High power RC motor and drive unit production

[deecanio]

My drive is being designed with David's motor in mind. However, David is also designing his motor with my drive in mind. So, I gave him the screw spacing I would like and shaft length.

The drive will work with a number of readily available RC motors.

The only "Perfect" RC motor for this that is currently available would be the Plettenberg. But at $1,100 who really wants to buy one (other than those of us who are insane and really impatient for the best)?

I wish this stuff was easier to adapt to bike use. But, we are close, very close. The ideal setup would be an Astro Flight twist throttle, running a Castle SHV200 ESC, into a motor like David is making, with a silent reduction drive.

My recumbent is close to my ideal. Heck, if I could pull 160 to 180 amps through my HV110, I would be happy as a pig in slop! The "Perfect" system can be setup right now. The problem is price. There are a couple $1,000+ ESCs that work for this, and a couple $1,000+ motors. But, the ideal setup should be available to the average Joe. I am thinking as long as you can setup a 4,000 watt drive for $1,000 (motor, ESC, and reduction), that is ideal.

Anyway, I am doing some programming on the drive unit today.

I highly doubt there will be much R&D needed with the reduction unit. I have already learned what I need to know with my recumbent. I am, essentially, using the same rough drive setup in a very compact, variable layout structure. But, all the components have proven themselves. I have 600 miles on my recumbent so far.

Matt

Matt

Hi Matt,

well i am insane and really impatient for the best
i think i will take the plunge with a pletty and an svh200 (are they out yet??) with one of your new boxes.
did you have the terminator? specs? i know you have posted all this info but i'll have to wade through to find it.
will the pletty drop straight into the new box? that would be cool then i could just work out what gearing i need and go with 25chain and sprockets?
i think you run at 48v on that which i could do, if i reconfig my pack from 66v 6.6ah to 48v 8.8ah that would be fine for me.


Voicecoils,

i think (dont flame me if im wrong) that my 123's will do 80amps for 1s and then another 80 for every paralell string ?
does that sound right?
Anyway i know they kick ass and certainly my pack wont let me down for supplying power.
If i folow Matts lead i would be running 48v (or whatever the 123 equivalant is) so i guess that would make my pack 4p allowing me to draw silly amps, being as the svh200 is 200 amps? i will be fine to supply anything i put on really
mmmmmm, pletty and svh200 could be the ticket, i have the patience to wait for Matts second box but i doubt i have the patience to wait for davids motor.
damn this ebike lark, i cant think about anything but drive systems night and day !!!!!

Cheers,


D

[CNCAddict]

The SHV250 will be available soon for those who pre-ordered them. I was told they would only be making enough to fill current orders, so if you really want 85V and 250A, you might want to call them up and get on the list.

[deecanio]

Hi CNC,

Thanks for the heads up - up looking at the plettys now when i should be working lol
i guess i'll work out max power rqd and go from there.
ok time to start looking to buy i'll post in my thread proposed setup and hopefully all the guys will holla if im making a big mistake

Cheers,

D

[MitchJi]

Hi,

What's supposed to be functionally different with the new outrunner motor being designed and the existing RC motors?...

A few things;

#1 HUGE shaft. The internal shaft diameter is huge on this motor (I believe 15mm). The output portion of the shaft will probably be 12mm.

#2 Far better efficiency. RC planes and helis ahve alot of airflow available. So, effiency is not a big deal. But, we want the best efficiency possible. This new motor will have thin laminations and be taylor made for our application. That (among other factors) will give better efficiency.

#3 Super beefy bearings to handle the high shaft side loading a belt drive will have.

#4 Ability to handle FAR higher voltage than typical RC motors.

My Plettenberg maxes out at 50 volts. These new motors will handle 100 volts mor more!

Also, the can (bell) will be tapered to tolerate the shock loads imparted on it in bike use.

Matt

...the motor should work at any PWM you give it, and should produce a really clean BEMF signal unlike some of the other motors out there, so if you don't like the squealing just crank it up to 24khz.

Also, I plan on getting things as corrosion proof as possible on the motor. Electrically, brushless motors can run underwater. It's just the corrosion that's a problem.

Thats a pretty compelling list of features. Some of the features are compelling by themselves but all of them is great

I really like the 24khz PWM. Quiet is really nice/important.

Since Matt compared this motor to his Plettenberg I have a question. Three things that distinguish the Plettenberg are price, build quality and component quality. How is the X-era 60 going to compare with the Plettenberg on build and component quality?

Also any reason (doesn't require a oneway or freewheel) not to use 219 chain for the secondary reduction?

A hub motor is not in the cards right now.

When I saw the request for a hub motor drive for that motor I thought it was a bad idea.

That might have been correct but if someone could work out a high quality geared hub that used a motor similar to Davids I think the market would be huge. Why would anyone buy a Clyte 5 series if they could get a much more powerful and much lighter hub with massively better build quality?

I think in a large hub you could fit a two stage belt/chain drive similar to what Matt is building. SRAM already has a hub with dual RC (much smaller) motors:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4625&p=78344&hilit=sram#p78344

SRam Sparc

there are two version:
# the old one with gears (i have)
# and a newer version with belts (quieter)and higher voltage (i think still the same motors)

I think the sales volume would far exceed any chain drive option and I think both John and David would both like a popular product.

[johnrobholmes]

The issues with the hub motor design is space and total gear reduction available. If you want more power in a lighter package, you have to use more gear reduction. Unless somebody can come out with a rugged and small two stage planetary that fits inside a hub shell, I just don't think we will see hub motors with power to weight ratio equal to a divorced power train.

[recumpence]

OK, lots of questions since I posted last!

Here is my perspective;

#1 A hub motor system would be (believe it or not) alot harder to engineer and manufacture. Though the market would be large. For my production capability, a hub motor is pretty much not doable.

#2 I just spoke with Castle Creations. The SHV200 is being released soon, however, the entire first production run is sold out. Second run is scheduled for 3 to 4 months from now. That stinks. But, I have found the HV110 to be fantastically stable if added capacitors are used on the input side. So, for anyone looking for up to 4,000 watts at 50 volts or less, an HV110 (with input caps added) is the most cost effective choice anyway. It is 1/3 the price of an SHV200. However, I am getting an SHV200 as soon as I can get my grubby hands on one.

#3 I absolutely LOVE my Plettenberg! The way I feel about my Plettenberg is the same way Jay Leno describes the McLaren F1;

"The F1 is the most incredible car ever built up to that point. It is light, fast, powerful, refined, FANTASTIC! The down side is the cost. The car is crazy expensive!"

That is the way I feel about my Plettenberg. I am absolutely in love with it! The motor is smooth, powerful, tractable, cool running, VERY high quality, and just plain sweet! The down side is............. gulp, $1,100!

I have a local guy who wants me to order one and setup a drive for him with it. So, it looks like I may be doing that for two people now.

#4 No reason why a 219 chain can not be used for final drive. I am not using it for the secondary on the reductions because it is not needed (.25 is perfect for that stage and will be taking far less load than the final drive) and 219 is just a bit too bulky to fit the reduction unit well. I see no reason why it could not be used for the final drive to the wheel, though. My mountain bike will be running #35 chain for higher torque handling, though.

Basically, both David and I are not operating with huge budgets. I am just working with play money. Also, this is not my main business. So, I cannot devote the enormounse resources to a hub motor or a turn-key E-bike system. There will still be a bit of fabrication (minor stuff) required for installation and what-not.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the future on this stuff. I think next summer will be exciting for the E-bike world!

Matt

[CNCAddict]

The quality of my motors is pretty good, it may not have quite the fit and finish of the Plett, but as for reliability in a dirty E-bike environment it will be way better since I'll use sealed bearings and plan on making it fairly corrosion proof. Also, while there may be no squeal from the PWM frequency, it'll probably groan a little during hard acceleration. But that will go away when up to speed.

[MitchJi]

Hi,

The quality of my motors is pretty good, it may not have quite the fit and finish of the Plett, but as for reliability in a dirty E-bike environment it will be way better since I'll use sealed bearings and plan on making it fairly corrosion proof. Also, while there may be no squeal from the PWM frequency, it'll probably groan a little during hard acceleration. But that will go away when up to speed.

Slightly less fit and finish but more reliable and less noisy sounds like a better choice before factoring in the price.

That is the way I feel about my Plettenberg. I am absolutely in love with it! The motor is smooth, powerful, tractable, cool running, VERY high quality, and just plain sweet! The down side is............. gulp, $1,100!

They don't have the Heli model listed but the price here is:
http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_pricelist.htm

Terminator 30-8 US$ 929.00

Thanks!

Mitch

[recumpence]

Yup, the heli version has an output shaft and an aluminum fan on the end of the bell. That motor is $1079. I actually bartered them down to $1000. Aparently they liked my project.

Matt

[etard]

Matt,
You guys seem to be working in the 4KW range, will this drive still be efficient at 1-3KW ? I plan on using the HV110 (gotta order that from Holmes) and maybe a Hacker 60 series setup. I want to stay in the 15 pound range, so battery weight is an issue.

Also, I ordered all the parts to make the servo tester throttle you posted in your recumbent build, is there anyway to wire in the signal from my magura throttle. I like how small yours is, but I think a proper throttle would be best for offroading.

[CNCAddict]

I can offer low rpm versions of the motor for people who want lower power. Even at 1000rpm the motor should still be able to push a bike pretty well, but then the motor would need to be derated to about 600W power. This motor's power output is pretty linear with RPM, double the RPM doubles the output power.

[lawsonuw]

I can offer low rpm versions of the motor for people who want lower power. Even at 1000rpm the motor should still be able to push a bike pretty well, but then the motor would need to be derated to about 600W power. This motor's power output is pretty linear with RPM, double the RPM doubles the output power.

What's the target motor weight? About 2lbs would be ideal

Lets see, 1,300rpm would let me hit my chain using a 5:1 belt and a 13T freewheel. (wish shimano made a 13T bmx freewheel) I use a 34T chainring on my cranks due to my Linear's dual drive, most other bikes use a larger chainring so could use a higher rpm or larger (quieter) freewheel. I could also hit my chain with 1,000rpm 5:1 and a quiet 16T freewheel. 600 watts at the chain would get me through the gears way faster than I could shift, and keep me over 10mph on most any hill.

Marty

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

#2 I just spoke with Castle Creations. The SHV200 is being released soon, however, the entire first production run is sold out. Second run is scheduled for 3 to 4 months from now. That stinks. But, I have found the HV110 to be fantastically stable if added capacitors are used on the input side. So, for anyone looking for up to 4,000 watts at 50 volts or less, an HV110 (with input caps added) is the most cost effective choice anyway. It is 1/3 the price of an SHV200. However, I am getting an SHV200 as soon as I can get my grubby hands on one.

Matt

Are there any functional differences between the SHV series and the HV series other than the input voltage?

In other words for a 50V or less system is there any advantage that you are aware of with the SHV series?

Terminator 30-8 US$ 929.00

Yup, the heli version has an output shaft and an aluminum fan on the end of the bell. That motor is $1079. I actually bartered them down to $1000. Aparently they liked my project.

Matt

Yikes Thats $150 for an output shaft and a fan

[recumpence]

Hi All,

Sorry I haven't been answering the questions in the last couple days.

OK, yes, I am still using my sprocket adaptor, not a disc brake hub yet.

The reason the Terminator is an extra $150 for a shaft and a fan is production nunmbers. There are far fewer helis of that weight than planes.

The SHV series controllers (especially the SHV200) have few more throttle input options inlcuding a simple 5k pot. They also have a crazy amount of software parameters that are user programmable. Very nice! However, if you keep things at 4kw or less (even touching 5kw at times) the HV110 works very well indeed! My advice is to add a couple 1000mf caps to the input, however. I blew a couple HV110s in the past. Once I went to the added caps, I have been fine since.

Matt

[Miles]

Haha, yeah I guess I'll officially be CNCaddict here and not Dave, lol. Anywho, I personally am going to stick a gates carbon 12mm on my bike to see how it goes. These belts are ridiculously strong, but I only have a reinforced plastic pulley right now borrowed from the ixi bike. It is designed for the poly chain belt, but I worry it will explode when I put over 100ftlbs of torque on it. Anyway, I got 3 8mm polychain pulleys for $125 with some haggling which isn't too bad. You can check them out here. http://www.ixibike.com/

Hi David,

Looks like the ixi uses components from the C-Drive system....
http://www.cycledrive.com/home.html

So, now we have a choice of 60t, 80t and 100t pulleys....

[CNCAddict]

That's awesome they're supplying the parts without haggling on the phone. I don't see the 100t pulley though. Only the 60 and 80, can you post a linky?

[Miles]

The 100t is from the Strida bike (http://www.strida.us/), it's not a C-Drive part, but it has the same BCD (104mm). There is also an earlier version of the pulley, which fits on a standard 18t sprocket.

I used it on my first build:

[MitchJi]

Hi David,

Looks like the ixi uses components from the C-Drive system....
http://www.cycledrive.com/home.html

So, now we have a choice of 60t, 80t and 100t pulleys....

Hi Miles,

They list two belt length's, 1200mm and 1280mm. Are compatible belts available in other length's?

Thanks!

Mitch

[Miles]

I should imagine they're just standard Gates PolyChain spec., so any 8M PolyChain (or even PowerGrip/HTD) belt could be used. The PolyChain belts now use carbon fibre reinforcement (as David said) and not the Kevlar listed on the C-Drive site (it's stronger and stretches less, but is a bit less forgiving....).

[CNCAddict]

Miles...I thought I would be the first to use that setup...aargh Anyhow, do you have a link to more info on your bike. I'm interested in the pulley adapter since I haven't yet designed this part. Oh, yeah it's for sure a standard Polychain 8mm tooth profile. The best prices on these belts is by far http://www.limct.com. You can get a ton of different lengths.

Edit: OK, here it is viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5313&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[Miles]

Miles...I thought I would be the first to use that setup...aargh

David,

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

[See, also: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7305]

[skydog]

There was Solar car out of MIT, very light weight maybe 250lbs. with batteries, etc.
One of the very cool things about it was the rear sprocket (it was a trike with 2 front wheels) that drove the rear wheel was also the rotor for the disc brake. I may have a photo of it somewhere. Nice weight and space reduction.

[CNCAddict]

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

My personal EV won't have any pedals. Just the belt going to the right side...I just want to make the setup pretty standard so I can use any top quality freewheel hub since I expect they won't last long with the huge amount of torque going to it. I've ordered most of the motor parts...and will begin carving up metal next week Still tweaking the stator and magnets....and I'm afraid this thing is gonna have HUGE cogging torque on the order of 1Nm. Prolly gonna make it a lowsy low speed EV motor. Everything I do to decrease cogging also screws up the motor performance. We'll see if that turns into a big problem, but I suspect it will be ok.

[Miles]

Ah, Ok.

The Mk III Strida pulley can be used with a standard 18t bike chain sprocket as its hub - it's not the greatest piece of engineering design I've seen, though - probably not up to your requirements.

I'm looking forward to seeing this motor...

[swbluto]

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

My personal EV won't have any pedals. Just the belt going to the right side...I just want to make the setup pretty standard so I can use any top quality freewheel hub since I expect they won't last long with the huge amount of torque going to it. I've ordered most of the motor parts...and will begin carving up metal next week Still tweaking the stator and magnets....and I'm afraid this thing is gonna have HUGE cogging torque on the order of 1Nm. Prolly gonna make it a lowsy low speed EV motor. Everything I do to decrease cogging also screws up the motor performance. We'll see if that turns into a big problem, but I suspect it will be ok.

Are you using any simulation software to greatly ease your efforts? I've seen some around, but I imagine they cost thousands given how specialized it is.