New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 03, 2017 10:05 pm

Waynemarlow wrote:Just a response to a problem we had on the last ride. We were getting intermittent power on and off whilst riding, checked all the connectors etc and no problems. What it was, was the magnet on the wheel sensor had turned a 1/2 turn and was not close enough which was making contact sometimes only. Just re positioned it correctly and all was well.
That's strange: I've had all sorts of problems with the sensor and magnet, but never once has it caused any problem with the unit not working. However, I HAVE had an intermittent power on / of while riding problem that turned out to be a problem in the internal wiring of the battery, cured by dismantling it, disconnecting ALL the easily disconnected connections and then reassembling. You an read about that experience on this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3&start=50
Waynemarlow wrote:Done nearly 300 miles of hard off road with lots of climbing and lots of wrong gear use by the inexperienced and all is going well so far. Nice units and definitely better than the BBS series for making you feel as though you are having to cycle rather than just a boost.
Yes, that, "this is NOT a moped" feeling is exactly why I wanted - and now love - my two TSDZ2 equipped systems.
Waynemarlow wrote:One of our riders has opted for a small BBS01 as one of his knees is almost US and he is enjoying that
I got injured and so I bought a second unit, this time with throttle, and it does BOTH! :D If I ignore the throttle, I get all the boosting of pedaling just as normal, or, I can use the throttle to help get through those moments when I haven't got the muscle to get going on my own. In practice, as I have been healing, I started using only throttle because my knee was that bad, but it's helping to pedal some with range of motion and improve my strength and I've gradually been using less and less and less throttle. Today I rode three miles and only really used the throttle to get started, and a time or two to pick up speed I can't do without it. It's helping me heal while it's helping me get around and run my errands!
Waynemarlow wrote:one of riders is not as fit as the rest of us and uses the TDSZ2 as an equaliser, that also works well. Interesting to monitor his battery useage as at first he was using nearly all 6.0 a/h on the 2 hour ride, now hes only using half that as he gets fitter.
Yes, I was getting 2.02 miles per amp hour with pure throttle use. Today I got more than three miles per amp hour (3.0 miles using 0.98 ah), so, as with your rider, I can chart my improvement by watching how much battery consumption is taking place!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Nov 04, 2017 4:12 pm

itchyfoot42 wrote:Interested in the power cut off when the wheel magnet is out of position. I don't have a sensor cable at all and my TSDZ2 works fine and never have had a power cut out. Is there some other signal, other than speed, that is talking to the controller when you have a sensor cable present? I bought a cable from Germany that didn't match the connector on the TDSZ2. Wondering if I should try to find one that actually works. Other than missing out on an Odometer record, anyone know a reason I should have a working sensor cable?
Perhaps the unit checks to see if there's a sensor inline on power up, if not it ignores it, if it has then it expects to get some feedback of movement.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » Nov 06, 2017 8:58 pm

Waynemarlow postulated: "Perhaps the unit checks to see if there's a sensor inline on power up, if not it ignores it,"

If this is true then this would also bypass any controller checks to limit the speed of the trike. My 500W 15A TSDZ2 easily gets me to 20mph at level 3 boost but I'm also spinning out at that point. With different gearing I could easily exceed 30mph. Would be interesting if someone who has a trike geared to get 30, or above, at 90 cadence would disconnect their speed sensor and verify that the motor continues to provide boost at 30mph. I'm totally happy with 15-18 mph and will probably continue to seek a cable that will work, primarily to be able to record accumulated motor use.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 06, 2017 9:27 pm

Anyone know of a source for the TSDZ2 52 tooth Chain ring & I will be able to give you feedback on the motor performance on a trike.
Re-Cycle doesn't have any to sell. Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by toebs » Nov 07, 2017 8:53 am

Hi

First message on the board, but have been following on the side for some time.

I installed the TSDZ2 350W on my girlfriends commuter bike about 2 weeks ago. She commutes about 30km 5 days a week. So far she is very pleased with it.

I was actually going to order a small batch (10 pcs) of the TSDZ2 for friends and relatives here in Denmark. However after having read almost all of the (incredibbly many) posts in this thread, I am a little concerned about the reliability.

I have arranged to have the blue gear replaced with the metal version, but seems from forum like extra greease is also needed. If someone can help me understand where this extra grease is needed and how to apply along with a suited grease type, I would be very appreciative.

Also if you live in Europe, and want a TSDZ2 with metal, message me with details, and I can add an extra to my order

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07, 2017 10:34 am

Daytriker wrote:Anyone know of a source for the TSDZ2 52 tooth Chain ring & I will be able to give you feedback on the motor performance on a trike.
Re-Cycle doesn't have any to sell. Thanks.
The "original" factory installed gear is a 42T with about a 7mm offset to the inside. This offset reduces how far outboard the chainring is from the bike's centerline. This is important in helping achieve a good chainline - the straighter the better.

Unfortunately, a reasonably sustained effort at finding other offset gears this past summer - just a couple of months ago - led me to conclude that there are no other gears available in this size that have any offset. Rumor has it that there ARE offset gears for other bottom bracket mid-drive units, but our TSDZ2s have a 5 X 110 BCD and these other units have some other specification, and I wasn't looking for them. However, I did find that there are various other spiders to fit other bolt patterns.

This isn't to say you can't run a non-offset gear.

I have a 42T / 52T combination on both my TSDZ2 equipped bikes. In both cases, the 42T is run inboard and has the better chainline while the 52T is outboard. Do note, however, that to do this, I am running an adapter that I made myself that permits the original 42T offset gear to be mounted without disturbing its original position as, at least on my two units, you cannot move the 42T inboard any further than it already is without it coming into contact with the TSDZ2's motor casing (or, actually, the rubber cover that closes off the motor casing).

Both of these dual-chainring TSDZ2 equipped bikes have "build threads", and I made a separate thread to discuss gearing, and the adapter is also discussed there in more detail.

The first, the Raleigh replica (a Legran)... There are some good chainline images - try June 28, 2017 (page 2), and July 27 (page 4),

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=88943

The second, a Marin San Rafael Euro - how I got the front derailleur working starts on page 3 with a post dated October 30, 2017:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=89956

The gearing discussion, adapter details on page 1:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=88711

Note that with electrification, there's a lot less need for lower gears unless you have to ride with a dead battery on hilly terrain. Also note that one tends to avoid bad chainline front / rear choices... so I don't often go into the lowest gear in the rear while on the higher gear in front!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 07, 2017 11:10 am

Thanks RT111, my install is for a 20 inch rear wheel, recumbent trike so I believe the 52 tooth chain ring will allow for a more relaxed cadence. Tongsheng does offer several different tooth options so I think their offset should be accounted for IF you can find anyone that has them. If I am not mistaken with such a long span of chain running from the front chain ring back to the chain idler the offset should be less of a concern on a trike or am I missing something else?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07, 2017 11:20 am

toebs wrote:[...snip...] However after having read almost all of the (incredibbly many) posts in this thread, I am a little concerned about the reliability.

I have arranged to have the blue gear replaced with the metal version, but seems from forum like extra greease is also needed. If someone can help me understand where this extra grease is needed and how to apply along with a suited grease type, I would be very appreciative.
Hi toebs, welcome to the TSDZ2 world! :D

First, having read this entire thread, I can tell you that there are reports from people with thousands of miles on them and the only known significant failure reported is that there have been two reports of broken axles. This appears to be due to a machined-in notch to accept an axially limiting clip - we here in the USA call them an "e-clip" because they look like a stylized letter E. Both these reported failures took over a thousand miles to show up, and the riders did report heavy loads on their bikes (heavy riders). The second of these two reports said something about the new replacement axle not having this same design feature, so maybe that's a problem of the past. ... There's also a clutch bearing that has been identified as having a rating that's less than would be required for the heavier riders, and indeed, I looked up the bearing's engineering specifications and I can agree, it's under-rated for some of us (like me). The good news is that it's a standard bearing and shouldn't be too hard to source from a local bearing supplier (I have such a supplier within 3 miles of me), and, even if under-rated, failures seem to be quite rare.

Aside from those, the only other report of problems was extremely recent and as yet hasn't been backed up by a second report on what would to me seem like a common occurrence. It was reported about a week ago, if I recall correctly, that someone had problems with their unit getting water ingestion by being used in a very wet environment over an extended period. According to that report, the controller (in the motor assembly) apparently had a problem after a night in the rain, I think, so they swapped it out, and they had a problem with the user-interface which was allowed to dry out and afterward it worked OK. ... On the one hand, I can believe these folks, on the other, I'd expect a lot more reports of water-related issues if there were a serious flaw.

If you do in fact buy something like 10, please see if you can convince them to include ONE spare part I can't seem to get from them! They want to sell me a minimum order of 20, I think, of the rubber cover for the motor housing, but I only need ONE! Even if it is only $1.50 each (or something like that) it makes no sense to have 19 more dying a slow death on my shelf! ... If you wouldn't mind helping with that, send me a PM and I'll give you the part number and so forth.

Happy e-biking!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 07, 2017 11:31 am

Daytriker wrote:Thanks RT111, my install is for a 20 inch rear wheel, recumbent trike so I believe the 52 tooth chain ring will allow for a more relaxed cadence.
Yes, likely, and as longer-time experts than me have said - like Chalo here on ES - going with a larger chainring is a preferred, more efficient way to get ones gearings than going really small at the wheel.
Daytriker wrote:Tongsheng does offer several different tooth options so I think their offset should be accounted for IF you can find anyone that has them.
I feel 100% certain that's mistaken: Eyebisickel (sp?) is the only one who advertises them, and I got one, and it's NOT an offset gear, and not made or provided by Tongsheng. However, it is a steel gear and very fairly priced - steel is good here because it's a lot more durable than an alloy of aluminum.
Daytriker wrote:If I am not mistaken with such a long span of chain running from the front chain ring back to the chain idler the offset should be less of a concern on a trike or am I missing something else?
Yes, simple geometry tells us that if you lengthen the distance between two offset planes (each gear at the end points of the chain), the angular offset is reduced. Not only that, but the tiny but real "slop" in each link of the chain accumulates with each link, enabling the chain itself, with sufficient number of links, to accommodate the offset more easily by simply sliding over that tiny amount at each link. The engineering term for this is "tolerance stack-up" and usually it's a bad thing, but in this case, it's helpful! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 07, 2017 12:09 pm

Thanks very much for your most useful information. I went back & checked the site where I thought there were optional sizes of the chain rings & I should have read the information more carefully. The options are dual chain rings in either 52/42 or 34/42 combinations.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 11, 2017 3:07 pm

...Anybody got one or two dis-used TSDZ2 BRAKE levers with cut-out switch(es) / wire? ...I could order a new one but was thinking someone may have such a thing laying around, unlikely to see service...

TIA, RTIII

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Hi RT - I may have a set of levers but I will have to check to make sure the plugs are the same as they came on another kit.
\ Just checked, they are 2 pin & the TSDZ2 requires 3 pin connectors.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by magna99 » Nov 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Hey Daytriker....I'm running a dual front chainring setup on my TSDZ2 powered trike, and it works very nicely. I used regular 34T & 46T 9-speed rings with a chainring guard (bash guard) on the standard TS 110 BCD spider. Used 15mm long chainring bolts and chainguard spacers to mount all 3 to the spider. A standard Shimano SLX FD-M671 handles the shifting perfectly. I also use a dual chainring setup on another trike with a BBS02, again no problem except that for that installation I had to use a direct mount FD with a 100mm BB adapter to move the FD far enuff outward to shift correctly.

Chain line just isn't important on a trike. I've run all kinds of wild front setups, even a Mountain Tamer quad, over the years and have never had an issue with chain line.

Hope this helps you....if you want pictures, I can take some and email 'em to ya....

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Nov 11, 2017 7:50 pm

Thanks Magna 99, that helps a lot. I am often asked to do installs on different trikes & with some having front suspension, rear suspension, no suspension, factory rear racks, no rear racks or after market rear racks, 20 or 26 inch back wheels it can sometimes make for some varied combinations to get the right gearing & a balanced set up. Add into the mix varying strengths & desired speeds of the rider & my desire to do a good job can take some planning & fore thought. A good example is a recent install I did on a 20 inch Villager as far as I was concerned the cadence was way too fast for comfortable riding but the female rider thought it was perfect as we have a lot of hills around here. Being a bit of a speed freak myself, I may have found a better combination by installing the 42/52 chainring combination. We'll know in a couple of weeks when I report back.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14, 2017 1:58 am

Friends. I want to put a gas knob, but my motor controller has 6 pins. Please, who has a controller for 8 pins, make a photo of the controller macro, see where to solder the wire speed control. Or can there be an electrical circuit controller?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 14, 2017 2:33 am

As far as I have read here, if you have a TSDZ2 without a throttle, you can't add one (the controller won't respond to it). I think most of the posts about that are a few pages back, but you'll want to read thru the thread to see for sure.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14, 2017 3:36 am

I'm interested in trying how it works, for this I need to see the controller with throttle, where this signal comes.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 14, 2017 3:38 am

have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » Nov 14, 2017 11:45 am

Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bjorsa » Nov 14, 2017 3:26 pm

Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Atrihalov » Nov 15, 2017 6:44 am

Marin wrote:
Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
Can you show me where the instructions are?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Nov 15, 2017 8:36 am

bjorsa wrote:Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.
Could you explain a little more? Wouldn't the 48V controller read a full 36V battery as empty?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Marin » Nov 15, 2017 11:42 am

Atrihalov wrote:
Marin wrote:
Atrihalov wrote:have not put the motor on the bike yet, so I do not know how the assistant works, there is just a regulator on the hall sensor and as an option I want to install it, I have a controller 6 pins, I found the truth on it wire for a 6 volt headlight (turns on from the display) input for the speed regulator is not found. I noticed one thing if the display is held down by the "i" button, the motor starts to rotate.
Further back in this thread are links to manuals and instructions for the motor and kit, this may help,

It will explain that holding down the "i" button engages the 6 km walk mode for instance,
Can you show me where the instructions are?
go to the top of the thread page and put manual in the search this post box, it will come up with all references to manual in the thread, like there's one on page 7 and on page 43, probably more too.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Nov 15, 2017 11:50 am

bjorsa wrote:Just a quick report on the cadence thing:

I recently received a new motor on warranty, proceeded to modify it with a 36v motor combined with a 48v controller and it works like a charm. Max cadence is now just about perfect, unless you´re extremely fit and pushing it. I highly recommend this solution. A new controller only costs USD 35 @ recycles ebike or auto-ebike. A new motor (if you´re sitting with a 48 v motor) costs 72.
Please tell us more: WHY did you do this? What are / were your goals? What's the difference in results (your description on which way the cadence changed is quite UN-clear)... As it is, I'm scratching my head to understand why you tried to combine a nominally 36v motor with a 48v controller and what the results were.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 15, 2017 2:06 pm

Assuming the 36v and 48v motors both spin at the same RPM when powered by their respective voltages, then using a 36v motor on a 48v system would result in an RPM 1.333~ times faster than designed, which means a cadence that much faster.


Using a 48v motor on a 36v controller would result in an RPM / cadence 0.75 times slower than normal.


So if you cannot change gearing or sprockets for whatever reason, and need a faster cadence you could do the former, and a slower one you could do the latter.


It will also affect the acceleration/torque curves to do this (play with the motor simulator at http://ebikes.ca/simulator using any motor/controller there, and changing battery voltages and which winding of the motor, like a 3T vs a 4T, to see what I mean). How much depends on the controller and motor and riding situation.

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