Haibike crazy price

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EVTodd
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Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 22, 2014 10:07 pm

I would love to get my hands on a Haibike. I imagine the Bosch drive system is amazing quality but I just ran across this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-2015-Haibik ... 19f78598a7

$5200?!?! Really? Is that a typo? For a bike that has a 20 mph top speed? I'm sorry but that's just crazy. It's obviously a nice bike but holy cow, you can get a uber exotic bike for a lot less than that. Who buys these things? People with more money than me obviously.

I kind of thought Haibike would push ebikes into the mainstream here in the United States but not at those prices.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by maxwell92036 » Dec 23, 2014 10:26 am

That is pretty much the going price. Been into a bike shop lately and looked at the price of non motorized full suspension bikes? Many over $5,000. Of course you could go to Wallmart and pick up a full suspension bike for under $200. If you want a Bosch system on a quality bike you have to pay the piper.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by Avitt » Dec 23, 2014 10:44 am

Wait a bit...

The Bafang MAX drive, which looks like a direct Bosch competitor, is being introduced in Q1. According to this article, it will be targeted at bikes costing less than 2000 euro:

http://www.bike-eu.com/Home/General/201 ... -1648999W/

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by melodious » Dec 23, 2014 12:30 pm

And wait bit longer still if you want a Bafang Max system that puts more than the European protocol (250-350w).
It's a unusually powerful mid-motor system capable of a maximum torque of 80Nm. Hence the Bafang Max Drive is not only suited for the regular 25km/h e-bikes, but for s-pedelecs too. Maximum power of the Bafang Max Drive is 250 – 350W, while the 43V/16Ah battery is with 690Wh also highly potent.
That's the way the ball bounces unfortunately, the land of 500-750w power are the last to get served.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 23, 2014 1:08 pm

maxwell92036 wrote:That is pretty much the going price. Been into a bike shop lately and looked at the price of non motorized full suspension bikes? Many over $5,000. Of course you could go to Wallmart and pick up a full suspension bike for under $200. If you want a Bosch system on a quality bike you have to pay the piper.

Yup, been to many bike shops lately. I don't think I've seen anything even close to $5000. My personal opinion is if you are paying over $1000 for a bike you're doing it for bragging rights. If I had unlimited funds I might think differently but I doubt it. There's only so much to be gained on a bike by throwing more money at it.

I'm sure the quality is great since it's a Bosch drive but that makes no economical sense at all. What would the point be of owning one? You can buy a lot of gas for $5000.

I hope everyone else is right and the prices come down. Actually though, after doing some more reading about how everything is proprietary on these like the battery, esc, etc that makes them even less appealing. Too bad, they look fantastic.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 23, 2014 3:40 pm

Ah, just found this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ke#p961066

I guess my complaining is a little redundant :lol: .

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by 100volts+ » Dec 23, 2014 3:53 pm

From what i hear you are ok if in warranty but if it fails one day after warranty expires just throw it away
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by 100volts+ » Dec 23, 2014 3:54 pm

Oops just saw the other thread. My complaint is also redundant.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =1&t=57440

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by maxwell92036 » Dec 23, 2014 3:56 pm

EVTodd wrote:
maxwell92036 wrote:That is pretty much the going price. Been into a bike shop lately and looked at the price of non motorized full suspension bikes? Many over $5,000. Of course you could go to Wallmart and pick up a full suspension bike for under $200. If you want a Bosch system on a quality bike you have to pay the piper.

Yup, been to many bike shops lately. I don't think I've seen anything even close to $5000. My personal opinion is if you are paying over $1000 for a bike you're doing it for bragging rights. If I had unlimited funds I might think differently but I doubt it. There's only so much to be gained on a bike by throwing more money at it.

I'm sure the quality is great since it's a Bosch drive but that makes no economical sense at all. What would the point be of owning one? You can buy a lot of gas for $5000.

I hope everyone else is right and the prices come down. Actually though, after doing some more reading about how everything is proprietary on these like the battery, esc, etc that makes them even less appealing. Too bad, they look fantastic.
I am an experienced bicyclist and I know that you get a lot more bike for $2,000 than you get for $1,000. Better wheels, better components, better frame, better shock and the list goes on. A shop I have been into has many bikes over 5 grand and a few close to 10 grand. But the endless sphere group tends to shop Wallmart so those prices look insane.
look here for some greater than 5 grand bikes.
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/mountain-bikes
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by Shorty » Dec 23, 2014 5:00 pm

I recently had a friend who is a keen motorcyclist try out my 2006 Kona Dawg fitted with a Bafang BBS02 48v/750w and an Afline 8 speed IGH and he was blown away with how well it rode and actually went.
In its day it was a very expensive bike which cost about $3k here in Oz, plus the IGH plus the Bafang so it is't hard to get the cost up there.
I bought it secondhand at about 2 years old from the PO with very little use and haven't ridden it much due to extended travelling and recently fitted the Bafang and IGH so as to enable me to use it more as I have a few relatively minor health problems.
As has been said riding a Kmart bike compared to a good quality bike with hydraulic discs and dual suspension is like chalk and cheese.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 23, 2014 5:45 pm

maxwell92036 wrote:
EVTodd wrote:
maxwell92036 wrote:That is pretty much the going price. Been into a bike shop lately and looked at the price of non motorized full suspension bikes? Many over $5,000. Of course you could go to Wallmart and pick up a full suspension bike for under $200. If you want a Bosch system on a quality bike you have to pay the piper.

Yup, been to many bike shops lately. I don't think I've seen anything even close to $5000. My personal opinion is if you are paying over $1000 for a bike you're doing it for bragging rights. If I had unlimited funds I might think differently but I doubt it. There's only so much to be gained on a bike by throwing more money at it.

I'm sure the quality is great since it's a Bosch drive but that makes no economical sense at all. What would the point be of owning one? You can buy a lot of gas for $5000.

I hope everyone else is right and the prices come down. Actually though, after doing some more reading about how everything is proprietary on these like the battery, esc, etc that makes them even less appealing. Too bad, they look fantastic.
I am an experienced bicyclist and I know that you get a lot more bike for $2,000 than you get for $1,000. Better wheels, better components, better frame, better shock and the list goes on. A shop I have been into has many bikes over 5 grand and a few close to 10 grand. But the endless sphere group tends to shop Wallmart so those prices look insane.
look here for some greater than 5 grand bikes.
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/mountain-bikes
I have raced bikes starting with BMX up to mountain bikes since I was 8 years old until I was in my mid 30s. I'm now over 40 and way out of that world but always have and still think those prices are insane. Most bikes that are that expensive are carbon fiber which is, again, in my opinion, a huge waste of money just to shave a couple of pounds off. A good cyclist is just as good on a chromoly frame as they are on carbon fiber. As for other components like wheels, there's only so far you can go with sealed bearings, etc... I get downhill bikes being expensive to a point, but for someone riding a commuter bike, come on. I ride what I would call mid grade bikes, certainly not Walmart but certainly not $5000. I don't mind if a lycra boy laughs at my cheap RST forks. They still get my ass to work.

Most "experienced cyclists" hate electric bikes anyway so again, who is Haibike marketing to? Hell, in this area I think everyone other than me with an ebike is just someone that has a DUI and trying to figure out a way to get around.

And I disagree about most people here on the 'Sphere having department store bikes. Most of the projects I see here use very nice stuff. But hey, if someone can enjoy their Walmart special and get away from their car a little, great. It's too bad they have to put up with all the bike snobs out there these days.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by izeman » Dec 23, 2014 6:22 pm

the bbs02 does in no way come even close to a haibike. i've ridden both and the 100% smooth, natural power multiplying experience of the haibike is just another dimension.
is it worth the extra money? not for me, but if i had the money to spare i would go that route.
and the question is not: how much gas could i buy for 5k. if you see it that way you should just WALK so you could save the bike at all ;)
i have colleagues at the office who ride street bikes for 10k and don't feel ripped off.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by recumpence » Dec 23, 2014 7:51 pm

I build and ride purely for fun. I require a car for work to haul my equipment around. So, there is no commuting by bike for me. I also like high-end components. That being said, I am not too shocked by the price. However, quality only gets you so far in the market. High price should also buy you performance. A Stealth or a Outrider Alfa are expensive, but they have performance on their side.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by mushymelon » Dec 23, 2014 8:28 pm

When I first got into ebikes I started of with the walmart bike and the giant battery on the back.
I thought it was the best thing ever, everyday I would push a little harder and faster until I had a nasty spill.
I have had better builds since then but my latest build has more money into the bike than the electronics, motors and batteries like my previous builds.
The style of riding I do is mostly technical single track, in order to do it safely It requires a decent bike with decent components. I'm not saying that everyone needs an expensive bike for their needs.
I buy mostly used frames and build up the wheels myself and source new components and Its really hard to put together a decent bike for under $1500. I would of though that was nonsense 4 years ago. I almost shit when I went to my LBS for a new wheel set, one wheel cost more than my bike did. I thought he was trying to rip me off. It was not a bad deal just didn't know it at the time. I would buy a Haibike if it was closer to $4000.
I realize now that no matter how awesome your motor, controller, and battery setup is, an ebike is only as good as the bike its built upon.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 23, 2014 10:49 pm

izeman wrote:the bbs02 does in no way come even close to a haibike. i've ridden both and the 100% smooth, natural power multiplying experience of the haibike is just another dimension.
is it worth the extra money? not for me, but if i had the money to spare i would go that route.
and the question is not: how much gas could i buy for 5k. if you see it that way you should just WALK so you could save the bike at all ;)
i have colleagues at the office who ride street bikes for 10k and don't feel ripped off.
Maybe $5k of gas wasn't the best thing to compare it to. But I still think it's a bit valid. A lot of people have an ebike to save at least some money on gas. Isn't that one of the fun things about ebikes? Ya kinda feel like you're sticking it to the oil companies. If I spent $5k on that bike I would feel like I was the one getting stuck. :shock: I can't wrap my head around a 5 or 10k bicycle. That's just me, I just couldn't do it even if I had an insane amount of cash in the bank.

I didn't really mean for this to get off on a tangent about expensive bikes vs cheap bikes. Everyone has an opinion about that, I have hobbies I'm sure people think I'm nuts for spending lots of money on. Most people I know think I spend too much on my ebikes. All I need to do is show them this thread now. lol

And Matt, I totally get that you like expensive components on your bikes but then again, you're building monsters that have crazy high top speeds that need huge hydro brakes and other fun expensive stuff. They are damn near motorcycles and I mean that in a good way, I could see spending big money for the stuff you do. The Haibike is a 20 mph bicycle. I just don't understand where a $5,000, 20 mph bicycle fits in the market in the United States. Bike snobs are going to hate it because of the motor, and people willing to pay that much for an ebike want something more powerful as Matt said.

I don't understand all the Walmart bike comments either, you guys do realize there are bikes in between Walmart and $10,000, right? :lol:

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by maxwell92036 » Dec 23, 2014 11:04 pm

The problem with "performance" is that it puts you on the wrong side of the law. Want to build a powerful "e-bike" then unless you don't use it on the public roads it is illegal. Why build up a motorcycle power level e-bike and expect to get away from properly licensing it or insuring it? Should I be able to build up an electric car and not have to licence it or insure it? I guess I just don't get this part of e-biking.
As for cost you can buy a used quality bike for around $500 or so and then add a Bafang motor and battery for another $1000 or so and have a nice legal ride for a decent price.
If I wanted motorcycle level performance I sure as heck would be looking at something like a Zero motorcycle because it is designed from the ground up to be fast, stable and relatively safe.
A house is only as good as it's foundation. To me when you start getting much over 1000 watts on a bicycle it stops becoming a bicycle because the motor overwhelms the need for pedal assist.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by amberwolf » Dec 24, 2014 1:38 am

maxwell92036 wrote:The problem with "performance" is that it puts you on the wrong side of the law. Want to build a powerful "e-bike" then unless you don't use it on the public roads it is illegal.
You might be careful with broad statements like that; "illegal" depends on where you are.

Here in AZ it is completely legal as long as you operate it under 20MPH.

To me when you start getting much over 1000 watts on a bicycle it stops becoming a bicycle because the motor overwhelms the need for pedal assist.
And what of those that need to haul heavy loads uphill, and/or be able to accelerate quickly in traffic with those loads, so as not to be run over by cars behind them at a traffic light? (or those incapable of pedalling usefully for whatever reason?)

Just because a vehicle has a lot of power doesn't mean it has to be used for speed. Just like any other vehicle, it's entirely up to the operator how the vehicle is used.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by cjh » Dec 24, 2014 3:53 am

EVTodd wrote:
The Haibike is a 20 mph bicycle. I just don't understand where a $5,000, 20 mph bicycle fits in the market in the United States. Bike snobs are going to hate it because of the motor, and people willing to pay that much for an ebike want something more powerful as Matt said.
Maybe it doesn't. The two largest ebike markets in the world are China and Europe where they have lower power and speed limits,not North America. That said, there are plenty of people who are willing to buy into new technology when a good brand name is attached. Is that the majority of people on this forum? I highly doubt it. But there are people who can afford this product at this sort of price point and would never consider building their own ebike. They are buying a brand, support and a total user experience. Different strokes for different folks. Now, where is that Bugatti Veyron?

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by BikeSoupUSA » Dec 24, 2014 4:21 am

I have raced bikes starting with BMX up to mountain bikes since I was 8 years old until I was in my mid 30s. I'm now over 40 and way out of that world but always have and still think those prices are insane. Most bikes that are that expensive are carbon fiber which is, again, in my opinion, a huge waste of money just to shave a couple of pounds off. A good cyclist is just as good on a chromoly frame as they are on carbon fiber. As for other components like wheels, there's only so far you can go with sealed bearings, etc... I get downhill bikes being expensive to a point, but for someone riding a commuter bike, come on. I ride what I would call mid grade bikes, certainly not Walmart but certainly not $5000. I don't mind if a lycra boy laughs at my cheap RST forks. They still get my ass to work.

Most "experienced cyclists" hate electric bikes anyway so again, who is Haibike marketing to? Hell, in this area I think everyone other than me with an ebike is just someone that has a DUI and trying to figure out a way to get around.

And I disagree about most people here on the 'Sphere having department store bikes. Most of the projects I see here use very nice stuff. But hey, if someone can enjoy their Walmart special and get away from their car a little, great. It's too bad they have to put up with all the bike snobs out there these days.

Totally agree. Spandex seems to be cutting off circulation on the $5,000 American bike snob crowd. Since Greg LeMond, they seem to be all about weaponry. It's all about the race, which is not even all that, considering all the doping. Good grief, USAC is even doing amateur dope control.

When bike snobs get old, lose the full-frontal spandex, and want to keep biking, they will go electric. If cycling is all about doping, let's get honest about it. Dope the bike instead.

While nice, Bosch seems to be way over-engineered for the really small bike snob crowd. It has no credibility for the rest of us old '80s era wrenches who just want reasonably priced stuff, that can just go, and not be theft bait.

Looking at today's $200 WallyWorld bikes from the eyes of old-school '80 era bike wrench, the real question is "Who's doing da wrenching?"

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by izeman » Dec 24, 2014 5:08 am

i think making the W/€ or mph/$ quotation is the wrong approach for this kind of bikes and is, sorry to say, a bit an american stereo type (big power for the buck).
if you are in a very restricted market like we are, things look different, and if no one is allowed to go above 25km/h you can sell bikes with high end motor, high end motor/torque controller for a high end price. that's the economy.
and if you need it, if it's worth it, or if you just need a status symbol is up to you :)

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by 100volts+ » Dec 24, 2014 7:02 am

I think most ES members can't imagine paying big bucks for any production Ebike simply because each member has specific goals in a build. For example, I built my bike as a sprint commuter bike. I only have to go to work 6 miles round trip on flat, smooth suburban streets except for 2 sections that I have to gun it to keep up with traffic. Accordingly, my bike will do better than 55mph but is only 8ah (30s8Ah). Some guys need a lot more range or have hills to get over. Their bikes would be totally different builds than mine. The Haibike is a picture of compromise.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by kfong » Dec 24, 2014 9:42 am

I've spent over 3K building my bike to where it is now, and it only goes 23mph max. Don't need or want it faster in the trails, and it allows me to pedal as well. When I first started I used low cost frames, but they could not take the abuse of trail riding. The better I became at riding, the more I was willing to spend to gain performance. Like any sport you become proficient at, good equipment makes a big difference in performance. When I moved over to the high end Fox shocks, it left nothing but a big smile on my face and boosted my riding level. I would love to own the Haibike if it performed better than my current setup. I've always been big on getting good equipment that won't hold back your performance. Learned that the hard way, staying with low performing ski boots when I was younger. Would of been a lot better skier today, even though I ski at an advance level. I'm at the point now that I'm looking at a better frame, since you start noticing the differences in riding geometries.

In reality, all depends on what you plan to do with the bike. If it's only for commuting then performance makes no difference. I have a utility bike that I use that is plain Jane, ugly and gets unnoticed. Perfect for getting groceries, and leaving lightly locked. I could never take my trail bike for such a purpose, or waste it for such uses.

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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by maxwell92036 » Dec 24, 2014 12:12 pm

amberwolf wrote:
maxwell92036 wrote:The problem with "performance" is that it puts you on the wrong side of the law. Want to build a powerful "e-bike" then unless you don't use it on the public roads it is illegal.
You might be careful with broad statements like that; "illegal" depends on where you are.

Here in AZ it is completely legal as long as you operate it under 20MPH.

To me when you start getting much over 1000 watts on a bicycle it stops becoming a bicycle because the motor overwhelms the need for pedal assist.
And what of those that need to haul heavy loads uphill, and/or be able to accelerate quickly in traffic with those loads, so as not to be run over by cars behind them at a traffic light? (or those incapable of pedalling usefully for whatever reason?)

Just because a vehicle has a lot of power doesn't mean it has to be used for speed. Just like any other vehicle, it's entirely up to the operator how the vehicle is used.

OK let's define legal. In the US from my understanding it is 750 watts and 20MPH with throttle and I guess up to 28MPH with pedal assist. In regards to being able to keep up with traffic that has never been the purpose of a bicycle or in my opinion an e-bike. If I want to accelerate with the cars and not get "run over" then I might as well get an electric motorcycle. I think trying to keep up with traffic on an ebike fabricated to go 50 MPH is a heck of a lot more dangerous and certainly well beyond the bounds of legal at least here in the states. I know Europe has much stricter rules hence their e-bikes not being very powerful but probably more sophisticated. I am surprised that Arizona has different laws in regards to e-bike power restrictions.
I also see lots of examples of cargo bikes hauling heavy loads with under 1000 watt motors. Sure you go slower but with heavy loads that is probably a good thing.
It seems a lot of forum members dislike the "lycra" crowd. Well give it a chance sometime. Riding a high quality bike (either road or mountain) with comfortable gear that you can ride in all day with is quite an experience. I did the Tour Divide mountain bike race carrying all my own gear in 28 days over 2800 miles with over 200,000 feet of climbing without an electric motor. I like e-bikes because I see them as a replacement for the car, commuting, shopping or getting me and my bike to the trailhead for a non motorized ride. And it is nice to see some members understand what a quality bike can bring to the equation when building up an e-bike from scratch.
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by maxwell92036 » Dec 24, 2014 12:19 pm

Here is a good list of what the different states allow regarding speed, horsepower (or displacement) and licensing requirements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_b ... ws#Arizona
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Re: Haibike crazy price

Post by EVTodd » Dec 24, 2014 12:24 pm

Well, I have to admit I'm surprised by how many people on here don't think $5,000 for that bike is outrageous. I get liking expensive bikes with good components, I get having very restrictive laws in your country and that this is a good compromise bike. I just don't see THIS bike being worth that much. Seems to me like you could buy a very high end bike of your choice and slap a geared hub motor on it for a lot less money. And yes, I understand that the Bosch climbs hills like a goat. Just seems like such limited market for something that specific. I suppose limited sales are one reason they need to get that much money out of it.

I'm sure some won't like this comment either but I agree with a lot of the ebike laws. On a normal bike I think 25 mph or so should be the limit. It is a bike after all. I just think the wattage limits should be a lot higher. For the times I need to go faster I have a Kymco maxi scooter that I got for about 4x cheaper than the Haibike. Again, apples to oranges but just a little perspective.

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