Bikee Tomcat electric mid-drive eDH bike

Bikee Tomcat electric mid-drive eDH bike :

Bikee Bike - Bike e Bike Tomcat 'The extreme Electric Downhill bike'



http://www.bikeebike.com
https://www.facebook.com/bikeebikefan

ES phasebook threads:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566/permalink/574144162654656/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/125...970603/?ref=notif&notif_t=group_comment_reply

Anybody had a chance to test this new kit. Would like to get some feedback . Looking for a new kit for my e bike mid drive bicycle . I have a cyclone 1680w now . It was fun to build and my only complaint is how loud it is. Do you guys think this Bikee bike kit ,will it have the power I'm looking for. Also looking at the power6000w-8000w cyclone non-geared motor...?

http://www.bikeebike.com/best-mid-drive-kits.html





This is a new product I haven't seen before. The website claims that a buyer can specify either 250W/500W/750W, which covers most of the international power-limit bases. They must have several windings available (the motors Kv), because you must specify whether you will use 48V or 72V. They also claim to be based in Italy, and these kits are only available as a pre-order, so...there are none in stock and ready to ship yet.

Nobody has asked, but...my thoughts? Whatever power level these provide, they should run very quietly, since they appear to be a direct-drive with no reduction (low magnet speed), and...the controller "appears" to be integrated into the center of the motor. High volts/low amps?

I suspect it is an outrunner, with the magnet bowl attached to the crank-arm (I approve, but would prefer the motor on the left side to allow a selection and number of off-the-shelf chainrings).

The chainring is proprietary, so when it wears out it can only be purchased from the OEM. There are several similar drives, such as AEG, Bionicon, Electragil Acron...(http://www.electricbike.com/2014-mid-drive/). Even so, the rear wheel could easily have an affordable 9-speed cassette.

The previously named drives do not sell as kits, so bikee may have a short-lived advantage there (if the price is reasonable).

The AEG also mounts the motor on the right side (like the bikee), but they specify an upgrade carbon belt driving a single-sprocket IGH in the rear. The Bionicon and Electragil Acron mount their motor on the left side, so the bike can use 2 or three chainrings as desired, also using conventional chainrings that can be replaced when they wear out, or the rider desires a different tooth-count. the Bionicon and Electragil both have a metal housing to use as a heat-sink, however, the higher volts in the bikee may allow low enough amps that this is not an issue.

If I was asked by their designer for suggestions while it was still in the design stage? Mount the motor on the left with a metal housing for a heat sink. The controller should be a slender unit and separate from the motor, which can be attached to the downtube or seat-tube just a couple inches away from the motor. This change alone will allow much more heat survivability, since having the controller and motor inside the same housing limits the heat-shedding ability (how difficult is it for the installer to plug in the separate controller and hose-clamp it just a couple inches away?)

With the low magnet speed, the 48V / 250W version left a lot of torque on the table, although they also don't have the extra weight and cost of a reduction. With a sine-wave controller, this drive should be virtually silent. If the simplicity allows the seller to keep the price low, I can see this surviving in a 250W legal zone on the street. For off-road or 500W+ zones...I just don't think they will be able to compete with the variety of mid drives that are/will be available (BBS02/MXUS, etc)

For very low assist, this looks like a winner. The Q factor is 200 mm running three chainrings. Given that the whole motor is hanging out past the bottom bracket, that is not too bad.

http://cloud2evo.com/home/374-bionicon-e-ram

I just ran across this...maybe you have already seen it... I'm still undecided on it, Seems fairly expensive though and may just be vaporware.
http://www.bikeebike.com/best-mid-drive-kits.html

price unreal

Originally posted in Dec 2013, and since they are drawings instead of a real prototype (with a high deposit)...I am suspicious as to whether they will actually deliver a product?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=56037

I thought i had seen it before....but as usual the search function didn't return a result. Thanks Ron!

I am suspicious as to whether they will actually deliver a product?

Click to expand...

price unreal

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Uh. At the offered price, no need to be suspicious. that thing is DOA. Maybe the tax is really high there but for just that kit you can write a check here in the USA and roll right out on a new Pedego.

Hello Everybody,

I guess it's time to introduce me. I'm Matteo Spaggiari, the founder of Bikee Bike. As all developers, I've been following this forum with extreme interest, since I believe that there's more innovation here than on the market.

Since I noticed maybe two or three threads about Bikee Bike on this forum, I'd like to give you an update about the path we're into, what you can expect in the next month and when we'll be in production. I used to be more active on the Facebook page of Endless Sphere, because I've always felt that's a more direct conversation, opposed to the very high quality and technical conversations you can have in here.

I'm a mech engineer who spent the last 7 years in developing electric vehicle powertrains, mostly for heavy four-wheeled vehicles such as electric delivery lorries and schoolbuses. I stumbled then into the e-bike world and I got very passionate about it since the very first moment. I thought I could improve what was on the market basing on my past experience. So I started to put down a project about how I would have perfected or built the ideal motor for an e-bike.

I admit I followed with extreme interest tons of threads in here, and the current Bikee Bike product reflects a lot of those. I started to post the updates about my project till the point I got noticed by a seed fund here in Italy who contacted me because they were interested in investing into the project. The seed fund is called Industrio ( http://www.industrio.co ). I quit my day job in March to pursue this project. Small money, but a lot of energy.

We are making progress: you can check our facebook page in which you'll find all the updates: https://www.facebook.com/bikeebikefan

Talking with Endless Sphere guys on Facebook, they suggested to launch a project on Kickstarter. I believe that's the way we'll go before the end of the year.

It's an extremely tough market because there are huge players, but I guess we have a couple of good points in our design. We slowed down a little bit so that we could achieve passionate's feedback at every step. And one of the reason I'm writing here is because I'd love to hear some feedback from you.

I believe Spinning Magnets already covered our kit in another thread. Well I'm here and I'm open to reply to almost all of your questions. I'm saying almost because in the meanwhile we are proceeding with some patents on some particular aspects of the motor so we cannot get into the finest details at this stage.

We are now putting together the rev #3 which should be the ultimate. By the end of the summer we'll be posting some video of the kit and hopefully we'll kick some ... Then, the Start of Production date is forecasted for January.

I'd like to give back to this community, so I'm thinking about a special discount for ES members. I'm not still sure about how to do that on Kickstarter, but I'll work on that.

Again, I'm extremely interested into your comments, so please feel free to ask, suggest and comment.

Thanks in advance,
Matteo

Looks GREAT but price needs to come down. I'd rethink the colour also?
Fatbike option should be possible

Hi Bikengineer.

Thanks for the GREAT!

About pricing: I really can't wait to show you what's inside the motor so that you can have a grasp of the technology we are putting into this motor. I definetely want to lower the price, but that's achieveble only with high production volumes.

That's why I agree kickstarter is the way to go: that will allow us to open the toolings we need to keep the production cost down, and so the price will benefit from it.

Sure about the colour: we'll offer some alternatives: white, black and grey are in the pipeline, any other preference?

About fatbikes, I'm not sure those have a standard BB or the most popular ones. I made a quick search and found many BB dimensions, any thought?

Thanks,
Matteo

I would think you would want an option for 68 and 100mm BB's.

73mm maybe, but being the odd-one out now with the huge increase of 100mm fat bikes. There also seems to be an influx of ebike specific frames that use 100mm BB.

Either way, well done bringing this through to market.

Matteo, Glad to hear you are making progress, it is obvious everyone here on ES loves innovation, I wish everyone good luck in their business. As you know e-bikes are a huge business, and a tough business, but I do believe you are on the right path with your design. I'm sure you'll receive some great advice from some very brilliant people here. Good luck!

Hi r3volved, we are covered for the 68mm BB and we already planned the 100mm version. I guess we can make the 100mm somehow work on the 73mm, we'll check that.

Hi KMB, love to hear your support and I'd love to have some advice from ES' members. I know there are spectacular people here who are far beyond the current technical state of the art of commercial e-bikes.

We are still flexible in terms of controllers: we tested 4 brands by now, but not yet completely satisfied. We are looking for RELIABLE sine-wave controllers which we should be able to program to fit our needs (sensored, max current set, over temp protection, PAS input, Throttle input, brake input, speed limit, power limit, high efficiency, reasonably priced) : any suggestion about that?

The compactness of the controller is a plus we value a lot.

Thanks,
Matteo

How do you plan to differentiate yourself from the offerings currently on the market? At your current pricepoint, it would seem this is a premium product aimed at a more affluent crowd. But that more affluent crowd generally doesn't like to DIY and install something like this.

Specifically, compared to something like Bafang BBS02 750W middrive with a good price, how will you attract customers? What sets you apart besides patent pending tech?

windtrader said:

Uh. At the offered price, no need to be suspicious. that thing is DOA.

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Ecospeed seem to be thriving, with a higher priced offering which doesn't include a battery....

All good valid points.^^^

Anyone with the motivation to bring innovation to the market gets a high give from me! Only my best wishes for bikee.

@Miles
Including the battery eases the price point somewhat yet the kit remains firmly in the top end of the DIY kit ebike market. Referencing current competing companies such as ecospeed affirms a viable market for such products. New entrants into any small niche market face increased challenge over the broader mid market.

Most here have far greater experience watching this nascent ebike DIY market evolve over the years than I but no one argues this a niche market in the USA. Existing RC vendors supplying source components such as motors and controllers to the DIY ebike market have few if any products adapted for this segment. Why aren't there any ebike controllers designed for small powerful RC motors? The investment would be minimal to design and develop code for controllers mated to RC motors for ebike applications. A duo of ebike controller and motor could offer great value and sell quite nicely yet this void remains unfilled, probably driven by perceived or real lack of sufficient opportunity or return on investment.

Global industrial companies such as Bosch and Panasonic are seizing the opportunity in the ebike market; evidenced by recent introductions of integrated mid-drive power units for bikes. These new OEM components demonstrate the commitment, power, backing, and engineering resources to this emerging market. They are elegant, certainly well tested, reliable, and well supported post sale.

As the big brands start increasingly designing bikes using them and contracting for drive units in lots of many thousands, the price will become more attractive to more consumers. Not sure what happens to the current high end DIY kit ebike as this evolves over the coming season or two but bikee needs to quickly develop a unique and compelling proposition to create and retain a foothold in this quickly changing landscape.

Innovation of all kinds is super and wonderful to see. Wishing bikee the very best in their endeavour.

I assume it is a direct drive motor with no gearing. If so that might worth a price premium.

Also if it is direct drive could I use a fixed gear in the rear (no freewheel) and have a fixie with regen, or does the motor have a freewheel? That would be so cool and really connect the rider and the motor. Fixies are fun but kill your knees braking on hills, but with regen . Could also appeal to the big hipster market worldwide hahaha :lol:

Are the quoted motor torque specs at the motor or at the wheel?

The white motor and white battery on the black frame looks ehhhhhh. Probably 3d printed I assume or you really just want to show it off. If you do a kickstarter be sure to also show off a black stealth version in the video.

If you can swing it (depending on the funds you raise on kickstarter or whatever) I would try to get a custom FOC controller in there and also a torque sensor. If you want to command a premium price the controller has to be better than a cheap chinese sin controller that isn't a true sinus controller. Use either NCR18650PD cells or INR18650-29E cells (NCA like Tesla). Don't use an off the shelf chinese BMS. Look at the specialized turbo. They are trying to create a universal ebike charging connector using a high quality german connector. Also looks at NTS Works in Santa Cruz for inspiration. Your battery could be smaller for the average rider. Also realize it is much harder to sell a legit/legal battery (that won't kill someone) for a startup out of Italy (EU) than some company operating under the radar in China. Much testing is needed (think water, salt, vibration, compliance). The motor should be the easy part.

Also you need a better name and logo. Sorry. It sucks. Just being honest. No hard feelings. Not that terrible names have stopped other companies, but if you want to go big time...

http://www.ti.com/ww/en/mcu/instaspin/instaspin-foc.shtml

It's great to see this kind of feedback. I really appreciate that.

@ cal3thousand: as Miles said, the pricepoint of our kit is actually the most convenient if you compare it with Ecospeed and Ego Kit. I know there are margins to improve that with high volume production and we'll be pursuing that.

As for the Bafang kit, of course we cannot compete with Chinese on prices, and that's not what we want to do. You can find many Chinese kits on the market with incredible prices, see this for instance which come at 63USD without battery: http://enggauto.en.alibaba.com/product/1927849438-221116453/electric_rickshaw_spare_parts.html .This is probably the kind of motor which comes with more popular brands. But I guess a person should make a decision from the beginning: do you want to buy a Chinese product without warranty whatsoever and without certifications or do you want to buy something different?

Personally I'd feel more sure having a company backing the product in terms of warranty and liability: Lithium batteries can be dangerous. As Flathill was saying, it's hard to get all certifications ( and I mean the real ones) but those are there for a purpose: they keep you safe and avoid your house to burn. Not all chinese products can offer that. Our motor is designed specifically for the e-bike and it is manufactured in Italy.

Keeping that in mind, that's a good question. To aswer you in three points:
Our motor will give you more torque (at the crank) than a Clyte C100,
along with a balanced lightweight (under 4Kg for the 750W, battery not included)+
Designed to maximize the user experience (extremely easy installation, no additional chains to the crank, design: we are now having an Italian design working to improve the overall look respect to the version you see in our website, custom app for smartphones)

Not everybody has the high skills you guys have so an easy installation hopefully will open up the market to more customers, allowing us to be more and more attractive.

@windtrader: Thanks for the high five! You made an excellent analysis. Global industrial companies are not interested in getting into the DIY or "opensource" mid drive e-bike because it's a very niche market right now, but for surely they'll fight.Thanks for your wishes!

@Flathill: the motor is a direct drive in the sense that you don't need an additional chain to your crank. Gears are inside and those are made of metal to handle the torque the motor can exert. The motor has two freewheels. I believe very few people would install a mid drive motor on a fixie ( but that's my personal opinion) so the big hipster market will have to approach our motor in a different way!

About performace, I gave an hint about torque above. We are now perfecting further the stator design to maximize efficiency, so I don't want to throw data which are not the ultimate ones in there. The performance we are achieving are now superior to what we wrote on our website.

You are right about the 3D printed version and the black stealth version will be the in the Kickstarter campaign!

We'll be using an Italian BMS and we are still looking for the perfect controller in the meanwhile we are developing ours. Thanks for your suggestion about that. We'll be checking that.

About the logo and brand name: you share the same view as my brother! Luca is it you?!? ;D
Joking aside, our logo is a tribute to the classic Italian car manufacturers ( Ferrari, Lamborghini, Abarth) and has that style. It might not be the freshest in terms of design, but it is inspired to great companies, with logos from the '30s and '50s who were and are loved all around the world. Since we share the same land ( the first two companies are within 80 miles from were I grown up) I thought a tribute to them was due. Please forgive this little thing I have towards these companies.

Awesome feedback,
Thanks,
Matteo

I believe it would make more sense to make a 73mm version than a 68mm version. Most external MTB bottom bracket bearings are made for 73 mm, and use spacers to adapt to a 68 mm BB. This is standard. All my MTB's in the last five years have a 68 mm BB and use spacers to fit the MTB bearing cups. The same thing can be done on road frames. Example: http://media.performancebike.com/images/performance/products/1500/50-8515-NCL-TOP.jpg

My Fatbike is 100 mm.

The logo would look cool on the headtube of a bike for sure, but that is not your market. You are a highend version of the Bafang BBS middrive kit....with better looks, higher efficiency (hopefully), made (assembled) in Italy quality, sinus drive for silence and smoothness, and hopefully a strain gauge based torque sensor, better chainline, and most importantly no reduction in ground clearance!

BIKEE just sounds silly and is not an optimal name. The name must be easily googleable and come up first. If I told my friend to google bikee ebike would he would likely hear it as bike ebike and google that

How does it sound with metal gears? Are the helical or straight cut? Plastic gears have a bad reputation but high end plastic gears (the kind Honda uses, which cost MORE than straight cut metal gears) will be quieter. Make sure the panels covering the motor are well damped and ribbed to prevent them from becoming a sounding board.

Lack of any noise would get me interested in putting it on a trike boom. Steintrikes could get interested, which would certainly help you in Europe.
otherDoc

Docnjoj, my thoughts exactly.....