Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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scrambler
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Dec 29, 2017 10:51 pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Dec 29, 2017 7:30 pm
have you seen the "Mammoth" ebike yet??
seems to maybe check many of your boxes..
enduro design, up to 100km range, wide range 9 speed sequential gear box for the pedal transmission..

mammothebike.com
Rear hub bikes, many of these available today (Stealth, Vector, Qulbix etc...)
They do have a 9 speed gearbox (may be a Pinion), which put them in the ball park of the Stealth Bomber

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 29, 2017 11:24 pm

looks like the Mammoth motocross ebike is using a suntour gear box for the pedal transmission, from the pictures I've seen on their facebook and ev nerds, etc..

anyways, I started a separate thread for mammoth ebike so we can get back to sur ron here..

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=92112
scrambler wrote:
Dec 29, 2017 10:51 pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Dec 29, 2017 7:30 pm
have you seen the "Mammoth" ebike yet??
seems to maybe check many of your boxes..
enduro design, up to 100km range, wide range 9 speed sequential gear box for the pedal transmission..

mammothebike.com
Rear hub bikes, many of these available today (Stealth, Vector, Qulbix etc...)
They do have a 9 speed gearbox (may be a Pinion), which put them in the ball park of the Stealth Bomber
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by motomoto » Dec 29, 2017 11:55 pm

Sorry to change the subject but I just put together a new production bike. The one I have had for a month and a half
was a test model. The first thing I noticed was that this one is quiet. They must have switched the controller to a sine
wave output instead of a square wave output to the motor. Now you just hear the chain mostly. The power is up slightly
but not 20% like the factory told me. More like 10%. The USD forks look cooler but have a weird unsmooth action. I was all
hot on mounting a front fender but the KTM SX85 fender looked too big. With the motor quiet I want to make a belt kit to
replace the chain and make it super stealthy. I will ride this bike everywhere because it is quiet. I didn't want to hit the bike
trails with the first bike because it was noisy, but this one is fine. Now that I have this new bike I will build the 72 volt pack with
the Adaptto controller for the test bike and see how it does.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 30, 2017 12:25 am

since belt drive does not separate as a chain, belt installation will require removal of swingarm and jackshaft, etc.. probably possible but not very convenient for trail side repair or off-road durability..

may need a bit larger jackshaft output sprocket (belt needs more teeth engagement than chain) doesn't look like much more room available there?
Image
motomoto wrote:
Dec 29, 2017 11:55 pm
Sorry to change the subject but I just put together a new production bike. The one I have had for a month and a half
was a test model. The first thing I noticed was that this one is quiet. They must have switched the controller to a sine
wave output instead of a square wave output to the motor. Now you just hear the chain mostly. The power is up slightly
but not 20% like the factory told me. More like 10%. The USD forks look cooler but have a weird unsmooth action. I was all
hot on mounting a front fender but the KTM SX85 fender looked too big. With the motor quiet I want to make a belt kit to
replace the chain and make it super stealthy
. I will ride this bike everywhere because it is quiet. I didn't want to hit the bike
trails with the first bike because it was noisy, but this one is fine. Now that I have this new bike I will build the 72 volt pack with
the Adaptto controller for the test bike and see how it does.
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 01, 2018 1:48 pm

Anyone know what Luna has in mind for a peddle solution to the Sur-Ron? I've seen the factory peddle package and its very unattractive.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Jan 01, 2018 2:07 pm

RemoteRoad wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Anyone know what Luna has in mind for a peddle solution to the Sur-Ron? I've seen the factory peddle package and its very unattractive.
That would be a question for their forum :)
https://electricbike.com/forum/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 01, 2018 2:54 pm

Yeah, already sent them an email and found nothing on their boards. Suppose it is a holiday :-).

Is it Luna that you guys are ordering from, or is there some advantage or even possibility of ordering directly from factory?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by scrambler » Jan 01, 2018 3:09 pm

RemoteRoad wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 2:54 pm
Is it Luna that you guys are ordering from, or is there some advantage or even possibility of ordering directly from factory?
If you read the various group buy threads, you could definitely order direct.
Then of course if anything goes wrong, you will have to deal with china direct too.

So it is really a matter of comfort for warranty issues.
Luna has also announced a few things they plan to do to differentiate themselves on their product page, like more powerful version and such.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 01, 2018 3:35 pm

Saw that Luna is looking at offering a higher capacity battery. I see the 60v going for $2,850 on https://world.tmall.com/item/552799556962.htm? , before shipping I take it. Not much difference from Luna's pricing and Tmall's. Wondering if going direct to the factory has saved anyone a considerable amount. Saw Hyena and a few others pulled to order a batch direct.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Jan 01, 2018 5:44 pm

@RR I think for you to save money worth mentioning by getting Sur Ron directly from factory you need to well adversed in the freight and shipping world. If you could find a company that keeps containers on hand until filled with various goods and you got access to a freight harbor in your area so you can pick up the parcel on the dock you could save about 50% or so on regular shipping costs. Then again, many manufacturers have a minimum order of quantity when accepting orders. You might find yourself forced to buy ie 10 bikes just for them to deal with you directly.

Even so, lets say for arguments sake that they will grant you the wish of 1 bike, then you arrange the shipping. Say you manage to get the bike for 2500 $. Then 3-400 for sea shipping you will be close to 3000 $ before you bike i in your drive way. Give or take a little depending on the distance to the dock etc.

Now, if things goes wrong and you have issues and and all problems need to go via China. Most likely you will need to ship broken parts on your own dime to the manufacturer. After inspecting the returned items they may or may not grant a warranty repair or replacement. Don't be surprised if you are asked to cover the return shipment costs too, even if it falls under warranty. If it does not, you for sure need to pay for the new part + shipping.

If you are living in the US I wouldn't even consider dealing with the factory direct, unless they can give you a surprisingly low price for the bike. Or that you can broke a truly great shipping deal. Or preferable you get both, the great price for the bike and the great shipping. It is not all about the nickel and dime. Think about the stress factor and uncertainty if something fails. If it is a bulky and heavy item like battery those are both hard to get shipped to hazmat laws and expensive to ship due to share bulk and weight.

So how to get great price from the factory? Well the one thing that will help is the numbers. If you can buy a say a container load at once factory will put more effort into granting you low price wishes. That will lead into you need to put together a group buy. Some will sign up, pay up and be happy. Others will sign up then life will happen. And they might need to pull out before paying. Filling a container can take some effort from your side. That said, if you manage I am sure you will get rewarded by having a low priced Sur Ron in your garage.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Alex Imreh » Jan 01, 2018 5:53 pm

The world is not just USA. LunaCycle has nothing to do with Europe, because they do not ship this bike to Europe. There is a lot of sense separating the 2 markets not only because of shipping costs but because of VAT, customs. In Europe one thing is to import the bike DDP/no Vat and other thing if you want legal customs, with full VAT, in order to make some kind of registration maybe. If that will be possible. So we arrive again to EU homologation and registration. The bike is ideal for city mobility only if it can be registered. In my opinion it has not enough range for real enduro. So in the end it is a nice design sign of a new "era", shows what can do new generations of designers and entrepreneurs from China, but in the real word, in Europe, for the moment it is a nice toy to use in the countryside.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Yeah MacRibs, would only become worth if if the bike could be gotten closer to $2k or so by more direct purchase.

Super curious about what Luna has in mind for a peddle package. Hoping it isn't the same as the very poor package Sur-Ron's demonstrated in a video posted in this thread. The tiny cog on the rear wheel just kills the bike.
Last edited by RemoteRoad on Jan 01, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Jan 01, 2018 9:29 pm

macribs wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 5:44 pm

If you are living in the US I wouldn't even consider dealing with the factory direct, unless they can give you a surprisingly low price for the bike. Or that you can broke a truly great shipping deal. Or preferable you get both, the great price for the bike and the great shipping. It is not all about the nickel and dime. Think about the stress factor and uncertainty if something fails. If it is a bulky and heavy item like battery those are both hard to get shipped to hazmat laws and expensive to ship due to share bulk and weight.


The truth Mac, 2 years ago, I provided dealer direct services with US Crystalyte sales via www.electricrider.com for motors and controllers electric rider didn't carry as their flag ship offerings. Translation, I was offering 54xx TCxx, TC40xx, TC30xx and H4oxx motors for cost plus $20 USD for my troubles, plus shipping costs. Catch was, even though I was saving customers money, shipping was paid to me, then re-shipped to the customer from me. So I could offer a 600.00 (full retail)motor for $505.00 when everything was said in done. I did this for a while until a customer had a problem with a motor that didn't work. Because I valued my reputation, I ate the cost. I did get the motor working, its on my Bomber now. But offering motors at the lowest prices, didn't give me any margin of error for a malfunction. Now I understand why retailers were/are charging $695.00 or so for a TC40xx when I could get them shipped to me for $485. Its because they can afford to stand behind the product if it fails, as well as make a little profit for retail sales and be able to stay open and do business. The ebike industry is not an entirely cut throat service. I have encountered competitors.... from time to time that will still help each other out.
Last edited by Rix on Jan 01, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 01, 2018 9:37 pm

Alex, I've still not found someone who has gentled the throttle to keep the speed around 20mph for the duration of a battery life run. Do we yet know the 60v battery's "eco-mode" range with some certainty?

I really like how, in the same fashion as the bomber style enduro frames, whatever battery or electricity storage innovations come along, this Sur-Ron frame ought to have amble capacity to be retrofitted. It's smoother than the boxy enduros though. Closest thing I've personally seen to it is the Neematic.

Especially if peddle package and/or registration attempts are successful, this Sur-Ron bike holds the potential to really force a lot of really overpriced bikes way down. I've gotten the sense that some of the really geared up manufacturers are enjoying some rather large profit margins in e-bikes.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Jan 02, 2018 3:55 am

@Alex Outside US it can make sense to contact the factory direct. But the same guidelines applies for EU as I listed above. If you can't broke a great price from the manufacturer or you can't find a shipping agent that will help you with decent shipping costs I personally would choose to sit this one out for a while. Artur from vectorebike will start selling those Sur Ron's in Europe. Prices we don't know yet. I would rather deal with Artur then China if something breaks or fail.

If somehow Artur does not start selling em, maybe an EU group buy will get you the lower prices?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by JuiceMeUp » Jan 02, 2018 4:24 pm

As an owner,I've got to address this pedal retrofit idea that people have, in an attempt to put it to bed.
Like MacDonalds offering tofu on the Big Mac as a vego alternative. It just won't work!
Just as trying to stick a thong up ya bum is a useless exercise. Adding pedals to this bike is an act of design sodomy. If you want pedals, get a Stealth style frame. Otherwise enjoy it for what it is. Surprisingly awesome

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 02, 2018 4:34 pm

The Sur-Ron has a similar shape to the Neematic it seems to me.

The interesting setup to my mind would be an LMX style solution, where motor power is fed to a sprocket on one side of the wheel and peddle power to the other (via independent chains obviously). Is there room on the non-sprocketed of your rear wheel for another sprocket? Think some of the more custom freewheels will fit?

Considering your dismissal of the possibility of feasible peddles, what is it you think Luna has in mind? I have a set of questions in to them. Calling was fruitless.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by motomoto » Jan 02, 2018 8:26 pm

As an owner,I've got to address this pedal retrofit idea that people have, in an attempt to put it to bed.
Like MacDonalds offering tofu on the Big Mac as a vego alternative. It just won't work!
Just as trying to stick a thong up ya bum is a useless exercise. Adding pedals to this bike is an act of design sodomy. If you want pedals, get a Stealth style frame. Otherwise enjoy it for what it is. Surprisingly awesome
I've been wanting to say this for as long as I have heard the pedal thing cropping up. Some things are engineered correctly and leave no room for compromise. This bike is one such item. Just because some people have figured out how to motorize a bicycle does not mean
you can put pedals on a motorcycle

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Hyena » Jan 02, 2018 8:29 pm

Further more, I shot this video a few days ago :mrgreen:

www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 02, 2018 8:59 pm

Haha, but what if you weren't quite so tall?

Opinions on what Luna has in mind?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Jan 02, 2018 9:07 pm

Hyena wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 8:29 pm
Further more, I shot this video a few days ago :mrgreen:

Laughing my ass off Jay, we all used the term "ghost pedaling" before, but this takes it to the next level. :lol:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Jan 02, 2018 9:48 pm

motomoto wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 8:26 pm
As an owner,I've got to address this pedal retrofit idea that people have, in an attempt to put it to bed.
Like MacDonalds offering tofu on the Big Mac as a vego alternative. It just won't work!
Just as trying to stick a thong up ya bum is a useless exercise. Adding pedals to this bike is an act of design sodomy. If you want pedals, get a Stealth style frame. Otherwise enjoy it for what it is. Surprisingly awesome
I've been wanting to say this for as long as I have heard the pedal thing cropping up. Some things are engineered correctly and leave no room for compromise. This bike is one such item. Just because some people have figured out how to motorize a bicycle does not mean
you can put pedals on a motorcycle
So true.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by skeetab5780 » Jan 03, 2018 9:05 am

I guess it could have pedals similar to that old electric motorcycle some guy created, it drove highway speeds and the pedals turned a specially designed generator to regen hundreds of volts back into the battery for exercise purposes, and to feel like your giving back to the environment.
Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Jan 03, 2018 8:08 pm

[quote=skeetab5780 post_i
I guess it could have pedals similar to that old electric motorcycle some guy created, it drove highway speeds and the pedals turned a specially designed generator to regen hundreds of volts back into the battery for exercise purposes, and to feel like your giving back to the environment.
[img]httimg]
[/quote]

I like Hyena's on board pedal mod better :lol:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by johnrobholmes » Jan 04, 2018 8:29 pm

I got one from Luna and the speed restriction was still on. Anyone know the procedure to get full speed? I nipped the green wire above the battery and speed went from 40kmph to 10kmph top speed, so that didn't seem to be the right one, lol!

Looks decent so far. Not impressed with wheels, but they at least tried to replicate the style I built for so many ES members years back. Spokes are too thick and nipples too small IMO. Nipple angle is wrong too. But it will work. I'll be building a new wheelset or two for mine :)

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