Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 185
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 13, 2017 3:22 pm

No information was forthcoming directly from Sur-Ron regarding the motard version.
I requested information regarding pricing and complete wheel sets to go with my order of bikes but got totally ignored, but saying that I only received answers to probably a quarter of my questions over the 4 month process.
Now having received my order and being short changed on 2 10a chargers I seem to have dropped further down on the response list....👎

User avatar
scrambler
100 W
100 W
Posts: 236
Joined: Aug 10, 2015 7:23 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area (USA)

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Dec 13, 2017 3:24 pm

That is part of the problem with dealing with China...

Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 185
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 13, 2017 3:31 pm

I agree and must admit that it has been a very stressful process but now having received my order albeit 95% accurate I am so relieved.

I have to thank the other Es members who got in on the order ( Hyena, Juicemeup & Kalsteve) as they really didn’t want to send us an order of less than 10 bikes.

If I am to place another order I will be going to China to inspect prior to shipping but they expect me to order 20 bikes next time!

So far I have received a heap of interest and praise but less than 10 committed buyers...
Last edited by Aebrennan on Dec 13, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3334
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Dec 13, 2017 9:14 pm

Well hey you got the newer ones, better motor etc.
Last edited by macribs on Dec 14, 2017 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mr.electric
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 772
Joined: Jan 03, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by mr.electric » Dec 14, 2017 1:34 am

Luna cycle just announced Sur Ron availability in the USA.
-Fat Sand Bike with 9c and 29ah pack

-Giants mascot scooter

User avatar
scrambler
100 W
100 W
Posts: 236
Joined: Aug 10, 2015 7:23 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area (USA)

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Dec 14, 2017 1:35 pm

mr.electric wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 1:34 am
Luna cycle just announced Sur Ron availability in the USA.
As already mentioned by dirkdiggler in the previous page of this thread :)

User avatar
Hyena
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 6097
Joined: Aug 13, 2008 9:10 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Hyena » Dec 15, 2017 6:19 pm

Alrighty, so I've been testing my sample bike and I'm pleasantly surprised. Here's my somewhat comprehensive review:

At first the noise annoyed me, even when costing there's some sound from the front cog as there's obviously no freewheel. But then I'm used to the complete silence of a sinewave hub motor. On the road if feels like it could do with a tad more power. But these aren't legal anywhere to ride on the road so that hardly matters. On the trails they're pretty damn good and on the same single track where I ride my e-mtbs it was a blast. With the moto rims front and rear and the heavier duty fastace suspension I was plowing over some really rough terrain at speed, stuff that I couldn't have pulled off on my FUTR with 26" DH front end. I'm talking trails strewn with shoebox size rocks, and smashing straight over it. Likewise it climbed up the steepest nastiest terrains I could throw at it - stuff so steep and loose that when I had to step off I struggled to be able to walk up pushing it.

I slid it under a fence coming and going on a particular trail and both times it caused me to lose power. Turning the key on and off again fixed it, so I think it might have a tilt sensor in it ?

What would I do to improve it ?
The forks could do with being about 2"longer. I'm going to see how the geometry feels with a 26" front wheel, and if it's not whacky a 21" moto front wheel might make this aspect of it perfect, albeit at the expense of front suspension travel. As Aebrennan note to me when I picked the bike up the bars feel a bit low too. He flipped his stem around to raise them a bit but I think fitting motocross style riser bars with a brace would be appropriate.

Power wise this is already fitted with the revised motor and I DID have the case rather hot by the end of riding it like I stole it up big hills. It was not too hot to keep my hand on it but obviously it'd been working hard. But it never cut out or seemed too down on power beyond what I assume was voltage sag as it got down to 30% capacity. I reckon you'd have to be 100kg and flogging the bike up some hideous terrain to make it fail. I'm only 72kg but certainly showed it no mechanical sympathy. Overall the power level is pretty damn good as is for it's intended purpose and often on tight tracks I was only easing the throttle on. It has a normal and sport mode but on mtb type trails even normal is fine, with sport giving you extra poke to power hard out of corners or flick the tail in loose stuff. But to make it perfect I reckon bumping it from 60v to 72v and giving it another 20-30 amps would make it be perfect. It doesn't have enough power to pop the front wheel on demand but that could be seen as a good thing too as you can mash the throttle in most situation without fear of it hurling you off (something I can't do on my 10kw alpha). That said I did have it in a 2 wheel slide a few times when coming into corners too how and then powering out at full throttle 8)
The speedo on the bike is out a little bit but not dramatically. At top speed it's out by about 5km/hr , reading 73km/hr when GPS showed 68. Realistically for the most part top speed is around 60-65km/hr which for trails I found fine. For where I was riding I wouldn't want to be going any faster and even at 65 I felt the brakes were only borderline good enough to cope with a sudden emergency braking situation - which I came across twice in my ride with trees down across the trail coming around a corner and over a crest. A few extra teeth on the rear sprocket would probably sort it without any futher changes to the electrics, though obviously at the expense of top end. I think the top end now it good and I wouldn't want to sacrifice it too much, hence why a few extra volts with a larger rear sprocket would make it ideal.

The brakes are supposedly quad piston, but the fronts could do with being stronger IMO. Considering this isn't even pretending to be a bicycle I'd actually go with pit bike brakes on the front end. At the expense of a few hundred grams extra they'd be much heavier duty, and would be cheaper for larger calipers and rotors too. I feel like I'm going to chew through these pads in no time. Alternatively, regen would be good.
They have ebrakes levers that just diasble the throttle currently which is only of use to total noobs. The front one is really sensitive and a number of times I had power cut and thought I'd broken something, but it turned out it was just the hall being sensitive and pushing the brake levers deliberately back past where they usually sit let me use the throttle again. I might actually remove these as I actually like to power on against the brakes sometimes in really technical steep terrain or when walking the bike up tricky place or on the back wheel (like a hill start against the hand brake)

I'll post some more thoughts as I do more testing. That may sound like a bit of criticism but I've been building ebikes for years so I guess I'm holding it to a high standard. And for a new company, especially Chinese, they've actually done an amazing job. Out of the box most people would probably not fault them.
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 185
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 15, 2017 9:28 pm

Great to hear I’m not the only one who thinks this is a great platform to work with.
Thanks again for getting in on the order from the start hopefully this will help us for potential future dealings.
I have a range of people coming to test over the weekend so I will have more variety of feedback to pass on too.
Juicemeup is coming to collect his bike now so there will be another opinion shared soon.
I have received a range of requests for videos and information, I will be able to get more done from next weekend.

User avatar
Hyena
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 6097
Joined: Aug 13, 2008 9:10 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Hyena » Dec 16, 2017 5:54 pm

Here's an unboxing and assembly video.
More to follow :)

www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
skeetab5780
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2043
Joined: Jun 15, 2009 10:58 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 16, 2017 6:39 pm

Hyena as always that was a excellent review and unboxing video thank you very much for the detailed information. I think you may be on to something raise voltage change sprocket remove tilt sensor. Either way i know i would have a blast riding one of these!

bionicon
100 W
100 W
Posts: 202
Joined: Jun 28, 2015 2:29 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by bionicon » Dec 17, 2017 1:57 pm

Does anybody know what "new motor" is used? Is it still a golden motor?

Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 185
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 17, 2017 2:24 pm

Custom built by golden motor using different cases to their Hpm3000 motor.
I already inquired to source the 72v water cooled as a direct replacement.

jk1
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Feb 27, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by jk1 » Dec 17, 2017 8:31 pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China
Report this post
Quote
Post by gridlok » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 am

Test rode this ebike for several days a couple weeks ago. Finally got around to posting a review. https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/12/1 ... dirt-bike/ if you have any questions PM me directly. Thanks.
Interesting review this part here:
[/The rear wheel is driven by a massive chain that looks unlikely to break even at the claimed 6000 Watts peak power that the motor puts out. There was a lot of noise from the motor and drive train on the bike I test drove, but I hear that the actual production motor is much quieter. I would say that the amount of noise is about equal to a 3000W Cyclone or a 6000W Tangent Ascent, although the tone of the noise is much lower than either of these two making it more agreeable to my ears. The newer production bike is about 1/2 as loud as the version that I rode. From what I understand on the ES forums this bike puts out about 3350W of power nominally which feels about right, check out the dyno graph from motomoto at the end of the article. Keep in mind that 3000W on a mid drive is going to feel a lot more torquey than a 3000W hub motor. This bike feels very similar to a 3000W Cyclone running at 72v like Curt’s early edition Rhinoquote]

I think this is one of the big downsides of a single speed direct to the rear wheel mid drive that causes this noise, also since their is no freewheel on the motor. Compared to the say the c3000w you mentioned the C3000w has a freewheel so the chain is not always spinning only under load. But also more importantly since the c3000w motor has a gearbox the chain speed is a LOT slower then the chain direct to the rear wheel speed. So this would explain to me why this Surron is actually louder than a C3000w ? the c3000w seems to be as quiet as a BBSHD and no one has complained about its noise Sphere ? and not in the same class as the noisy 1680w cyclone or Tangent that people clal buzz bees on here for a reason lol

And also about your comment that the performance and acceleration is similar to a C3000w at 72v. That's a shock to me ! I guess this is the other factor people should be aware of that as soon as you drive direct to the rear wheel then you loose the acceleration benefits of multiple gear mid drives like the C3000w through the gears. So for me its kind of a shock that this bike uses the Gm3000 weight is 8 kg without a gearbox, whereas the c3000w cyclone uses a 4kg motor and gearbox and has the same acceleration due to the gear multiplication benefits !

jk1
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Feb 27, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by jk1 » Dec 17, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China
Report this post
Quote
Post by gridlok » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 am

Test rode this ebike for several days a couple weeks ago. Finally got around to posting a review. https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/12/1 ... dirt-bike/ if you have any questions PM me directly. Thanks

The rear wheel is driven by a massive chain that looks unlikely to break even at the claimed 6000 Watts peak power that the motor puts out. There was a lot of noise from the motor and drive train on the bike I test drove, but I hear that the actual production motor is much quieter. I would say that the amount of noise is about equal to a 3000W Cyclone or a 6000W Tangent Ascent, although the tone of the noise is much lower than either of these two making it more agreeable to my ears. The newer production bike is about 1/2 as loud as the version that I rode. From what I understand on the ES forums this bike puts out about 3350W of power nominally which feels about right, check out the dyno graph from motomoto at the end of the article. Keep in mind that 3000W on a mid drive is going to feel a lot more torquey than a 3000W hub motor. This bike feels very similar to a 3000W Cyclone running at 72v like Curt’s early edition Rhinoquote
I think this is one of the big downsides of a single speed direct to the rear wheel mid drive that causes this noise, also since their is no freewheel on the motor. Compared to the say the c3000w you mentioned the C3000w has a freewheel so the chain is not always spinning only under load. But also more importantly since the c3000w motor has a gearbox the chain speed is a LOT slower then the chain direct to the rear wheel speed and this would explain the high chain noise. So this would explain to me why this Surron is so loud and annoying sound , ive never heard anyone complain about C3000w noise ? the c3000w seems to be as quiet as a BBSHD and no one and not in the same noise class as the noisier 1680w cyclone or Tangent that people call buzz bees on here for a reason lol

And also about your comment that the performance and acceleration is similar to a C3000w at 72v. That's a shock to me ! As it uses a motor twice the size Gm3000 weight is 8 kg without a gearbox, whereas the c3000w cyclone uses a 4kg motor and gearbox . I guess this is the other factor people should be aware of that as soon as you drive direct to the rear wheel then you loose the acceleration benefits of multiple gear mid drives like the C3000w through the gears and has the same acceleration due to the gear multiplication benefits !

jk1
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Feb 27, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by jk1 » Dec 17, 2017 8:57 pm

If you get on the bike and peg it at 40mph you are not going to be able to get that much range. I would estimate that you can get about 20 miles in the city (under 30 mph) and 13 miles of range on the highway at 40mph, maybe less. With a 1920Wh pack this bike has about 1/2 the capacity of the Zero FX ZF3.6 modular bike.
Also this is a concern for me : 20 miles in the city (under 30 mph) from a 1920wh battery. that means a consumption of 90 wh/mile (59 wh/km) at under 30mph. That is quite high isn't it ? what do stealth bikes and other hub motor bikes get at these speeds ?

With people on mid drives through the gears I am pretty sure 90 wh/mile (59 wh/km) at under 30mph is quite high ? any feedback from cyclone, tangent or BBSHD through the gears at 30mph ?

As that would be the others disadvantage of lack of gears, i.e not only a motor twice the same for the same acceleration as mentioned above but the knock on effect is you need a battery and controller twice the size and cost as well ? as the motor is not used as efficiently and is always under full load Vs through the gears motor operates more often at high RPM high efficient point.. and also gets too cool down between gear changes unlike direct to rear wheel full load all the time. That would probably explain how people overdrive C3000w to 6kw without overheating it as its pulsed, I bet if u ran it direct to the rear wheel like the Surn ron then you could only get the nameplate 3kw continuous as the peak rating.

Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 185
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am
Location: Sydney New South Wales
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 17, 2017 11:03 pm

I have actually seen 35kms on the 48v 25ah pack and 47kms on the 60v 32ah pack.
Both packs had near 10% remaining.
I rode off road trails as shown in my videos.

https://youtu.be/nGpScquIH1M

Ohbse
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 763
Joined: Dec 26, 2013 5:15 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Ohbse » Dec 17, 2017 11:22 pm

On my bike around town I have only once managed to get a trip above 35wh/km. That's riding as fast as possible on road, 70-85km/h, full acceleration (~12kw) where ever possible. It would be a molten pile of slag if it actually *averaged* 65 wh/km. The city range will be substantially more than this. With non-offroad tires I would count on 50km of range unless the motor/controller combo is horrendously inefficient.

User avatar
FlightService
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 38
Joined: Jun 27, 2017 5:26 am
Location: Washington D.C. Metro area

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by FlightService » Dec 18, 2017 12:47 pm

dirkdiggler wrote:
Dec 13, 2017 12:26 pm
They do have a supermoto version. I don't see it listed on Luna though.
That's what I thought.

A neat "package" would be have a "upgrade box" to where you could buy one version, but it comes with an extra set of wheels and what not to make it a quick flip from street/urban to mountain bike.

If this bike stays priced low (sub $4k) and the quality is what everyone says it is, this will be the hot-rod ticket.

Now how long till Luna makes their pedal adaptor kit available....
Engineer: (n) en·gi·neer \ˌen-jə-ˈnir\ -Someone who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. (See also: wizard, magician, miracle worker)

User avatar
madin88
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2581
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by madin88 » Dec 18, 2017 1:16 pm

FlightService wrote:
Dec 18, 2017 12:47 pm
Now how long till Luna makes their pedal adaptor kit available....
IMO it doesn't need a kit with pedals, it needs street approval for 45kmh as moped (as 50cc competitor), and another version as motorcycle with a better braking system (as 125cc competitor with no speed limit).

User avatar
macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3334
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Dec 18, 2017 1:19 pm

madin88 wrote:
Dec 18, 2017 1:16 pm
FlightService wrote:
Dec 18, 2017 12:47 pm
Now how long till Luna makes their pedal adaptor kit available....
IMO it doesn't need a kit with pedals, it needs street approval for 45kmh as moped (as 50cc competitor), and another version as motorcycle with a better braking system (as 125cc competitor with no speed limit).
A eurpean A1 would be freakin awesome. But from what I hear A1 plates are even harder/more costly to get then plates for 45 km/h. I think Artur will do a street legal 45 km/h version, or so he said a while back. But even then you have the speed limit issues. A1 would be EU perfect match.

Until that happens a pedal kit solves the most of your worries.

User avatar
Alex Imreh
100 W
100 W
Posts: 101
Joined: May 20, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: Cluj-Napoca, Romania
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 21, 2017 6:45 am

Maybe a few e-bike builders could make a cooperative financing, to design and produce a frame similar with this, but for a speed pedalec with bicycle seat & pedals, 45km/h. 1# no more need of EU homologation, plates. 2# with an open arhitecture we could use "standard middrives" like BBSHD or Tongsheng and standard bicycle components. 3# 2-2.5kwh batteries + such engines + pedaling could be enough to make real offroad trails, over 100km, or road trips above 200km.
There are soo many clever people on this forum, with a lot of experience and many nice prototypes. If some could unite they could have a chance against all the big companies and against "big brother" (from China). I quote an austrian e-bike builder "This would be the best and only possibility to survive before the big companies come and make their own!" First step could be - a few shareholders pay for design and copyright. In second phase for example the guys who are producing the "Vector" frames could produce this design.
SP.jpg
SP.jpg (78.27 KiB) Viewed 797 times
s1.PNG

WoodlandHills
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 744
Joined: Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm
Location: Templeton Gap, CA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by WoodlandHills » Dec 21, 2017 11:22 am

If one wanted to get ebikes banned from any and all off-road trails, just put pedals on this and ride it on bicycle trails. The only way to possibly justify a pedal version is to simply admit that you are a selfish a-hole who feels that laws and regulations are for somebody else and who does not care a bit about the future of eMTBs.

THIS IS AN ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE. THIS IS NOT A BICYCLE!

User avatar
madin88
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2581
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by madin88 » Dec 21, 2017 1:37 pm

Alex Imreh wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 6:45 am
Maybe a few e-bike builders could make a cooperative financing, to design and produce a frame similar with this, but for a speed pedalec with bicycle seat & pedals, 45km/h. 1# no more need of EU homologation, plates. 2# with an open arhitecture we could use "standard middrives" like BBSHD or Tongsheng and standard bicycle components. 3# 2-2.5kwh batteries + such engines + pedaling could be enough to make real offroad trails, over 100km, or road trips above 200km.
There are enough options. You can build up a Qulbix 76R with a BBSHD if you like, or buy that carbon bike with the torque sensing Bafang middrive from Luna.
The problem as already mentioned it will not be legal in most countries.
This bike from SurRon is a moped for replacing 50cc gassers in the future, and in terms of power and speed it even could be seen as a replacement for the 125cc gassers.
It's no pedelec.

User avatar
Hyena
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 6097
Joined: Aug 13, 2008 9:10 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Hyena » Dec 21, 2017 3:11 pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:22 am
If one wanted to get ebikes banned from any and all off-road trails, just put pedals on this and ride it on bicycle trails. The only way to possibly justify a pedal version is to simply admit that you are a selfish a-hole who feels that laws and regulations are for somebody else and who does not care a bit about the future of eMTBs.

THIS IS AN ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE. THIS IS NOT A BICYCLE!
Yeah, this is pretty true. I'll also add that these tear up the trails more than a similarly and even higher power hub motor powered bikes. I dont know if it's the knobbies or the mid drive but it's something I noticed pretty quick.

Here's a teaser vid I made while editing my full clip :)

www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
Rix
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 6286
Joined: Mar 29, 2012 11:26 am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Dec 21, 2017 7:54 pm

I dont know if it's the knobbies or the mid drive but it's something I noticed pretty quick.
Ironic Jay, I just sent you an email asking about the performance of this bike. It seems that these bikes bursting what..6kw appear to pull harder than your 9kw Fighter. Your Teaser appears to show this. What are your thoughts? Does it pull hard with less power input over a DD hubbie due to the mechanical advantage of the mid drive?

Post Reply