Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Feb 25, 2016 2:04 pm

JPLabs.......thanks. I only put a few miles on the original tires so I cant really remember how they performed. I new they would not work for me as I want a trail bike so they did not last long but I agree they look awesome! I bet they would be fine for cruising around and sand riding etc.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by tomjasz » Feb 25, 2016 11:13 pm

I just grabbed a set of these, $75 eBay. PANARACER Fat B Nimble 26 x 4.0" Fat Bike Tire // 60TPI // Wire Bead
What some dealers want for one.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 26, 2016 1:14 am

When its dry and dusty I run a 4.25 H Billie on the front and a 4.0 Fat B on the back. I run them tubeless at about 6 to 8 psi with no problems. They are not as good pumped up and run on the street as the Vee Mission 8s that were on the bike when delivered, but are far better on the sort of places I ride. Still the H Billie/Fat B combo is a lot better than the Bud and Nate I am using over the winter as far as rolling resistance! These are all the 120/125 tpi versions.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Feb 26, 2016 11:01 am

Hey Tomjazz, super deal on the tires you got there. Nice. I did spring for the non wire tire which is nice, not so much for the weight but they feel nice. Its crazy here in Canada these days as our dollar is devalued by a lot. That and the problems with shipping and uncertainties at the customs with duties etc and then some suppliers just don't ship to country locations like I am in so its getting harder and harder to get deals on stuff. Its a good thing I got a huge pile of old bike parts to rumage through but tires and somethings you just have to pay up for.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 21, 2016 10:24 am

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Ok, all my parts are ordered and in transit for converting over to the SA IGH. I will see if I can use my existing 12 gauge spokes by either shortening them and re rolling the threads or simply at lace up send the right side spokes to the left side of the rim and the left side spokes to the right side of the rim. This will give a more extreme angle to the spokes but it may let me use the existing spokes on my larger SA flanges.

I noticed from the spec sheet on the Sturmey Archer site that the chain line should be just about perfect to the new Luna Mini that is also in the mail. Running a 30 tooth up front and the 22 on the back is going to give me my 1:1 ratio in first gear or very close so I am really looking forward to getting this up and running.

I felt the re configured 4 speed cog set I have been using is a good ratio for these power levels but unless you have a super good quality rear derailleur things start to make noise back there once slop starts to work its way into the system. The price of a top notch deraileur and the chance of bending the 42 tooth rear cog again also there expense make this Sturmey Archer solution I think the way to go. Also for my needs 3 gears are more than enough.

In anticipation of the parts arriving I am starting to work on some kind of a chain tensioner. Pictured here is an old roller blade wheel that I put a wide slot in to keep the chain. These wheels are maybe a bit soft for the job but they will sure run quiet. I bought a set of roller blade skates for 2 bucks at the thrift store so that gives me 8 wheels at 25 cents a piece but not sure how they will stand up to the constant friction of the chain?

Has anyone tried the roller blade wheel for a home made chain tensioner? Did it last or fall apart? Also shown in the photo in white is an old chain keeper from an old DH bike I used to have and pretty sure this one will be the right piece to go with the only thing is I remember it being a bit noisy. The black plastic piece is an old mount for CA to handle bars that seems to clamp onto my chain stay in a solid way so this may be how I mount the idle wheel to my bike?

Also I am open to just buying a store bought solution if anyone has any suggestions.

Thanks Wayne

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by tomjasz » Mar 21, 2016 10:55 am

I went with this type same manufacturer. Stupid prices. Found a less expensive model but no replacement guides, it's discontinued version. That said the guide it lasting far longer than expected.
http://www.amazon.com/Bionicon-76401622 ... hain+guide
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by tomjasz » Mar 21, 2016 11:19 am

Found a replacement for mine as a backup. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RALEIGH-RSP-CHA ... SwzgRWxdCs

But still need something for my BikesDirect fatty... Motorizered bike have a lot of pulley available the look junky.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 21, 2016 11:50 am

Thanks Tomjazz, can you tell me how quiet something like that would be. Without a wheel spinning on a bearing I am thinking it may be a bit too noisy with all the friction?

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 22, 2016 10:29 am

I am posting this again in this thread as I did not get an answer to this question when posting in a different thread........

I have a question that I don't think has been addressed to date. We know the motor is not geared down enough for normal pedal cadence, assisting when the motor revs are nice and high. Currently the HD1000 I believe is geared down at a 20 to 1 ratio. So my question is - lets say you like to pedal a bit for exercise - or you are trying to squeeze the most mileage out of your pack so you slow down the revs on the motor so you can pedal assist but are we just wasting our pedal input because of the motor revs are being kept too low for effecency? For myself I will continue to lug the motor a bit for most of my riding because I like to pedal a bit and just ghost pedalling does not feel good, so to summarize let's say I realize I am getting low on AH out on the trail, maybe I am better not to even try to pedal at all and simply gear down so the motor is happy and forget about pedalling at all?

I guess I could do a simple seat of the pants test and go 2 kilometers with no pedal assist in a super low gear and read my consumed AH from my watt meter and do the same test with lugging the motor and also giving some pedaling to assist and then compare the watt meter readings after wards.

Has anyone done a similar test or have a feeling on this?

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 22, 2016 10:55 am

I have attempted to gear my hard tail so that it will climb any hill I find in the lowest gear and on PAS 1. At that motor RPM I can assist the electric motor over any ruts or berms during the climb, but it mostly runs on its own at about 5.5 to 6.4 mph. This is a BBSHD, and a 42granny/30t mighty mini with the basic Luna 30a programming. On its own the cadence is always a bit ahead of me, so to speak, but when we come to an obstacle, the motor RPM drops and my feet catch up with the crank. I then keep the pressure on and RPM up until we have traversed the stream bed or berm or whatever and the bike speeds up and I can no longer input torque to the crank at a reasonable cadence. If the hill is extremely steep long I'll go up to PAS 3 or 4 out of the 9 available. Vertical stair steps and the like, I do standing on the pedals and using full throttle!!!

Since Bafang has never actually had a Pedal Assist system, but rather a cruise control/auto-throttle, I have always assisted it, not vice versa. Just set a fairly fixed battery drain at PAS 1 and help it out whenever the RPM drops below a safe level, don't lug a BBSxx nor any other motor/engine! Change speed by changing gears and coast down hills. You will pass 99.99% of the lycras on the hills and you will maximize your range too.

The only change I intend to make to the Bafang programming is increasing the maximum RPM at each PAS setting to keep the power from cutting in and out as terrain changes cause the speed to surge at a constant power setting. I would rather the let speed exceed the RPM limit instead of the PAS pulling back power to hold a set maximum RPM setting which IMHO is what causes the surging felt on PAS.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 22, 2016 11:24 am

With my IGHs I use one of these as a chain tensioner: http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/33 ... Chain.html

I have horizontal dropouts so I used one of these to mount the tensioner: http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/33 ... ioner.html

If you have vertical dropouts this might work instead: http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/33 ... ersal.html

I like the Surly tensioner because the single roller is a lot cleaner with less to snag on the trail and it allows me to correct for poor chain lines.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 22, 2016 11:58 am

Thanks Woodland, I think the surly one is very nice. Do you know if it pushed the chain up towards the chain stay or down towards the ground. Many of these types of units are poorly designed in my opinion and push the chain towards the ground which I don't like.

Also thanks for your tips on effeciency and I agree with you. Glad to hear you have the super low gearing, I just dont like the bad chain line the mini to 42 will give so I am going with the mini to IGH and a 22 tooth but the 22 tooth gets reduced by 33% using first gear. I still wont be as low geared as you but maybe I will but a bigger tooth sproket on somehow down the road for the IGH

I am not sure if I fully explained my question a few posts ago, I realize it's not ideal to lug the motor but I am putting out there the question if you DO lower motor speed enough so you CAN add pedal assist (lets say its for a prolonged time and not just the odd slow down on the trail) is it a waste of time because the little pedal assist you are giving is wasted because of the motor being put into a too slow spin. If this IS the case, then pedal assist (except for the odd obstacle on the trail at super slow speeds) is just a waste of time as far as effeciency is concerned.

Sorry for the length and wordyness of my question but its been something that's been bugging me and I dont see anyone talking about this. Many talk about pedaling to help with range but with this motor it may be a waste of time? (except for starting out at a dead stop)

I would like to see some hard numbers on this so I will do a test this week sometime. Right now I have 6 stitches in my hand so riding is not so easy. :(

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 22, 2016 2:03 pm

The Surly comes with two springs so it can be used in either direction. I've got mine pushing up and guiding the chain on to the IGH sprocket. I want to be able to easily swap between the SA and the Nexus3 as well as the two BBSHD chainwheels, every combination having with a different chainline, of course! With the Surly I just do the parts swap, adjust the roller to the rear cogs offset and away we go. I can't recall when my two IGHs have had a chain come off...(well, I can, but it's not been since I added the surly) and my wife rides it too... :wink:

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 23, 2016 5:14 pm

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New IGH arrived the other day so I will chip away at taking apart the old wheel so I can figure out spoke lengths required. This 3 speed hub looks very sturdy. It will be nice to loose the deraileur so I hope this works well. If I can find a local supplier of spokes I should be back on the trail in a week or so.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 23, 2016 8:41 pm

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As luck would have it I may be able to use my old spokes for the new hub. My old spokes measure out to be 256 & 258mm. For this to work I lace the left spokes to the right side of the hub and the same crossing idea for the other side.

Sounds too good to be true! The screen shot attached shows the numbers :)

I hope to lace it up tomorrow.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 23, 2016 9:26 pm

My Nexus 3 laced into my BD rim using the same spokes with a different cross, just as predicted by Karl at electric-bikeblog, so sometimes the stars line up for us. My wheel builder suggested that my nipples were of the lowest quality and should be replaced...... :shock:

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 24, 2016 7:44 pm

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Wheel build went good today and the old spokes were salvaged. Thank you Grin for the great online spoke length calculator. This calculator made it easy to put in the numbers for placing the spooks like I did. Awesome! This is the first wheel I have built with the left spokes going to the right side of the rim. I feel it looks cool and it saved me some mooo la too using the old ones like this a swapping sides. You get a nice angle for dishing wheel but maybe too much of an angle for these thick spokes and nipples however with this method. The rim is a single wall with no eyelets so the harsh angles on the nipples are most likely not ideal but I will go with it. Also I went with my number #1 pulling spoke as an inbound spoke like normal, and then the third set of spokes being my first pushers where I initiate the three cross pattern, but you really have to bend these thick spokes to get them to cooperate with tucking it not only inbound on the third cross but then to top it off there is one more spoke to weave around after that because you are going to the other side of the rim. Not sure if this make sense but it was a bit of a head scratcher for sure.

In the photo you can see the axle flats on the hub measuring at under 8mm. Bummer! I will need to get creative and slide some 1 mill stock on either side of the axle flats, I figure this is needed to help the axle from spinning in the drop outs because of the bad fit. I see from the sturmey site there are other washers available that will help putting the washer TAB closer to the axle so it can actually do some good. Maybe I will order some. Shown in the last photo is the washers with tabs that were supplied with the hub and these are useless to me with a normal 10mm vertical drop outs. Shown in the first photo is the anti rotation washer I think you want to order if you have 10mm dropouts and using this same hub. If I can get a set of these shipped for a decent price I will get some other wise I may just mickey mouse something up temporary to see how it goes.

Also be warned those that may buy this hub the flange width on the sturmey site is not like my hub dimensions. My numbers are shown in the screen shot in the post above. They were out by 5 mm or so if I remember right.


Anyways I have a good feeling about this conversion to the IGH. I will keep updating as I go. BY BY DERAILEUR, for now.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 28, 2016 10:44 pm

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Ok so hub is working awesome. I only did 5 miles or so but I am very happy with the shifting and the quiet. As it is, the gearing is too tall and I knew this using the 42 upfront and the 22 on the rear,even with shifting to first gear it is does not have the slow speed pull I want that the mini will give me . As the mini 30 tooth is in the mail I just wanted to try things out as they are. This gearing is actually real nice if you were cruising around the pavement and had no huge hills to climb but it still climbs OK for a low power bike. Once the mini arrives I will be back ready to hit the trail. A few hammer and screw driver moves to get my little chain tensioner working but I am happy with it. Most of the chain tensioners out there that are mounted from the deraileur tab, pull the chain down towards the ground which I do not like. This home made version pushes the chain up towards the stay which is what I feel is best. It was a simple mod to an old deraileur for this, I pulled both the big springs out of it and ground down some things that were in the way, moved the larger lower jockey pulley to the top of the old deraileur assembly and did away with the lower jockey wheel all together. With no high tension springs on the deraileur I can run just real light pressure with the two rubber bands so it runs with little friction and very quiet. Also a bonus is you can use your high gear limit screw to move the resting place of the jockey wheel inbound for line up to chain.

I will try to source out the anti rotation lock washer tomorrow but for now I just have shim stock in there to fill in the air space between axle and drop outs.

I think a saved some money with the old spokes being saved and also the home made chain tensioner so I am happy about that. You can see in the one photo how the bike can almost be used with out a chain tensioner but as chain wear starts to slacken my chain it will eventually need something so might as well do it now.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 29, 2016 10:02 am

waynebergman wrote:Thanks Woodland, I think the surly one is very nice. Do you know if it pushed the chain up towards the chain stay or down towards the ground. Many of these types of units are poorly designed in my opinion and push the chain towards the ground which I don't like.

Also thanks for your tips on effeciency and I agree with you. Glad to hear you have the super low gearing, I just dont like the bad chain line the mini to 42 will give so I am going with the mini to IGH and a 22 tooth but the 22 tooth gets reduced by 33% using first gear. I still wont be as low geared as you but maybe I will but a bigger tooth sproket on somehow down the road for the IGH

I am not sure if I fully explained my question a few posts ago, I realize it's not ideal to lug the motor but I am putting out there the question if you DO lower motor speed enough so you CAN add pedal assist (lets say its for a prolonged time and not just the odd slow down on the trail) is it a waste of time because the little pedal assist you are giving is wasted because of the motor being put into a too slow spin. If this IS the case, then pedal assist (except for the odd obstacle on the trail at super slow speeds) is just a waste of time as far as effeciency is concerned.

Sorry for the length and wordyness of my question but its been something that's been bugging me and I dont see anyone talking about this. Many talk about pedaling to help with range but with this motor it may be a waste of time? (except for starting out at a dead stop)

I would like to see some hard numbers on this so I will do a test this week sometime. Right now I have 6 stitches in my hand so riding is not so easy. :(
Wayne, regarding your question about what speed range to operate a BBSHD, perhaps you should ask Paul, Cellman@em3ev, who probably knows more than anyone else about the internal secrets of these drives. He's no fan of hotrodding, but he sure knows the OEM system.....

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 29, 2016 7:19 pm

Hey Woodland, yes cellman could be a good guy to ask but as I did not buy my gear from him I won't bother him. He is busy enough with customers etc. He has been a big help to me in the past when I bought stuff from him so I know he knows what he is talking about.

Also I think it will be easy enough to do a simple road test and figure this out for myself. It would be super simple with my old CA that I had running my Mac motors. You get of course and instant read out of your amp draw with this CA which you do not with the Bafang display and the little watt meters are too hard to read for me while riding.

So I am thinking if your speed does not change but just these two senarios change. One senario is motor spinning so fast you can not catch up with your pedals and the second is to slow down the motor speed so you can add pedal input and if you are carefull to be doing this on the same incline and the same speed for both cases you simply read your amp draw. The less amps pulled you have found the more effecient mode of moving your bike around in regards to AH used.


And again my curiosity here is more for extended range when you are out on the trail and really trying hard to conserve power for longer rides.

Also an update on todays ride. Did a real nice 15k ride on some rolling country pavement and the sturmey hub worked real nice. If I was a road rider I would go for this gearing I have right here actually. Chain line is not perfect with dished 22 tooth on the hub but I feel with the 30 tooth mini when it arrives it will be closer to a nice chain line.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 30, 2016 5:35 pm

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Back in biz now! The mini arrived in the mail today and it pairs really nice with the dished 22 tooth on the SA hub for both chain line and gearing for trail riding. The LUNA MINI 30 tooth looks to be awesome quality.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Mar 30, 2016 9:58 pm

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My solution for filling in the space between the axle flats and the drop out slots is to simply tie in a zip tie around the axle. This is just temporary until my anti rotation washers arrive but they these little washers are being shipped from the UK so who knows how long they will take to get here?

It seems with a mid drive there is no end to the tinkering required but worth it in the long run I figure. I think once the initial set up is done at these power levels you should then be able to have some trouble free fun. It's too early of course to comment on the reliability IHG, but now that I have a taste of how they work there is no going back. If this Sturmey hub does not stand up I will find one that does. I will keep my fingers crossed that the set up here gives me a couple thousand kilometers trouble free. If I get 2,000 k out of the drive train I will be super happy but I fully expect more. I have a new chain and new sprockets now at the 600 kilometer mark so I will report in from time to time with milage updates on how things hold out.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 31, 2016 11:35 am

Mid-drives and IGHs need to have the proper components much more than they need tuning: get the combination right and it will stay in tune forever. At least, that's been my experience with the Nexus 3 and the BBSHD and I would expect that a SA and a BBSHD would be the same. The cost of upgrading to the next level is huge, isn't a Rholoff in 170mm the only choice? My newest bike also has a 170mm dropout width and a 10 speed cassette so I am in a similar situation: keep the derailleur and deal with all the wear and maintenance issues, or switch to an IGH and deal with reduced gear choices, but never change a chain or sprocket again.

I will be watching for updated reports.

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Apr 14, 2016 7:11 pm

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My little anti rotation washers came in the mail but they are not really a very good solution for this axle not fitting tight to regular 10mm vertical drop out openings. I did my best choosing from the the long list of Sturmey solutions for problem but the one I choose shown in the first photo seemed like the only thing they had even close that would work. It must be designed for something else because its not going to work at all for my fitment problems.The top blue oval in the pic shows the little 10mm wide tab but its way too thin, I want it to be a 1/4" thick or so to any good and the red oval shows the lower tab and it's in the way of clearing the drop out slots.

I really don't know what others are doing but I found the thickness of two Canadian dimes (ten cent pieces) are the perfect shim material to wedge into place on either side of the axle flats. I ground 4 dimes down to the width of the drop out stock and epoxied them in place. A little hand filing to get a nice even tight fit and I was good.

Maybe I am missing something here but what have others done with these narrow axle flats so the axle fits snugly into 10mm mountain bike vertical drop outs?

Defacing my Canadian currency like this got me to thinking about other useful things a handy man could do with our close to worthless currency. I figure if the Canadian nickel and dime were Minted with holes in them then the handy man could use them for washers. :)

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Re: Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

Post by waynebergman » Apr 19, 2016 8:45 pm

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Bafangs new color display arrived today from Luna and its real nice. It will be great to have a good readout of real time watts being pulled. This will come in handy for finding the best effeciency when climbing. I have been wondering if its best for effeciency to keep slower motor revs so I can assist with pedals or forget pedals all together and just keep the revs up in a nice low gear? I am pretty sure the answer is going to be forget the pedals and rev it up but this display will give me real time comunication like my old version 3 ca so this will be nice.

I have a question if there are others that have this display up and running yet. I have set the battery voltage set to "UBE" which seems to be the setting for batteries that are over 48v but after that I dont see away to enter the 52 volt parameter. This new display readout is saying only 55.9 volts after a full charge and I know its really at 58.6 volts so not sure why this is?

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