a really tall-spaced rear gear cluster, i could also pedal at 20mph with the ratios, which is actually the speed i plan on operating the bike 75% of the time.

Not interested in a mid drive at this point. Bike chain could never contain the power i want to throw at it.
I'm sure you found that out quickly with the cyclone

It will make more sense when i get it together. I am looking for the best of all worlds and i am particular about everything being freaking perfect.



Maybe some of you want to chime in and present your reasons, since i'm not alone in wanting to do a chain driven setup.

[Doctorbass]

Damn, another one interested.

There are a lot of you wanting to shed the frock. I am surprised by the response.

So i got an email back from the China seller today asking me what speed i wanted, I responded within minutes, and haven't heard back for over 5 hrs.
All 3 other points of contact have resulted in the silent treatment / emails going to space.

Ilia at ebikes-sf might be able to help out, but i don't know.
cell_man is buried in emails/orders.
Maybe Lyen can help. Aha, i will bug him.

Nep, I am planning on reducing the total width of my 5403 by 10mm There is all the necessary room inside to remove! and it will still have 2mm free from the nearest part of the stator for the side cover so...

Then i'll be able to use a normal 7 speed freewheel and use the great 11tooth gear

Also, i plan on making siome machining on the axel to allow the 3 x 10AWG silicon wire to fit easy and also on the other side of the axel, i'll install a groove to allow two little pipe for... liquidcooling.. i'll just replace the smaller bearing with the the same bigger bearing on that side and it will sit on the area of the axel that have the larger diameter for the inner part of the bearing

The motor will probably loose 2 pounds--->28 pounds and wil be aircooled as well as liquid cooled... adn have the full freewheel...
As well as the insane power it will take continuously

Doc

[neptronix]

Sounds like i'll have something to compete with if i toss the MAC idea out the window and go straight to the motenergy 4201 ;D

28lbs and a 7 speed freewheel on that motor would be nice and make it more liveable, good luck, man!

[Philistine]

I understand better what you are after now, in that you want the power you have now with the pie say, but without being able to have the crazy small rear wheel. My point though, is do you currently use the full suite of gears on your pie bike? Do you pedal at all on the pie bike? I am just curious. The reason I am curious is that even when I had a full 7 speed cluster on my 5303 on 20S@40amps, there was no point at which I could pedal (if pulling WOT) at any point. If I had got a massive front chain ring (and I mean insanely large, given that it could do 70kph), I might have been able to add something at the top end, but that would have only been at one speed. And even if you do pedal on the Pie bike, keep in mind that a Pie weighs considerably less than what you are going to be strapping on.

I can add pedal power to my BMC bike, and hence enjoy the gears, but that is because I run it on a nancy 12S/40amp (that is the point of that bike, so I can pedal and battle my paunch, but when I get tired or am in a hurry can speed away - it is light enough for that).

I can see it better if you are going with an Xtra cycle, as you will have so much more room for stuff (including batts). But I maintain that with that kind of power, you really only need one speed to pedal with, because if you wanted to add pedal power through the acceleration curve, you are going to have to seriously limit the current (unless you are lance armstrong), and in which case I don't see why you want to carry around so much power/weight if you aren't using it.

The reason people (myself included) lined up for a 5404 is pretty simple, we don't care about weight and gearing, because we don't pedal it. It is for creating an out of the box electric motorcycle (which leaves plenty of triangle space for batts), that dresses up like a bike (for legal Po Po reasons). Anyone who bought a 5404 with an intention to pedal the thing is either stupid, or has the ability to pedal faster than a motorbike.

[neptronix]

Phil, that is exactly it. The adjustment of geometry, power, crank length, and such drove me mad to the point where i almost gave up. But now it's finally together.

Right now i do not use all 7 speeds on that bike. This is meant to be pedaled at top speed only! after the race, i am selling the pie off if it lives

With a 3 speed switch, you can pedal along just fine and it really does help the efficiency, I run my MAC on 57v nominal and have 20mph / 30mph / 35-39mph all available to me via the switch. I want to build something that goes just a bit faster is all. The MAC won't live at more power and there is also the rain problem, and the snow/salt problem where i live.

The pie is 16lbs, and the pirelli tire is rather heavy at 4lbs ( i am literally only using it for rear lift! ), i end up being at 20lbs for the whole rig which isn't all too far off from a motenergy style setup, and a 2kW MAC would be better in power output ( per pound ) than every hub on the market. Hubs rotate too slowly and produce just a fraction of what all that copper and magnet can put out due to the tiny rpm range. I 'got' this after i went to a 20" wheel, played with the ebikes.ca simulator etc. And honestly, i don't fit anything that sits on such small wheels . So upright 24" - 26" it is... and i don't have to worry about not making peak efficiency/power due to my wheel size.


I have wanted something i can pedal along and get excersize with, but occasionally hot rod it to 40mph and get through some roads i could not traverse safely due to no bike lane. It is the best of all worlds. If i wanted a motorcycle, i'd build a motorcycle.

What i want is a bike with a little toggle switch on it that turns it into a rocket.


Now let us stop talking about these dirty hub motors and get back on topic

[neptronix]

Oh sweet baby Jesus. I got an email back from the China MAC dude. I thought he was brushing me off too. We are in the middle of discussing various details now. But i gotta get up early tomorrow, so i need to catch some sleep.

TTYL folks, and BTW i would still like to hear your reasons why you want to escape the hub motors. I gave my reasons. I wonder what yours are, and what the plans are...

[TopCat]

Subscribed.....Watching with intrest.

Im using a 1200w Cyclone motor on my chopper at the moment, which seems to be holding up ok for now! I did want one of those superkids BMC 1500watt motors but superkids are a pain to deal with
I plan on triking my chopper and as its a bloody HEAVY bike to start with im hoping someone gets hold of one of these M12980 motors to see how they hold up.

Regards
Tom

[Philistine]

Cool, I will get take my limp wristed hubo ass off your thread now, I was just trying to get my head around what you were trying to achieve (because I still believe that what you are trying to achieve is very unique in terms of what most non-hubbers are after, ie, most of them are either seeking to take advantage of gearing, or extreme power without pedalling, and you were doing neither). I think my confusion over what you are doing arises out of two issues that are actually applicable to me, not you necessarily, these are:
1) I am simply incapable of having access to something fun (in this case power, but it applies to booze, drugs and women), and not making use of it, hence I would never pedal your bike, I would just WOT everywhere; and
2) Where I live the noise your bike would make, and the clear "non-bikeness" of it, would have the cops swarming on me by the time I made the second street (unlike you guys we have such insanely low legal power levels).

But those two are my issues, not yours.

Best of luck, I'll get my frock...

[Tench]

The fact is i like to ride technical trails and occasionally fast trails, a rear hub motor equiped bike with its massively heavy rear wheel causes the suspension to not function anywhere near as good as it could with a mid mount motor, also the fact that the hubs dont have sufficient slow speed torque, a mid mount can be geared to your choice without having to resort to tiny wheels, and the weight distribution is more central, come to think of it the hub does not really have much to offer for an off road bike except easy of build but i can still see why it is so popular as a motive choice for commuters.

If these are going to become a reality Nep put me down for a couple

[mwkeefer]

Ok... 22lbs is not nothing, my favorite daily use bike is stock at just 24 lbs, 22 with trimmings removed before conversion and with approx. 20mi range @ 30-35mph weighs in at a whopping 36lbs.
so that makes my entire blur just 14lbs over the motor discussed here alone.
Not that there isn't a place for heavier bikes and/or motors, not that moving away from hubbies is a bad idea... Just some perspective

[nicobie]

Hey neptronix...

Time to start honing your fabrication skills.

[neptronix]

I think my confusion over what you are doing arises out of two issues that are actually applicable to me, not you necessarily, these are:
1) I am simply incapable of having access to something fun (in this case power, but it applies to booze, drugs and women), and not making use of it, hence I would never pedal your bike, I would just WOT everywhere; and
2) Where I live the noise your bike would make, and the clear "non-bikeness" of it, would have the cops swarming on me by the time I made the second street (unlike you guys we have such insanely low legal power levels).

But those two are my issues, not yours.

I understand #1 to some degree . I go very long distances, and need to ride along side other pedestrians and bike riders, so often times i am only doing 20-25mph; what a road bike is capable of doing. But i have always wanted a turbo switch for those times where there is no bike lanes and cars do not expect you at all - so you keep up with them at their speeds.

The higher efficiency of the bigger motors make this possible to plod along at 50% of the full power without a big efficiency penalty. On some hubs ( according to ebike.ca simulator ), i creep into the upper 70% efficiency level at low throttle and that sucks. I believe this motor will shed heat quite well and perform better at the lower speeds.

#2, i dunno how much noise it will make.. but nobody hears my MAC hub coming as it is. And here in the USA we can get away with murder. I feel for you guys out there. But hiding the motor with panniers is always an option.. the noise is another thing.

[neptronix]

Tench: that is a great reason. Unsprung weight is actually an enemy of handling/suspension. It is something that people hopping up cars spend tons of money to combat.

Nicobie: i am back in touch with a guy who fabricates some nasty, big 50cc chopper gas tricycles as a hobby, and does high level engineering on the side. I finally got him to ride the MAC trek and he seems enthusiastic to work with me. This is a lot easier than putting together a custom frame to make a 20" wheel work ( as in my "peak power" build ) I also know some other fabricators now, who are expensive but can get the job done.

[liveforphysics]

Just read this thread. I used #35 on my first ebike with a pair of the big HXT motors and it worked fine.

I'm laying over 5x more torque now... and my bike wears out a #428 dirtbike chain in about 1 hour of riding.


Think about what determines a motors continuous power. It's entirely about heat produced vs the heat it can shed. If you put a cover over the bell of an outrunner, it's kinda like running your hubmotor in a box... They claim >80% efficiency, and have what appears to be a pretty poor thermal path. If that same motor case were made into an inrunner with the lams pressed into that little outer shell (or properly vented open-can outrunner), I bet it's continuous power doubles or triples.

I have no experience with them, maybe they totally rock. I would just by a single sample first and test the piss out of it before buying a large amount.

[neptronix]

OK - action news update.

I must have said some magic words, dropped the right info, dropped the right names, but i managed to, ahem, 'blag' correctly to the guy in China.

They are not very hip to the idea of shipping one motor, but it seems like they will do it.

I would like to get these motors into your hands, but i don't want to step on anyone's toes who is selling MAC products *cough*cellman*cough*, i am also not interested in making ( or losing! ) money on any of this. So the details of a larger group buy type situation is up in the air.

When i receive the motor, i will start another thread. I don't mean this to be a MAC motor circle jerk

But here is a place to discuss chain driven power that is efficient, good power per weight, and does not require multiple reductions or high levels of mechanical knowledge. Hubs are good if you're smart with electronics. RC Drive is good if you're smart with mechanics. There is a middle way that is not discussed on this forum very often, and i think it's cool to explore that.

[neptronix]

Right on luke, i think #35 chain would be OK for the Big MAC but i'm sure the motenergy motor is another situation entirely.
I bet you found the limit of chain pretty damn fast on what you're rolling on

I agree it probably has some serious thermal limitations. On the other hand it is build to be used in a potentially wet/nasty/dirty environment so it is probably pretty weatherproof. Perhaps she could be vented and internally fanned. I'm also thinking you could mount a fan on the axle before the sprocket, and the metal surface looks to be designed to wick off heat. The lawn mower design is obvious.



http://www.motenergy.com/me0201014201.html

The motenergy / mars design appears to have an axle driven fan on the back. What do you think of the design of this motor, luke?

[Miles]

Perhaps she could be vented and internally fanned. I'm also thinking you could mount a fan on the axle before the sprocket, and the metal surface looks to be designed to wick off heat. The lawn mower design is obvious.

Losing the cover entirely would be a good start..

[Tench]

Top Blagging Nep, well done!!

You do understand though that we now expect you to mount it in a bike, explore its potential and then test it to destruction!!

[torqueon]

I would like to get these motors into your hands, but i don't want to step on anyone's toes who is selling MAC products *cough*cellman*cough*, i am also not interested in making ( or losing! ) money on any of this. So the details of a larger group buy type situation is up in the air.

Hey neptronix if you get this group buy going, please count me in. Been looking for a motor like this for awhile.
Thanks for your research.

Pete

[neptronix]

You do understand though that we now expect you to mount it in a bike, explore its potential and then test it to destruction!!

YES sir! I am ordering 2 motors total. 1 for experimentation, the other for riding as a daily driver at whatever power level it can tolerate reasonably.

Hey neptronix if you get this group buy going, please count me in. Been looking for a motor like this for awhile.
Thanks for your research.

Damn, i think you are person #12, i haven't counted yet..
No problem with the research.
You know, zombiess found out about the greyborg hubzilla with some research too.
I think there are more interesting motors out there than the 2 i am focusing on :]

[neptronix]

Perhaps she could be vented and internally fanned. I'm also thinking you could mount a fan on the axle before the sprocket, and the metal surface looks to be designed to wick off heat. The lawn mower design is obvious.

Losing the cover entirely would be a good start..

HAHA, that looks like a BMC/MAC motor bell housing from a hub with cooling holes cut into it, i guess that's what they had to do to hop up their sweet electric mowers way back when before this motor came out. Poor saps