Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

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WoodlandHills
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by WoodlandHills » Dec 24, 2017 11:22 am

Are you serious? You really think that the problem with you riding your motorcycles on bicycle trails is that the people who built and maintain the trails are narrow minded? That its all their problem for not welcoming you with open arms?

Honestly, I have never seen such unaware people and such self-serving rationalizations in all my life: it is all about you and your desires isnt it and screw anyone else who comes along afterwards. As long as you can justify doing exactly what you want, the rights of others do not matter one bit. Such as those who are constantly struggling with land managers and others to keep access for MTBs open on multi-use trails. And what will happen when the hikers and horse riders get sick of seeing eMXers on their trails and get all bikes banned? Oh, that's right, you don't care and will just keep riding there anyway......

I can see that the point is to have your fun and not worry about what happens in the long run to anyone else who might want to legally ride an eMTB in the places where you have offended the rest of the users. Because it is someone else's fault for being narrow minded.........

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Dec 24, 2017 12:50 pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 2:41 am
Hyena's video👍

Is the one Luna's offering the same exact specs?
As far as we know there is only one model

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Dec 24, 2017 12:57 pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 11:22 am
Are you serious? You really think that the problem with you riding your motorcycles on bicycle trails is that the people who built and maintain the trails are narrow minded? That its all their problem for not welcoming you with open arms?

Honestly, I have never seen such unaware people and such self-serving rationalizations in all my life: it is all about you and your desires isnt it and screw anyone else who comes along afterwards. As long as you can justify doing exactly what you want, the rights of others do not matter one bit. Such as those who are constantly struggling with land managers and others to keep access for MTBs open on multi-use trails. And what will happen when the hikers and horse riders get sick of seeing eMXers on their trails and get all bikes banned? Oh, that's right, you don't care and will just keep riding there anyway......

I can see that the point is to have your fun and not worry about what happens in the long run to anyone else who might want to legally ride an eMTB in the places where you have offended the rest of the users. Because it is someone else's fault for being narrow minded.........
This has nothing to do with what Macrib was saying.

He was merely implying that it should not be about excluding regulation, but individual behavior and respect.
A reckless MTB rider can do more damage on the trail, than a careful respectful E-bike rider.
So for bikes that are equally silent and non polluting, the issue is not the vehicle but the people's behavior...
Everybody agrees that if an E-bike is on an MTB trail it should abide by the standards required to preserve an respect the trail and the other MTB riders.

What we object to is the blanket and aggressive rejection by some MTB riders that vehemently reject E-bike on their difference alone.

If people cannot be made to behave, regulation may be needed and that is unfortunate, but if an E-biker is on a trail respecting it and its MTB riders and gets reported just because he is an E-biker, this is basically a form of racism, rejecting someone for their difference not their actions, unless it is just misplaced entitlement.

Merry Christmas nevertheless. :)
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 24, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Dec 24, 2017 1:06 pm

Woodlandhills pls chill and do some stress relief exercises, wouldn't want you to drop dead on christmas eve from having a stroke or a heart attack. You are entitled to your opinions and your way of thinking is dually noted. For me that does not mean I will change my ways. But now you tried so you can drop it, ok?

I also ride single tracks that are, well marked on the map as foot paths and those are often used by mtb, x country riders, joggers, dog walkers, hikers, outdoors folks on their way to outdoor camping in the wilderness etc. No one holds claims to the area and no one should. We politely nod at each other as we meet, no matter what kind of wheel we got, or what kind of dog we are walking. This has been working very well for us for several years. I've been part of of a crew that did some digging to canal out some water, we done strips of woods where path crosses wetland, we have worked together side by side and never have I heard people complaining to me about my use of the foot path single track.

In the city I frequently ride at bike lanes, I ride in areas marked as pedestrians only, you are allowed to ride bicycle there but must not ride above walking speed. And guess what, for the short stretches I do there I can manage walking speed just fine. Neither one of the other users has any reason to hate on me or getting all worked up by me riding there.

I'll cross into parks if that makes my riding distance shorter. Even if there are people on skate-boards, strollers, dog walkers, wheel chairs etc. And guess what, I manage to cross that park without pissing people off. Because I ride their park with respect to the park and to the people. Meaning I don't ride WOT there, and I do slow down if I meat people.

You sir are not above anyone else. Does not matter that you ride a mtb. Your piss is yellow and your blood is red. Why you feel yo should have any special rights to your track is beyond me. In my eyes you sir, you are the one in the wrong.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 24, 2017 6:18 pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 11:22 am
Are you serious?
Yes, I am serious, I talked with Zlatko Vidic, a designer from Zagreb, here is a bike he built.
Zlatko Swing Arm.jpg
Actually the price for the design can be much smaller than some might think. Designer Zlatko Vidic prices, depending on frame complexity: 1# For design, calculations, and production ready drawings – min.1200 EUR. 2# jig drawings for 1000 EUR, for one kind of bike frame, swingarm. Welding could be done by several bike builders in several countries, they could share components, by buying together components they could have good prices. Production cost in China can be very small but they can use bad materials and there will be significant shipping costs. So production of such frames in Europe or USA can be competitive, I already bought frames from East Europe at a total cost smaller than China FOB price+shipping+EU custom clearing.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Dec 24, 2017 6:50 pm

macribs wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 1:06 pm
Woodlandhills pls chill and do some stress relief exercises, wouldn't want you to drop dead on christmas eve from having a stroke or a heart attack.
that train left the station long ago.

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From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Dec 24, 2017 7:49 pm

@Alex Imreh Are you suggesting kind of an open source approach to e-bike building? Open source in this perspective meaning people and companies can share blueprint as to a previous monetary agreement?

How would that work in real life? Some builders will drop off the map, others might join at a later date. Who will be the dictator of the open source movement that keep things together and keeps the cooperation moving forward like getting a v2 made, over time offer various add ons, like fat bikes swing arms, lighter frame, bigger frames for more batteries, various frame design for various usage?

I like the idea you have here, I just think there are some things that needs to be addressed early on so all parties know what to expect and surely know what they are paying for, how much, and what right follows those payments.

Your initial thought about competing against the Chinese I like a lot. As is today, it is really hard for small companies to compete against Chinese manufacturers, both because of their low labor costs, cheap access to cheap parts, and also on account of the blunt Chinese tradition of copying anything they see fit.

And we as consumers we are short sighted. We all have bills and monthly payments. If we can save a few hundred $ on a purchase by ordering from china, we are likely to do so. Because that leaves money left to pay for food, electricity and credit card bills. We neglect that fact that each time we rather shop from China we are taking active steps against the manufacturers in EU or US. We all would love to have quality manufacturers around us, but we can't be bothered with taking the costs. I am like that, most likely you are too. Often it is not even a conscience choice, it is just a spare of the moment choice we make, happy to save a few bucks.

If you keep on working with this train of thoughts and look more in depth on how things will play out I think you might be on to something. It is for sure something I could stand behind, making more sensible purchasing choices in the future. If this could be a way to support local businesses we can actually be maybe even become a catalyst for speeding up the move to a more green transportation?

Take a look at the Sur Ron. As of today what would be the cheapest an EU or US small company could offer such a bike? I wouldn't be surprised if the cost would be twice of what the Chinese charges. What would it take for at least no more then 20-30% premium over the Chinese build? Not that I am suggesting making a clone, just using the Sur-Ron as an example as it is a well working bike out of China, well designed with what appears to be quality parts and engineering.

Would your idea make it possible to build a bike from scratch locally, supporting local businesses yet keeping the price tag within what many people actually can afford? Maybe such a cooperation is what is needed for US and EU manufacturers to get higher volume sale rather then selling a handful a year? If that could be done then it could help shave down production costs. Higher volume of sales will be a key factor for batteries, maybe even controllers. If this could help getting low priced batteries that alone might be what makes your idea get traction.

Idea is 10/10 from me. How this would take shape and how it would work out for participants I don't fully grasp yet.

I applaud the idea.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by FlightService » Dec 24, 2017 11:58 pm

Open source design... Sounds like Local Motors business model where everyone does all the work and they build it and make the profit.
Engineer: (n) en·gi·neer \ˌen-jə-ˈnir\ -Someone who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. (See also: wizard, magician, miracle worker)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 25, 2017 10:42 am

Stealth was copied by Russians who were copied by Chinese. New design ideas will circulate.
I do not talk about open source. I have a small market in Romania and some ideas. Zlatko from Zagreb can do design, he could also sell in Croatia. Stefan from Austria is interested, he can invest, he had the money to buy 100 Kelly controllers so he can sell to us Kelly controllers at good price. Production could be done for example with the expertise and resources of the people who actually build the "Vector" frames and so on. I am not interested in chating with everybody and nobody, i propose cooperation and if i find 1-2 people like Stefan we are ready to go. Make a design, prototypes, small production, share components. If other will join one by one, the more the better. I think we could cooperate with at least 2 more bike builders, one from Poland the second from Austria.
FireFly is great design, congrats to the team, it is a good example for the new generation of Chinese designers and entrepreneurs to come. I will promote and try to sell their product, I am in contact with the factory as others from this forum. But FireFly needs EU homologation, i talk about speed pedalecs that do not need EU homologation, do not need plates, insurrance. EU birocracy and big business are as "bad" to small EU bike builders as "chinese competition".
Picture with wealth of new China entrepreneurs ..
chml.JPG
(93.81 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Macribs (or anybody else interested in cooperation between small bike builders), do you sell ebikes, do you have an online shop? Do you want to do this? Because after all, being a small bike builder is all about having a market, the passion to do this and some money to invest.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by madin88 » Dec 25, 2017 11:43 am

This thread is getting more and more OT.

Guys, please back to topic!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 25, 2017 2:39 pm

I agree with the off topic comment.

I personally imported the bikes to Australia and have been riding them like a proper dirtbike for weeks and love them.

I have over 20 years experience as a mechanic and auto Electrician and have been around many race car/fabrication work shops.
I can confidently say that you guys are dreaming if you think you can build a forged alloy frame bike and under cut the Chinese designers/manufacturers at Sur-Ron.
I strongly suggest someone in Europe buys the bike and then they can see what the fuss is about.
Amen

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 25, 2017 3:53 pm

There are several subjects being discussed here. They are all worthy of discussion, however...if OT discussion continues, it will be split off into its own thread. That is not a problem. Please start a new thread on the new subject, or else...google searches will not find it.

When ES members see that there is a new post in the "Sur-Ron thread" they do not click on it unless they are interested in the Sur-Ron. Romanian, Russian, and Chinese clone discussion will be very isolated to a handful of insiders. That's fine, if that is what you want, however...this thread will only show up in Google searches when the searcher types-in "Sur-Ron"...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 25, 2017 4:55 pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Dec 25, 2017 2:39 pm
I personally imported the bikes to Australia and have been riding them like a proper dirtbike for weeks and love them.
Could you please record trails with strava.com or something similar so that we can see trail details - range, speed, uphills, if you have any in Australia :) and so on, but most important for me is range versus speed. If you can record and publish here we can analyse.
Please also tell me how tall are you, if frame is not small for 180-190cm riders.
This is a strava recording on Bultaco Brinco with some uphills - https://www.strava.com/activities/538138292
Brinco Cluj.JPG
Brinco Cluj.JPG (87.88 KiB) Viewed 483 times
Last edited by Alex Imreh on Dec 25, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 25, 2017 4:58 pm


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 25, 2017 5:14 pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Dec 25, 2017 4:58 pm
Yesterday’s ride https://www.strava.com/activities/1326342683
2017-12-26.png
Thank you. You have the 60V32Ah version? What range can you make with your FireFly on such trails please?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 25, 2017 5:24 pm

Thanks

This was the 60v 32ah battery pack

The ride was not a full discharge, I started with 79% and returned with 14%

I am in the process of exploring the area finding the best trails for the bike.

I have taken the bikes on a range of terrains with no issues so far and completed nearly 300kms.

I am 175cm and 75kg my brother is riding with me and he is 183cm and 85kg.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 25, 2017 5:40 pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Dec 25, 2017 5:24 pm
This was the 60v 32ah battery pack. The ride was not a full discharge, I started with 79% and returned with 14%. I am 175cm and 75kg.
So 69% of the big battery to make 13.4km Distance, 43:17 Moving Time, 372m Elevation, Avg Speed 18.6km/h Max Speed 56.9km/h.
That means more than a description in many words.

Could you also pls measure 0 to 50/60km/h full throttle?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by mr.electric » Dec 26, 2017 11:28 pm

Luna Cycle tears it up once again. Offering a small ev with a 2kw hour battery for 3400 dollars. Our options here in the USA is we can buy a Pedego for about the same price. Or we can do what others suggest and go buy direct from china from who knows who.

Its funny that the Sur-Ron is what a lot of us original ESers have dreamed of and could get anything even close for under 10k.

Luna will be offering a pedal kit on this bike soon that will make it nothing less than a mid drive stealth bomber with a mid drive. Basically twice the bike for a 4th the price.

I heard the ebike battery was developed here in the USA by a few key engineers a few of them actually ESers....and they work on a team with the L word.

I also heard of big upgrades that Luna is going to offer very soon "for off road use only" where you will be able to run over 15k continuous watts with a fov sine wave controller (a modipus unit) and upgraded battery and bms...

But hey Luna are bad guys. (whatever) Its a bad thing that because of ebike politics that luna is not allowed to even post on this forum and tell you guys all the big news. Ask yourself why.
-Fat Sand Bike with 9c and 29ah pack

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rube » Dec 27, 2017 5:07 am

mr.electric wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 11:28 pm
But hey Luna are bad guys. (whatever) It's a bad thing that because of ebike politics that luna is not allowed to even post on this forum and tell you guys all the big news. Ask yourself why.
Don't stoke a Luna flame war and derail the thread. If these rumored upgrades are true the bike would be much more appealing as a dirtbike alternative, especially for adolescents starting out.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 27, 2017 6:15 am

mr.electric wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 11:28 pm
Luna will be offering a pedal kit on this bike soon ...
That is right on topic, very interesting thank you.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by fechter » Dec 27, 2017 9:49 am

Any idea how the pedal kit would look? Not that I would go that route, but it may allow for legal use on the street as a Class 3 ebike (in California).

The Firefly seems ideal for those areas where an unlicensed gas dirt bike would normally be used. Like when I used to have 300 acres up in the mountains, or old mining and logging roads.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Dec 27, 2017 11:56 am

fechter wrote:
Dec 27, 2017 9:49 am
Any idea how the pedal kit would look? Not that I would go that route, but it may allow for legal use on the street as a Class 3 ebike (in California).
LunaCycle is good @"marketing", taking credit for something offered by the factory, no contribution of Luna to this. The pedal kit is produced by China factory, they give me price for the kit, I asked for picture. Sooner or later full info on that item will be available. Adding pedals is one thing, using big chainwheels up to 50T is another thing, using a front derailleur is again another thing, engine working with PAS sensor or "cruise" button like Bultaco Brinco is again another thing..

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Dec 27, 2017 1:57 pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 3:47 pm
I have no problems with this bike at all: if I lived on a ranch or had easy access to an OHV area, I would buy one. I DO have big problems with a pedal kit for an out and out MX bike electric or otherwise though........ Is there any other reason for pedals on this machine besides illegally riding where only Class 1 eMTBs are permitted?
Again the issue is not the motorcycle, it's the pedal kit.......
Missed this earlier. I see you live in San Fernando Valley, I live in Nevada. The biggest issue for me about this bike not having pedals is I can't even ride it on jeep road and motorcycle trails or anything that is not on a closed course or private property legally. Up until a few years back, Nevada didn't have any title or registration requirements for OHV vehicles. Now we have to register EVERYTHING through the DMV . And to do that, the vehicle has to have VIN. There are procedures one can go through to get a state issued VIN assigned for a machine, but its PITA and incurs additional costs. If this bike had pedals on it, I could ride anywhere in the state that was offroad and not designated as a MTB, Horse, or Hiker trail and the BLM couldn't do shit about it because there is no power restrictions on pedal ebikes in off road situations where a motorcycles, atvs, and jeeps are allowed. And being that its an ebike that can be pedaled, there are no registration and title requirements. For these reasons, having pedals would be very beneficial to where this bike could be ridden legally in Nevada.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Voltron » Dec 27, 2017 2:05 pm

Totally second hand info, but the pedal kit apparently hooks to the motor, driving it as a generator to meet the functioning pedal requirement.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Dec 27, 2017 2:18 pm

Voltron wrote:
Dec 27, 2017 2:05 pm
Totally second hand info, but the pedal kit apparently hooks to the motor, driving it as a generator to meet the functioning pedal requirement.
Interesting. So would this mean that when "pedal assisting" the rider would be assisting the motor to turn instead of assisting the rear wheel to help the motor when running?

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