Sunstar Sues Bafang

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

Sunstar Sues over Bafang infringement

I wonder what this means to the many hobbyists using the Bafang kit. Not much? How about future parts availability? Or will this just be settled as a claim requesting lost revenue reimbursement?

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

Sunstar Announces Filing of Patent Infringement Action in Germany Against Bafang

On 19 August 2014, Sunstar Giken Kabushiki Kaisha and Sunstar Singapore Pte Ltd (Sunstar) filed a court action against Suzhou Bafang Electric Motor Science Technology Co., Ltd. (Bafang) for infringement of the German part of its European patent EP 2 143 628, by Bafang’s electric mid-motor “BBS01″. Sunstar claims injunctive relief and damages from Bafang. The complaint was filed with the Regional Court Düsseldorf (court docket 4a O 82/14) and served on Bafang during the Eurobike 2014 tradeshow, which is held from August 26 to 30 in Friedrichshafen.

Injunctive relief is what bothers me. It could mean a request to stop manufacture and sales. It's parts availability that is my concern.

speedmd · Sep 17, 2014

Sunstar has a been where for all these months? Have not heard of them before now. Imagine the hub motor went through the same exercises as there is only so many ways to make them look/ constructed differently. I do not see any way they will get the avalanche stopped at this point and see them fighting this as a uphill fight in a Chinese court. For us, it means most likely a soon new/ redesigned BBS that hopefully is much much better yet and maybe looks a bit different.

spinningmagnets · Sep 17, 2014

Sunstar has been making and marketing a 250W drive in Asia and Europe for a while. Personally I do believe that the BBS02 design from Bafang is a rip-off, but...no Sunstar kits have been marketed in N. America, and they do not even make a 750W version.

edit: incorrect info removed to avoid misleading others

wineboyrider · Sep 17, 2014

How much do these Sunstar things cost in Europe?

tahustvedt · Sep 17, 2014

spinningmagnets said:
Sunstar has been making and marketing a 250W drive in Asia and Europe for a while. Personally I do believe that the BBS02 design from Bafang is a rip-off, but...no Sunstar kits have been marketed in N. America, and they do not even make a 750W version.

The lower-powered Sunstar has a narrower Q-factor, which allows it to have a conventional central spider to attach chainrings to. That is my biggest issue as it pertains to a design deficiency for the BBS02.

Are you sure about the Q-factor? In the pictures it looks like the chainline might be even worse than the BBS units.

sunstar%20ibike%20so3%20pedelec%20system%20600.jpg

spinningmagnets · Sep 17, 2014

You are probably right, I type faster than I think. The chainline probably is pretty bad.

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

wineboyrider said:
How much do these Sunstar things cost in Europe?

I've read they are over a thousand pounds. Which is far more than I paid for my BBS02.

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

spinningmagnets said:
Sunstar has been making and marketing a 250W drive in Asia and Europe for

I remember reading a post of yours which said that the BBS series is almost a direct copy! I guess you saw this lawsuit comming way back when!

teklektik · Sep 17, 2014

View attachment SunStar-Patent_EP-2-143-628-B1.pdf

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

spinningmagnets said:
That is my biggest issue as it pertains to a design deficiency for the BBS02.

I read where the Sunstar uses a torque sensor for its pedelec. That would be better than I find with the BBS02's ON/OFF switch triggered by barely moving the crank. I really have to program the one I'm working with to slowly ramp up power. I want to use my legs to get moving from a stop and let the motor kick in slowly; gradually. If I need a burst of power, I'll use the throttle.

tahustvedt · Sep 17, 2014

wineboyrider said:
How much do these Sunstar things cost in Europe?

£770 at the store which hosts the picture I posted.

TheBeastie · Sep 17, 2014

spinningmagnets said:
Sunstar has been making and marketing a 250W drive in Asia and Europe for a while. Personally I do believe that the BBS02 design from Bafang is a rip-off, but...no Sunstar kits have been marketed in N. America, and they do not even make a 750W version.

The lower-powered Sunstar has a narrower Q-factor, which allows it to have a conventional central spider to attach chainrings to. That is my biggest issue as it pertains to a design deficiency for the BBS02.

I wondered how bafang came out swinging with a pretty complete and rather well liked crank-drive so quickly with not a lot of time in the area as they are mostly in hubmotors.
This explains a lot, thanks for pointing out I never knew of Sunstar. I was thinking that BaFang must just have good engineers till now, but makes perfect sense.

I don't know much about how effectively western companies are at sucking money out of Chinese companies, I am thinking Germany or maybe the EU could ban imports of Bafangs gear until they pay up if they loose in court etc.

Guess thats an upside to being in AU, I think AU has been the beneficiary of the smart phone wars, when Apple blocked Samsung and HTC phones they came here considerably cheaper then I think they would of normally liked to sell them.

speedmd · Sep 17, 2014

I see enough differences in the clutch / freewheel components to say, it is not close to being a copy other than similar outer form of the unit. BBS looks much improved over the sunstar mechanically at least going by the drawings. I don't see how they are claiming attachment to a bike through a bb for patent but have seen much crazier stuff awarded in Europe. Maybe that is a one part design? I bet a reverse suit is being filed in china right now. I guess it comes down to who proves first with the concept.

Miles · Sep 17, 2014

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1098

spinningmagnets · Sep 17, 2014

Thanks, Miles. It "looks like" the 1999 patent is the earliest with the drive unit? edit: the 1999 has most of the drive unit in its current form, but the power is added to the chainring by a a donkey gear? instead of powering the BB shaft.

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...p&FT=D&date=20050208&CC=US&NR=6851497B1&KC=B1

0utrider · Sep 17, 2014

spinningmagnets said:
Thanks, Miles. It "looks like" the 1999 patent is the earliest with the drive unit?

SUNSTAR: Sustaining a healthy body through a healthy mouth and electric bicycles!

spinningmagnets · Sep 17, 2014

It looks like the patent #16 in your link is a bracket to attach the drive to a common 68mm BB, and patent #21 is that same bracket holding a motor that drives a 2-chainring set, one is driven by the motor, and the second drives the rear wheel, both from June 2001.

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...&FT=D&date=20021218&CC=JP&NR=2002362468A&KC=A

PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To substantially eliminate the necessity of an exclusive frame by considerably expanding the versatility in installation of a resultant force mechanism. SOLUTION: This power-assisted bicycle capable of traveling by supplementing the stepping force by the electric force comprises a main sprocket [2] rotatable for transmitting the stepping force to a drive wheel, a sub sprocket [30] coaxially rotatable with the main sprocket [2], a drive unit for outputting the electric force according to the stepping force under the predetermined condition, a power sprocket [33] rotated by the electrically output force, and an assist chain [32] stretched between the sub sprocket [30] and the power sprocket [33]

Miles · Sep 17, 2014

Yes, 2001 seems to be the priority date.

The earlier one is like this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=17399

Miles · Sep 17, 2014

Present Bafang mid-drive: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=CN&NR=203172838U&KC=U&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130904&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Earlier design: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=CN&NR=201268382Y&KC=Y&FT=D&ND=3&date=20090708&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

speedmd · Sep 17, 2014

It would make the patents very old at this stage and no longer worth the fight. Sounds like possibly Game Over for them or soon to be.

Sunstar Sues Bafang

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