Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

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tangentdave
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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by tangentdave » Sep 26, 2016 10:01 pm

So much silliness. Proof is on the racetrack. Bring whatever build you want, I'll bring my Zerode. Recumpence and I will be in front. Without a transmission, he'll beat me on the straight but I think my battery will outlast his ;)

Elementary, apologies. Saturday night I found the batch of parts that came from a new vendor were 0.002" out of spec on the most critical dimension in the gearbox. The unit you had was affected. Only two other customer units have carrier pieces that are bad, so anybody reading this don't email me in panic, I know who has the parts and am replacing them. That gearbox bench tested fine but apparently I need to test each of them harder. It probably knocked like a bastard under load. Your opinion is valuable and valid, you had a shit experience. Making a 40:1 single stage reduction that holds 14kRPM isn't the easiest thing, thanks everybody for not being too harsh while I iron out the manufacturing process cause when it works, oooooh shit it works well.

I don't have a cyclone kit, but I would think venting the gearbox isn't needed- the bearings seals won't hold gas pressure.


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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by jk1 » Sep 27, 2016 12:14 am

To be fair Alex was asking for evidence of a claim which is a valid point Or are we just supposed to believe peoples opinions without any evidence ?

It's a valid point regarding the longevity of high rpm drive systems , they have a few benefits but long life is not one that i would assume. You could of course beef up the drive train to have a lot of safety margin to extend the life but of course this would come with a weight penalty that cancels out the Astro low weight.

The race track doesn't prove anything either, anything can work for a short time, making something last a long time requires different engineering and high RPM is not one of them which is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of the ASTRO motor crank drive that it needs a drive system to handle this.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by aCeMadMod » Sep 27, 2016 12:41 am

i really never post too other users ,

whach out have the data you crying for , i have most parts i need, 5 ebikes cyclone vz ASTRO motor , and Timma2500 copy ebike but with Astro Flight 3220 and neugart pl 870 25.1

his gearbox blow up all the times , i found the best you can buy,

if this blow up .. Cyclone can't hold up too 3220 motor at all
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12687

weak points, in cranks, yes and no, i have ebike it some not cranks to drive my bike not lef side too ..

i fear the hub will fial first,

look here

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=72499

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by recumpence » Sep 27, 2016 6:39 am

jk1 wrote:To be fair Alex was asking for evidence of a claim which is a valid point Or are we just supposed to believe peoples opinions without any evidence ?

It's a valid point regarding the longevity of high rpm drive systems , they have a few benefits but long life is not one that i would assume. You could of course beef up the drive train to have a lot of safety margin to extend the life but of course this would come with a weight penalty that cancels out the Astro low weight.

The race track doesn't prove anything either, anything can work for a short time, making something last a long time requires different engineering and high RPM is not one of them which is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of the ASTRO motor crank drive that it needs a drive system to handle this.
What evidence? The ONLY evidence anyone has who posts on this forum is their word.

As far as high rpm is concerned, just because a motor can run 10,000 rpm does not mean it is running that speed all the time. Most often it would be running less than half that speed. If a few thousand rpm is garranteed to wear out a motor, why do car drivetrains last so long? Why do power saws, drills, and other electric motors systems last so long?

I have sold 200 drive systems and I have only sold one replacement belt and a couple controllers. Beyond that, about 6 years ago Astro (the previous owner) had a bad batch of motor epoxy and a couple guys running up pikes peak had temp issues. I have even sold drive systems to pedal cab companies who run these systems 16 hours per day, 7 days per week, for 18 months so far.

I have no axe to grind here. I ask not trying to sell anything. I am trying to correct misconceptions I am seeing from people who are new to this forum and new to some of the technology. I am sorry some people cannot handle reality. Keep telling me I am wrong, I will just keep on running my super powerful and super reliable systems.

For the newcomers, do a search on Astro drive systems on this forum. Read up on them before you post incorrect assumptions.

Again, what evidence would you like? How is it even possible to prove any of this aside from setting up a lab and inviting every single member of this forum?

Part of the problem is, the people asking for "proof" are new here. The members who have been here for 7 or 8 years know what I am saying is true because they lived through all of this developent and watched it first hand. This has all been established, therefore it is not argued by the long time members here. But, the newcomers have no clue about this. Ask Miles. Ask Fechter. Ask any of the non-hub forum members who have been here more than 5 years, then post your opinion.......

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by elementary » Sep 27, 2016 8:02 am

IMHO... Based on experiences with high RPM sensorless motors in RC helicopters compared to how well sensor motors like BBS-HD and Cyclones do in the woods.... it seems like comparing Apples and Oranges.

This post is about a light carbon bike, powerful battery backpack batteries and high torque motor riding in the woods... which for now seems to favor a motor with sensors

It is obvious that many of you have impressive ebike knowledge, but can someone build a motor with the huge torque of a Cyclone 3000w and is stealthy like a BBS-HD.... AND can be mount inside frame triangle?

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by m4k3r » Sep 27, 2016 1:05 pm

elementary wrote:can someone build a motor with the huge torque of a Cyclone 3000w and is stealthy like a BBS-HD.... AND can be mount inside frame triangle?
Image
tangentdave wrote:Saturday night I found the batch of parts that came from a new vendor were 0.002" out of spec on the most critical dimension in the gearbox. The unit you had was affected.
And just to add, Daves new tooth profile in his updated gearbox is MUCH (maybe 50% after the cycloidal gears settled in) quieter than his previous design. I know because I have the new one and my room mate has the previous version. In fact it was so quite I thought I put it back together incorrectly somehow.
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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by elementary » Sep 27, 2016 3:19 pm

That is good news...Dave is getting closer to ebike utopia... but what if someone makes a helical gearbox for a Cyclone 3000w

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by jk1 » Sep 27, 2016 7:39 pm

Unread postby elementary » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:19 am

That is good news...Dave is getting closer to ebike utopia... but what if someone makes a helical gearbox for a Cyclone 3000w
Machining tolerance would make only a minor difference, the motor gear design would have the major effect on noise. A high RPM astro motor with metal to metal gears will never be quiet compared to LOW RPM C3000w with plastic gears. This is a fundamental design issue, high RPM and metal to metal gears is what makes noise.

Helical gears are quieter but they are mainly used for metal on metal to reduce the noise and they have down sides in more side loads in the gearbox that it wasn't design for that also cause efficiency losses, metal on plastic is quieter so not sure if its even worth the effort, maybe some covers on the gearbox would suffice for the little noise that their is ?
on the C3000w thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... start=1425
no one has even mentioned any gearbox noise so maybe their is a problem with your gearbox or bearing to cause any noise on your C3000w ? from the feedback it seems that is probably the second quietest kit behind the BBSHD, but that's not comparing like for like as the C3000 is 3kw and the BBSHD in stock form is 1600w peak.

The Higher RPM and the higher load will cause more noise. Look how much noisier the BBSHD is at 72v and 3kw :
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=83450
So you need to compare the noise at the same power level and it seems at 3kw their is nothing quieter than the C3000w which would explain why you favor that !

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by cheekybloke » Sep 28, 2016 5:11 am

Could i just point out that Mr Shumaker aka recumpence is one of the most highly respected and clever guys on here, his word is without question .
I am looking at getting an astro kit for myself as they are truly awesome.
Darren The cheeky one.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by giblet » Sep 28, 2016 5:52 am

tangentdave wrote:So much silliness. Proof is on the racetrack. Bring whatever build you want, I'll bring my Zerode. Recumpence and I will be in front. Without a transmission, he'll beat me on the straight but I think my battery will outlast his ;)

Elementary, apologies. Saturday night I found the batch of parts that came from a new vendor were 0.002" out of spec on the most critical dimension in the gearbox. The unit you had was affected. Only two other customer units have carrier pieces that are bad, so anybody reading this don't email me in panic, I know who has the parts and am replacing them. That gearbox bench tested fine but apparently I need to test each of them harder. It probably knocked like a bastard under load. Your opinion is valuable and valid, you had a shit experience. Making a 40:1 single stage reduction that holds 14kRPM isn't the easiest thing, thanks everybody for not being too harsh while I iron out the manufacturing process cause when it works, oooooh shit it works well.

I don't have a cyclone kit, but I would think venting the gearbox isn't needed- the bearings seals won't hold gas pressure.


-dave

this would explain a lot. And yes the knocking was like a 'bastard'.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by izeman » Sep 28, 2016 7:17 am

cheekybloke wrote:... his word is without question ...
is he god? :)
as much as i respect him, but EVERY statement by everyone may be questioned. this is what an open forum is for.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by recumpence » Sep 28, 2016 8:49 am

izeman wrote:
cheekybloke wrote:... his word is without question ...
is he god? :)
as much as i respect him, but EVERY statement by everyone may be questioned. this is what an open forum is for.
Good looking, brilliant, and fantastic are good enough for me. I fall just a touch short of divine. :mrgreen:

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by cheekybloke » Sep 28, 2016 9:22 am

izeman wrote:
cheekybloke wrote:... his word is without question ...
is he god? :)
as much as i respect him, but EVERY statement by everyone may be questioned. this is what an open forum is for.
Which bit do you disagree with or were you just being pedantic?

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by izeman » Sep 28, 2016 12:06 pm

cheekybloke wrote:
izeman wrote:
cheekybloke wrote:... his word is without question ...
is he god? :)
as much as i respect him, but EVERY statement by everyone may be questioned. this is what an open forum is for.
Which bit do you disagree with or were you just being pedantic?
sure. pedantic. that's why ppl love me :) ok, that was sarcastic. what i was saying was, that it's reasonable for everyone to question everything here, and that there is nothing like absolut truth, most probably other views. i didn't comment on anything anyone said here, as i see valid points in both side's arguments.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by izeman » Sep 28, 2016 12:12 pm

recumpence wrote:Good looking, brilliant, and fantastic are good enough for me. I fall just a touch short of divine. :mrgreen
divine? it's you? you're alive?
Screenshot from 2016-09-28 19-10-27.png
i love your humor :) and yes. i adore you ... aehh your work ;)

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 06, 2016 11:03 pm

Thanks for posting your findings! I've had the Cyclone 3000 for about 6 months, and I absolutely love it! I don't find it noisy at all though, at least at 52V. Does the Mini sound like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asvE8AK7vQI&t=0m28s
elementary wrote:The Cyclone 3000w is NOT silent and stealthy like the BBS-HD, but it has a lot more torque... More torque than needed in the woods using 14s 16000Mahr HobbyKing Lipo 52v nomial 58.v8 charged. The highest the stock Cyclone 3000w controller pulled was 58.4 volts at 39.2 Amps.... without any modification to the shunts.

Bottomline, the BBS-HD Sniper will be ridden more because it is easier in the tight trails, but if a challenge is need the Cyclone 3000 can deliver.

Example, the fastest ride a 4" hardtail BBS-HD fattie with Bluto fork was a 8 mph average over set woods course, if pushed the BBS-HD Sniper full suspension can average about 9 - 10mph. Pushing the eCarbon full suspension with a Cyclone 3000w averaged 13 mph over the same course... something too dangerous to do again. The ride is something like an old Honda 125cc Ensenada motocross bike and a 72v Cyclone 3000w maybe impossible to ride in the woods. Never tried the Cyclone 1680w because it overheats, nor the Tangent for other reasons

Older pictures of the 3000 bracket and eCarbon
cyclone1sm.jpg
3000bracketsm.jpg

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 06, 2016 11:15 pm

The Cyclone 3000 motor weighs 9.2 lbs. The Cyclone Mini is about 3 lbs lighter. That is such a small benefit for such a huge loss in power handling and torque, and it is so much noisier.

Image
jk1 wrote:The C3000w motor has lots of benefits but low weight is not one of them !... The mini cyclone is a lot lighter and similar peak power of around 3kw...
Last edited by robocam on Oct 10, 2016 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 06, 2016 11:16 pm

What about the Cyclone 7500? It has no gear reduction, so no gear whine. Could you make the BBSHD fit with some custom work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KemJO_B2FGE
elementary wrote:Ok, open to suggestions

What is the right motor for this frame that can be ridden on mult-use trails without obnoxious noise? (It must fit inside the frame)

Considering...

The BBS-HD won't fit this frame.
The mini Cyclone is too loud and overheats.
The Tangent is too loud
Last edited by robocam on Oct 07, 2016 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 06, 2016 11:18 pm

What specific claims has he made that are untrue? I think the Cyclone 3000 is one of the better looking mid drives currently available (as long as you don't use the hose clamp).
recumpence wrote:Judging by your history here, you seem to be trying to convince people of things the rest of us already know to be untrue.

Also, I would hardly call the cyclone "Ebike eutopia". Putting that drive on a carbon bike is like putting lipstick on Pig.

Matt
Last edited by robocam on Oct 07, 2016 3:22 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 06, 2016 11:35 pm

This 20mm wide belt snapped when I sent 43A@52V through my 2015 GNG mid drive. I'm hesitant to trust the LightningRods' belt which is only 5mm wider. Dingus snapped a new belt on his LightningRods mid drive during a climb. With the Cyclone, you don't have to worry about a snapped belt or ever replacing a belt at all.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1217416

On the other hand, Gman is sucessfully putting 6500W through his Cyclone 3000 (90A@72V using the stock controller). He has racked up almost 3000 miles.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1223967

Problematic? Yes, but it's only because of the poorly designed motor bracket. A few dollars at your local hardware store and your Cyclone 3000 will be ready to give you thousands of miles of trouble-free service.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1209776

The Cyclone 3000 is one awesome value for $350 vs. a LightningRods setup at >$1000, and the beauty of the Cyclone system is that parts are very affordable and widely available (Cyclone Taiwan, Sick Bike Parts, Luna Cycle, eBay, etc.). The kicker is that while it's the cheapest mid drive available, it also outperforms virtually all other mid drives regardless of price.

Image
recumpence wrote:For sheer ruggedness at a low cost in a crank drive system, LightningRods is tough to beat. The Cyclone? Well, hmm, read up on them. They function, but they are very problematic.

Matt
Last edited by robocam on Oct 07, 2016 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by recumpence » Oct 07, 2016 6:54 am

robocam wrote:This 20mm wide belt snapped when I sent 43A@52V through my 2015 GNG mid drive. I'm hesitant to trust the LightningRods' belt which is only 5mm wider. Dingus snapped his LightningRods mid drive belt during a climb. With the Cyclone, you don't have to worry about a snapped belt or ever replacing a belt at all.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... &id=200312

On the other hand, Gman is sucessfully putting 6500W through his Cyclone 3000 (90A@72V using the stock controller). He has racked up almost 3000 miles.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1223967

Problematic? Yes, but it's only because of the poorly designed motor bracket. A few dollars at your local hardware store and your Cyclone 3000 will be ready to give you thousands of miles of trouble-free service.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1209776

The Cyclone 3000 is one awesome value for $350 vs. a LightningRods setup at >$1000, and the beauty of the Cyclone system is that parts are very affordable and widely available (Cyclone Taiwan, Sick Bike Parts, Luna Cycle, eBay, etc.). The kicker is that while it's the cheapest mid drive available, it also outperforms virtually all other mid drives regardless of price.

Image
recumpence wrote:For sheer ruggedness at a low cost in a crank drive system, LightningRods is tough to beat. The Cyclone? Well, hmm, read up on them. They function, but they are very problematic.

Matt

Not sure why people are breaking belts. I use a 25mm wide 5mm htd belt all the way up to three 3220s without a problem. I have never sold a replacement belt with some 200 DaVinci drives out there in use. The only thing I can think of is my drives are running higher rpm. The higher RPM reduces static stress on the belt. That being said, I have been able to skip the belt, but never break one even at over 40,000 watts.

You can also get that belt in a Kevlar cord that would never break in this application.
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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Oct 07, 2016 6:32 pm

recumpence wrote:
robocam wrote:This 20mm wide belt snapped when I sent 43A@52V through my 2015 GNG mid drive. I'm hesitant to trust the LightningRods' belt which is only 5mm wider. Dingus snapped his LightningRods mid drive belt during a climb. With the Cyclone, you don't have to worry about a snapped belt or ever replacing a belt at all.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... &id=200312

On the other hand, Gman is sucessfully putting 6500W through his Cyclone 3000 (90A@72V using the stock controller). He has racked up almost 3000 miles.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1223967

Problematic? Yes, but it's only because of the poorly designed motor bracket. A few dollars at your local hardware store and your Cyclone 3000 will be ready to give you thousands of miles of trouble-free service.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1209776

The Cyclone 3000 is one awesome value for $350 vs. a LightningRods setup at >$1000, and the beauty of the Cyclone system is that parts are very affordable and widely available (Cyclone Taiwan, Sick Bike Parts, Luna Cycle, eBay, etc.). The kicker is that while it's the cheapest mid drive available, it also outperforms virtually all other mid drives regardless of price.

Image
recumpence wrote:For sheer ruggedness at a low cost in a crank drive system, LightningRods is tough to beat. The Cyclone? Well, hmm, read up on them. They function, but they are very problematic.

Matt

Not sure why people are breaking belts. I use a 25mm wide 5mm htd belt all the way up to three 3220s without a problem. I have never sold a replacement belt with some 200 DaVinci drives out there in use. The only thing I can think of is my drives are running higher rpm. The higher RPM reduces static stress on the belt. That being said, I have been able to skip the belt, but never break one even at over 40,000 watts.

You can also get that belt in a Kevlar cord that would never break in this application.
Judging by the wear pattern on that belt, it looks like something was rubbing against it on the non-toothed side, possibly causing pre-mature wear? Look at white lettering where it is worn away in a parallel band all the way down the belt.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 07, 2016 6:45 pm

The 2015 GNG mid drive uses an idler pulley, which leaves the marks you're seeing. The GNG kit comes stock with a 21 amp controller, so it's not surprising that 43 amps would do this. The belt was relatively new, so it was torn simply due to the high tension.
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:Judging by the wear pattern on that belt, it looks like something was rubbing against it on the non-toothed side, possibly causing pre-mature wear? Look at white lettering where it is worn away in a parallel band all the way down the belt.
Last edited by robocam on Oct 07, 2016 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by robocam » Oct 07, 2016 7:40 pm

You're probably right. Those little motors probably don't produce as much torque as the ones in the GNG/LightningRod mid drives.

I just Googled the DaVinci to see what it was. Interesting. You should have it added to this list so that more people know about it.

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

BTW, when I click on "Read More" at the bottom, the links are dead. Just thought I'd let you know.

http://davincidrives.com/electric-drives/
recumpence wrote:Not sure why people are breaking belts. I use a 25mm wide 5mm htd belt all the way up to three 3220s without a problem. I have never sold a replacement belt with some 200 DaVinci drives out there in use. The only thing I can think of is my drives are running higher rpm. The higher RPM reduces static stress on the belt. That being said, I have been able to skip the belt, but never break one even at over 40,000 watts.

You can also get that belt in a Kevlar cord that would never break in this application.

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Re: Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Post by Megsy73 » Oct 10, 2016 6:02 pm

This project was intended to be the ultimate full suspension CARBON e-mountain bike build

Having built 15 ebikes over 5 years this ebike needed to be special and solve the ground clearance problems experienced with the Bafang Mid-Drives. The Tangent was tried, but that did not work out. When the Cyclone 3000 is installed in the light carbon frame, it may be close to eBike Utopia we all seek. The 3000 mounted with custom brackets inside the frame provides excellent ground clearance with significantly more power than a BBS-HD... but still a little noisy for shared public trails.
Elementary this is an interesting review, it's one of the first times i have seen one person try all the most popular mid drive kits: BBSHD, Tangent Astro, Mini cyclone 1680w and the new C3000w cyclone and since you have built 15 ebikes, your experience tells a lot. So after all that the best is the new C3000w cyclone ?

I just saw online some details of the new AFT C3000w kit, this would have to be the best C3000w kit ?
http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

It looks to have stronger mounting brackets, kelly sinewave controller, ceramic bearings and some other things to reduce the weight . It looks pretty good, high power, low noise and low weight...

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