GNG Drive Gen2

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby ericbojo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:52 pm

I'm 90% sure the controller is fried on delivery.

I tested my battery its showing 55 volts at full charge. There is no longer a pop when I connect the controller, it only happened the first time and not after. I did connect the Ignition wire to the positive terminal and still nothing. There was literaly Zero instructions on setting this kit up..

One of the wires to the motor from the controller side was loose (blue thick wire from the 3 pin connector) and i re did that pin so it connects properly but still nothing.

I hooked everything up and i got no voltage to the motor wires when i use the throttle.

I checked the controller directly i do see voltage at the terminals but no where else in the controller, with or without throttle. So I'm pretty sure this controller fried and never properly tested in the first place.

Can anyone recommend a better controller and wire connectors/terminals to use? I'm really unhappy with the workmanship on this controller and it shows how little quality they put into their products..

I want to get a better controller but need a wiring diagram to hook it up properly with the GNG motor.. Also if you can recommend a better thottle I would appreciate it.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby LightningRods » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:08 am

I've had several people PM me asking for adjustable sheets for the Gen 2. I finally had a customer that wanted a commuter bike and I'm building a Gen 2 for them. The sheets are being fabricated now and will be available in a couple of weeks. They're made from the same high quality American 12 gauge steel as my Gen 1 sheets and have more metal in key areas, especially around the BB where the GNG sheets are weak. I also designed an alternator type swing mount for chain adjustment. This will get rid of the wimpy red wheel tensioner.

Image

Image

PM me if you're interested in a set of these. The initial run should be back from the laser cutter in one to two weeks and then another week to ten days for electroplating.

Thanks,
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:55 am

This bracket set, and adding oil-cooling with a temp sensor...will make the Gen-2 (using 36V) one of my most recommended commuter kits. As to possible competing kits, there is a lot of buzz right now about Bafangs new BBS01 BB-drive, which is aimed at countries with low power restrictions in Europe and Asia. It is clearly designed for mass-production in order to compete against the high-quality (but expensive) Panasonic and Bosch BB-drives.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=50104
Image

I think the BBS01 has a bright future, but it simply doesn't have the copper mass of the GNG-Gen2. The BBS01 has two power ratings, 250W and 350W. Although ride reports about the 350W here on ES are good, The North American market is allowed to legally use 500W in Canada and 750W in the US. A true continuous 750W might be too much heat for the 350W BBS01, but that remains to be seen.

The Gen-2 is advertised as using 48V, but the tiny drive-cog is simply too small (engineering wise), and even using the stock chainrings at 48V, the rider may not be able to add pedaling to ease the load on the motor (or extend the battery pack range). Clearly the motor will work at 48V, but the higher RPMs make it a scooter, instead of something that you can pedal along with (if that's important to you).

If the motor was available in several windings, a slow turn-count motor would be a great option for those that want to use 48V. However, with the existing motor, I would be comfortable selling these to friends using 36V and a continuous 25A, which would be 36V X 25A = 900W.

The flexy and weak stock bracket was slightly reinforced by the factory recently in the newest versions, yet they are still clearly just an "adequate" solution to a kit with a lot of untapped potential. These new brackets by LightningRods are extra strong for only a small weight penalty, and based on recent past customer service reports and actual production build quality, I can recommend this bracket set without hesitation.

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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby LightningRods » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:02 pm

Well as luck would have it....

I've been working for weeks developing a #219 secondary drive for the Gen 1 kits. I designed a 3/4" to 11mm adapter so that I could fit a 12 tooth 219 driver on the secondary. I also designed a freewheel to 5 1/4" kart sprocket adapter plate. The 3/4" to 11mm will work with 12T, 13T and 14T 219 sprockets with a 3/4" bore. There is a HUGE range of kart sprockets available from 65T to 93T. A 75T is almost identical in diameter to a 48T 1/2" chain sprocket. The difference is the .3" link pitch. Because of the quality and side plate thickness of good Japanese and German 219 chain they are good up to 15+ horsepower. More than enough for the GNG.

My 219 adapters with sprockets:
Image

Just by coincidence these parts will also work on the Gen 2. The Gen 2 driver also uses an 11mm keyed bore.
The stock Gen 2 driver is on the right.
Image

You can see the difference between the pitch of 1/2" and .3" 219. Even with more teeth on the driver (12T is a good minimum anyway for decent chain life) you can more than make up for it on the driven side. I'm going to use 12/80 for 6.66:1 on my own bike. You can make the gearing on your Gen 2 pretty much anything you want by mixing drivers and driven sprockets.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:29 pm

The increased reduction provided with this #219 chain set means to me that 48V (and the increased RPMs that result) would finally be a good option. I would still limit the amps on a Gen-2 to 25A because of the poor heat-shedding (the Gen-1 has excellent heat-shedding in stock form), but...if someone was willing to experiment with oil-cooling I may revise that amp-cap recommendation in the future, dependent on the results.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby LightningRods » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:03 pm

It was pointed out to me that the early Gen 2s had a different motor mount than the one I just bought. The current one connects to the center section of the motor near the sprocket and motor shaft. The early Gen 2s had a large ring that attached to the perimeter of the motor case. Since I have a couple of customers with early Gen 2s wanting adjustable sheets and the new style bracket won't fit the older motors, I designed an adjustable motor section that connects to the same BB bracket. Both styles of Gen 2 sheets should be available by mid August.

Oil cooling huh? Sounds like fun...
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby d8veh » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:24 pm

LightningRods wrote:Well as luck would have it....

I've been working for weeks developing a #219 secondary drive for the Gen 1 kits. I designed a 3/4" to 11mm adapter so that I could fit a 12 tooth 219 driver on the secondary. I also designed a freewheel to 5 1/4" kart sprocket adapter plate. The 3/4" to 11mm will work with 12T, 13T and 14T 219 sprockets with a 3/4" bore. There is a HUGE range of kart sprockets available from 65T to 93T. A 75T is almost identical in diameter to a 48T 1/2" chain sprocket. The difference is the .3" link pitch. Because of the quality and side plate thickness of good Japanese and German 219 chain they are good up to 15+ horsepower. More than enough for the GNG.

My 219 adapters with sprockets:
Image

Just by coincidence these parts will also work on the Gen 2. The Gen 2 driver also uses an 11mm keyed bore.
The stock Gen 2 driver is on the right.
Image

You can see the difference between the pitch of 1/2" and .3" 219. Even with more teeth on the driver (12T is a good minimum anyway for decent chain life) you can more than make up for it on the driven side. I'm going to use 12/80 for 6.66:1 on my own bike. You can make the gearing on your Gen 2 pretty much anything you want by mixing drivers and driven sprockets.



ericbojo wrote:I'm 90% sure the controller is fried on delivery.

I tested my battery its showing 55 volts at full charge. There is no longer a pop when I connect the controller, it only happened the first time and not after. I did connect the Ignition wire to the positive terminal and still nothing. There was literaly Zero instructions on setting this kit up..

One of the wires to the motor from the controller side was loose (blue thick wire from the 3 pin connector) and i re did that pin so it connects properly but still nothing.

I hooked everything up and i got no voltage to the motor wires when i use the throttle.

I checked the controller directly i do see voltage at the terminals but no where else in the controller, with or without throttle. So I'm pretty sure this controller fried and never properly tested in the first place.

I bet you didn't connect thr thin red ignition wire to the battery.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Arbol » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:07 am

LightningRods wrote:Well as luck would have it....

I've been working for weeks developing a #219 secondary drive for the Gen 1 kits. I designed a 3/4" to 11mm adapter so that I could fit a 12 tooth 219 driver on the secondary. I also designed a freewheel to 5 1/4" kart sprocket adapter plate. The 3/4" to 11mm will work with 12T, 13T and 14T 219 sprockets with a 3/4" bore. There is a HUGE range of kart sprockets available from 65T to 93T. A 75T is almost identical in diameter to a 48T 1/2" chain sprocket. The difference is the .3" link pitch. Because of the quality and side plate thickness of good Japanese and German 219 chain they are good up to 15+ horsepower. More than enough for the GNG.

My 219 adapters with sprockets:
Image

Just by coincidence these parts will also work on the Gen 2. The Gen 2 driver also uses an 11mm keyed bore.
The stock Gen 2 driver is on the right.
Image

You can see the difference between the pitch of 1/2" and .3" 219. Even with more teeth on the driver (12T is a good minimum anyway for decent chain life) you can more than make up for it on the driven side. I'm going to use 12/80 for 6.66:1 on my own bike. You can make the gearing on your Gen 2 pretty much anything you want by mixing drivers and driven sprockets.


I am still learning, and maybe I will say a few stoopid things, sorry if I do. Also, English is not my mother language, so I may fail to use the right technical terms. Please correct me the following summary of LightningRods comment, if necessary:

I understand #219 is some kind of kart transmission, which is able to withstand quite a lot of power. LightningRods suggest to use a (front) sprocket of 80 teeth and a (rear) cog of 12 teeth, resulting in a reduction of 6.66:1. Under "normal" bike transmissions, the (front) sprocket would be something like 44 teeth, and the smallest rear cog could also be 12 teeth (or 13, or 11, for example).

- Since usually large front sprockets and small rear cogs are used to high power and speed, would a 80 teeth sprocket result in a very hard pedalling? Or the "harshness" of a 80 teeth in 219 is similar to the 44 teeth of a normal bike transmission?
- I understand the front sprocket in 219 needs to be specific to 219, one cannot use "normal" sprockets (eg, 80 teeth vs 44 teeth). However, the rear cog is 12 teeth, which is similar to normal rear cogs for normal bike transmissions. Is there rear sprocket also specific to 219, or can one use normal bike rear sprockets? In any case, how many gears may one have in the rear? (assuming one has only one front sprocket, without a front derrailleur).
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:17 am

Arbol, welcome! Below is a graphic of a system similar to the Gen-2 GNG kit, and the chain that is being discussed is the one that connects the motor to the pedal-axle. The motor must have some type of freewheel on either the small sprocket or the large one. If you use normal 1/2-inch pitch bicycle chain, and the freewheel is on the motor end, The smallest tooth-count available is 13T with the teeth being 1/2-inch apart. (Chain pitch = distance between the pins, but the teeth are also the same distance apart)

If you move the freewheel to the large sprocket (on the pedal-axle) then the small sprocket can be much smaller. I have seen a 6-tooth sprocket before, but when it is spinning fast, they make a lot of noise, plus they wear out the chain much faster. For many reasons, a 12T sprocket is the smallest number where the chain noise and wear is much better.

Once you have moved the freewheel to the large sprocket, and you use a sprocket that is separate from the freewheel at its core, you can use several different types of chain for the section between the motor and the pedal-axle. #219 is widely available, and is very strong. For the 900W GNG Gen-2 kit, the strength of the slightly less expensive #25 chain would be adequate, but...#219 will definitely last much longer. #25 is slightly less expensive, but in the long-run, #219 is the best choice for the Gen-1 and Gen-2 kits.

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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Arbol » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:31 pm

Ah, now I see, thanks. The overall discussion is about the secondary transmission, which makes a reduction of the motor speed. The "normal" transmission (from pedal to rear wheel) remains unchanged (with possibly the particularity most people will choose not to have a front derrailleur, unlike most normal bikes). Is that right?
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby LightningRods » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:05 pm

Arbol wrote:Ah, now I see, thanks. The overall discussion is about the secondary transmission, which makes a reduction of the motor speed. The "normal" transmission (from pedal to rear wheel) remains unchanged (with possibly the particularity most people will choose not to have a front derrailleur, unlike most normal bikes). Is that right?


Sounds like you have the concept. Aren't pictures great? They cut right through that language barrier. :D

With the GNG kit there isn't an additional BB drive sprocket. With the Cyclone and Cycle Motive freewheel BB there are three sprockets, the one driven by the motor and two that drive the rear wheel. At least part of the reason is that the GNG has an additional support bearing next to the freewheel. Both the Cyclone and Cycle Motive rely on the freewheel as the sole bearing for the motor sprocket. You can use either of these freewheel cranksets with the GNG Gen 1 or Gen 2.

I picked up the adjustable sheets for the Gen 2 from the laser cutter today. The quality of the cuts are the best I've seen. These are pretty mounts. I need to countersink some screw holes in the shop and then off to the metal plater.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Cypress » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:30 pm

Hi all,

seems like the forum etiquette is for this thread to be related to technical discussions\questions and if you are doing a seperate build that you are documenting, to create a new topic thread.

In that light, here is my build link:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=52425

Not much there yet, getting the pieces together.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Cypress » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:49 pm

Would you consider disc brakes an essential for this setup? My current project bike doesn't have them.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby speedmd » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:00 am

Hi Cypress

Nice bike. For the gng setups that put the motor in front of the BB/ down tube, it may start to impact ground clearance with the swooped tube. I would see how it fits before settling too deep. For slow speed setup, your brakes will work just fine in dry conditions. If you plan on hopping up the kit for some extra speed, you may want to go with big disks.
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Cypress » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:25 pm

The GNG controller has a pigtail on it labeled e-brake. I have a seen a couple posts on the forum where someone mentions a brake lever with a motor cutoff switch. Is that what the e-brake wire is intended to attach to? I have tried searching the forum to find some details on how to set that up, but not having much luck with the search tool. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2 with Nuvinci N360

Postby d8veh » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:39 am

Just an update on my bike. I finally managed to get a replacement 9T sprocket. I didnt like the 13T at all. I know I could have modified it for a bigger chainwheel, but I couldn't be bothered. I'm running this motor at 36v with a KU123 controller at 30 amps. It was the huge torque from the 30 amps that smashed my last 9T sprockrt, so I'm trying to be careful this time.

Recently, I fitted a Nuvinci N360 CVT to the back wheel. I think that this is the perfect partner for the GNG Gen2. Fitting was very straight-forward. I used the original derailleur as a chain tensioner.

I use a Conhismotor controller with 5 Levels of PAS - settable through a LCD display. These levels affect the crank speed as it's a speed control controller. Level one is very gentle and allows you to pedal as hard as you want. Level 5 gives maximum power for high speed cruising.

I think I'm using a 18T sprocket, which with the standard GNG chainwheel allows me to pedal up to about 25mph without going nuts. Bottom gear is low enough to climb pretty steep hills with the motor, but without the motor, anything more than 10% would be hard work.

I have managed to make it slip a couple of times by using two much throttle in too high a gear. I think 25 amps at 36v would be fail-safe in that respect. I'm quite heavy at 100kg. If you're lighter, you could probably go to a bit higher on the amps.

The riding experience is really nice. I set the level on the PAS, which sort of gives a power level, and then the gear control twist-grip becomes a sort of speed control. It takes a while to adjust to the new way of controlling the bike, because it's completely different to a hub-motor, although once you're acclimatised, it's very pleasant.

The GNG Gen 2 at 36v with the Nuvinci is not a power monster. It can cruise at just over 20mph on the flat with a top speed of about 25 mph in favourable conditions; however it can deal with most hills that you're likely to encounter, going slowly in bottom gear, and it has a lot more power than the 250w Bafang BBS01.
https://www.juicebikes.co/gb/shop/5612- ... Vinci-N360

Image

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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby LightningRods » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:02 pm

My adjustable sheets for the Gen 2 are back from the plater and ready to ship. They have a simple alternator style swing/slide adjuster and better quality steel than the stock sheets. I've also beefed up areas that I felt were weak in the stock design. I have both the new center mount motor brackets and the original rim mount motor brackets. These sheets eliminate the cheesy red plastic tensioner wheel. PM me if you would like a set.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Mic » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:37 am

Hi!
Can I drive the 48V kit with the original controller at 75V ? Tried already a short time and it works perfect, but I´m scared to burn the components.. :roll:

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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:04 pm

The top voltage limit on a controller is the max-volts rating of the capacitors, though there is some "wiggle room" on the labeled rating. The typical rating of capacitors in a 48V controller is 63V, but they could be 100V cpacitors and they would work fine.

The lowest voltage you can use is limited by the Low-Voltage-Cutoff (LVC). If you run a 48V controller at 60V and it works, the battery will drain until it gets to the roughly 40-volt LVC. A 48V battery at 40-volts is low, and needs to be recharged, a 60V battery at 40V might have been discharged so low that it is damaged...an expensive mistake.

Lyens controllers have capacitors with fairly high voltage ratings, and his controllers have an adjustable LVC that can be programmed. This way you can start out on 36V and then later move up to 48V, 60V or 72V with a simple reprogramming of the LVC.

edit: could you open the controller and post a picture of it?
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby 1KW » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:27 pm

bryn wrote:New build using the 400w Gen 2 , using the Nuvinci Harmony auto shift hub. 29er Tomac flint frame and a few other nice little bits.
Weve been pottering around with this build for a while, ordering little bit as we went. Its designed for major offroad use and
has proven itsself to be a real hill climber. Were running it on a 48v 16.8ah lithium ion battery from QB Bikes in Spain,(nice and light!! and lasts forever)
Were just running stock controller as the power is ample for steady hill climbs not wasting too much battery power in doing so.
We opted to get a 13tooth sprocket made for the motor to engague more teeth. And put a smaller chain wheel 22teeth on the primary side. The stock freewheel from the chain wheel crank set up, has been changed for a GT 120 click one, a lot stronger.
We stayed standard 38t on the chain wheel secondary side delivering power to the 22 tooth on the Nuvinci Harmony.

Lovely set up.

The first build we did was with the 450w 48v GNG Belt drive system. This is a really good hill climbing setup. but the GEN2 is far less maintenance. its the winner.

Whats the top speed looking like with a 29'er on 48v?
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby 1KW » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:38 pm

If I run this kit at 75v 18amps....would a 5ah battery get me 12 miles at WOT? These kits are more efficient than hubs?

Also, would it run at 32mph at higher voltage, less ahs?
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Mic » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:02 pm

48V - gen2
- 20A peak (original controller)
- 12s Lipo 10Ah
- 28" "streetbike" = 42km/h and 30km

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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby crossbreak » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:33 pm

1KW wrote:If I run this kit at 75v 18amps....would a 5ah battery get me 12 miles at WOT? These kits are more efficient than hubs?

Also, would it run at 32mph at higher voltage, less ahs?



This is basically a converted hubmotor. At hills it will be more efficient if you shift down. On a flat road it wont make much of a difference. 12miles is not realistic with WOT for a tiny 5ah battery. maybe 10
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby Mic » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:38 am

crossbreak wrote:
1KW wrote:If I run this kit at 75v 18amps....would a 5ah battery get me 12 miles at WOT? These kits are more efficient than hubs?

Also, would it run at 32mph at higher voltage, less ahs?



This is basically a converted hubmotor. At hills it will be more efficient if you shift down. On a flat road it wont make much of a difference. 12miles is not realistic with WOT for a tiny 5ah battery. maybe 10


Yes thats it - I test it yesterday and I run 9.3 miles (15km) with 18s lipo (75V) and 5Ah at 20A peak into LVC - waiting now for batteries from HK ;)
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Re: GNG Drive Gen2

Postby melodious » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:33 am

Mic wrote:
crossbreak wrote:
1KW wrote:If I run this kit at 75v 18amps....would a 5ah battery get me 12 miles at WOT? These kits are more efficient than hubs?

Also, would it run at 32mph at higher voltage, less ahs?



This is basically a converted hubmotor. At hills it will be more efficient if you shift down. On a flat road it wont make much of a difference. 12miles is not realistic with WOT for a tiny 5ah battery. maybe 10


Yes thats it - I test it yesterday and I run 9.3 miles (15km) with 18s lipo (75V) and 5Ah at 20A peak into LVC - waiting now for batteries from HK ;)


Thank you for actually performing this overvolting of the GNG Gen2 kit. I was of the opinion that it would cause extremely premature wear on the gears :?:

Maybe it won't with your amp limit set to 20 :wink:

Your not popping wheelies with this setup are you :?:
Tern folding bike 20" wheels, front q83 @36V 20AH & 15A: 15mph sidewalk sidewinder
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
In the works: 42" dual diagonal Eskateboard @6s, Snow/Fatbike mid drive, RC Lipo agh!
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