My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 02, 2017 2:07 pm

That is you feeling about burner777 comments:
1. You have to pedaling hard because of the torque sensor. It means, if you want to go fast, you will sweat. Using the throttle is no difference between HD and Ultra.
2. In the flat the power delivery was pretty inconstant, with a pusing power delivery every second, but could be also the settings.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tommie » Dec 02, 2017 4:04 pm

Current Limit @ 18amps?? Why?

Should be 30amps.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 03, 2017 3:40 am

I only used the throttle to test the top speed, and I noticed no unusual behavior. It was completely smooth. I will use the torque sensor next time on the road to see how it behaves. I will also use the torque sensor to go up a steep hill in the highest assist level, and I will report back.
oleaiz wrote:
Dec 02, 2017 2:07 pm
That is you feeling about burner777 comments:
1. You have to pedaling hard because of the torque sensor. It means, if you want to go fast, you will sweat. Using the throttle is no difference between HD and Ultra.
2. In the flat the power delivery was pretty inconstant, with a pusing power delivery every second, but could be also the settings.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 03, 2017 12:48 pm

Here's a little info about the battery and charger.

https://youtu.be/4ApoI1LSBkw

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by melodious » Dec 04, 2017 6:55 pm

13s 21Ah. Wowee. My 29E cells are now officially technologically outdated. My battery literally encompasses the entire bicycle's triangle and has a similar capacity. :lol:

It looks like charging above 5A isn't a smart move due to how thin the plugs are, unless you gut them and replace with beefier connections. I'd be afraid I'd melt them as they are. Does the charger do 50%-80%-100% SOC?
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 05, 2017 10:31 am

Any news from lucky owner of Frey AM1000? Test behaviour of bike on torque sensor and pedaling assist? Range on battery? All other impression?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 05, 2017 11:00 pm

This bike wouldn't be my first choice but if you guys interested check this:
http://www.erangerbikes.com/fx41m-elect ... ntain-bike

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 06, 2017 2:46 am

No, the charger only charges to 100%. That would be a great suggestion for Frey. Having a charger that can charge to 50, 80 or 100% and a current selector for slow and fast charging like 2A and 5A would be very useful.
melodious wrote:
Dec 04, 2017 6:55 pm
13s 21Ah. Wowee. My 29E cells are now officially technologically outdated. My battery literally encompasses the entire bicycle's triangle and has a similar capacity. :lol:

It looks like charging above 5A isn't a smart move due to how thin the plugs are, unless you gut them and replace with beefier connections. I'd be afraid I'd melt them as they are. Does the charger do 50%-80%-100% SOC?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 06, 2017 3:22 am

I took the bike out for a quick ride around the neighborhood today so that I could answer your questions =)

I noticed no unusual behavior using the highest assist level on the flats. It will be a while until I get a chance to test the range. It's really cold now.

My impression of the torque sensor is that the programming needs to be adjusted. I feel that the power comes on too strong too early, and it does not increase as much as I would like it to when I pedal harder. I really hope I can get a hold of the software to see if I can adjust these settings. I still haven't taken it on the trails yet though. I should also mention that I was in "Sport" mode. I still have no idea how "Sport" and "Eco" differ. I'll have to look into it sometime. I'll have to try using the torque sensor in "Eco" mode to see if it feels different.

Another interesting thing I noticed today is that the motor causes the rear suspension to jack when power is applied. In other words, the rear end goes up. It is my understanding that this is due to the high pivot location. When the pivot is above the chainring, tension on the chain will pull the rear wheel toward the ground. Most mountain bikes are designed so that pedaling forces have minimal influence on the suspension (to reduce pedal bob).

I wonder if Frey should consider finding a way to put the pivot lower, at the same height as the top of the chainring. I haven't ridden enough to know if this will affect my riding, but I just thought I'd mention it. I only noticed it because I was looking at the suspension while I was accelerating. This effect didn't bother me.

But honestly, I would prefer a simple single pivot rear suspension (maybe a Horst Link/FSR design) if it makes it easier to optimize the suspension. If you look at any mountain bike, you'll see that the main pivot is usually located where the top of a 32T chainring would be.

Aside from that, I really like the way the bike handles. The frame-mounted battery puts the weight of the battery low, and it doesn't move around, so the bike feels very solid and stable. The brakes are very powerful. They feel much more powerful than my Shimano M8000 XTs.

These are still very initial impressions. I really need to spend a few hours on the trails to really know how I like it.
oleaiz wrote:
Dec 05, 2017 10:31 am
Any news from lucky owner of Frey AM1000? Test behaviour of bike on torque sensor and pedaling assist? Range on battery? All other impression?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Animalector » Dec 06, 2017 4:39 am

I have the bafang max 350w and in the street in assist 5 out of 5 it feels like a pedal activated throttle. Not really much in the way of torque sensing... But on level 2 and 3 it feels more like normal riding but you end up going faster then normal

On the trails this effect is multiplied in the sense that when you are riding it feels like you're working so hard. But actually you're charging up the trails. Crazy steep sections that previously your could not pedal up become difficult but so long as you push hard the bike will pull you up them... gotta push hard though.

As I said it feels like your working so hard and that the bike isn't doing anything but when you turn off the assist you realise how much it it was actually assisting.. I imagine yours will be like this on the lower power levels. But at the higher levels it'll feel like a throttle.

Looking forward to you getting on the tracks. I contemplated getting this bike but decided 1000w was overkill.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 06, 2017 5:38 am

Nice review. I understood that the bike have to be tested at different settings in different riding conditions. The software is needed. I ask Ivy several time about the possibility to get software, no answer. She told me that they have software and testing it. Which cable is needed? Same as BBSHD? Many questions, no answers so far. As we become more and more owner's of this bike, may be we can do more.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by nataS@phnet.fi » Dec 07, 2017 3:08 pm

Finally got my bike!! Gonna test drive it soon, hopefully going to be a blast in the snow storm :)

The charger that came with the bike looks really bad, don't trust it a bit. No luck with the Satiator charger, I think I will cut the connector from the chinese one and make a new one for the Satiator. I've always charged my batteries to just 85% and gonna go with the same route with this one also.
Bike feels really heavy and huge but I think the motor will make up to it,never had a bike with bigger tires or full suspension. Look promising..

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Congratulations to new bike. Ride with pleasure. How long time was shipping from China to Finland? Did you escape from custom taxes in Finland? My bike will be ready by the end of this week. Regards Ole.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm

Looks like you're spoiled by your $300 charger =) What makes it look bad? It looks the same as the ones from Luna Cycle and EM3EV. It's a lot better than those plastic chargers.

I like to charge to full voltage for maximum power, but I only charge it before I ride. After I ride, I just leave the battery uncharged until I need it again. The only time I charge to 80% is when I need to charge my backup battery. It's my understanding that sitting at a higher voltage for a long time is what damages a battery.

I was just looking at the carbon fiber Luna Cycle Apex, and its listed weight is 65-75 lbs. This bike sits in that range at 67.4 lbs =)

Another thing I noticed was that the handlebar is really wide. I have a 785mm wide handlebar on two of my bikes, and the Frey's handlebar is even wider. I had to slide the seat all the way forwards to get a more comfortable riding position. I'm glad the frame doesn't feel small.

Congrats on the bike! Looking forward to hearing about it!
nataS@phnet.fi wrote:
Dec 07, 2017 3:08 pm
Finally got my bike!! Gonna test drive it soon, hopefully going to be a blast in the snow storm :)

The charger that came with the bike looks really bad, don't trust it a bit. No luck with the Satiator charger, I think I will cut the connector from the chinese one and make a new one for the Satiator. I've always charged my batteries to just 85% and gonna go with the same route with this one also.
Bike feels really heavy and huge but I think the motor will make up to it,never had a bike with bigger tires or full suspension. Look promising..

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 07, 2017 5:19 pm

Thanks. I wish I could give you more information but I just haven't had a chance to ride much. I was told that the software should be ready soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing what parameters are adjustable for the torque sensor. I will let you know about the cable when I find out.

Yes, hopefully as more of us get this bike, we can share all kinds of information with each other and even suggestions to Frey to make us an even better bike in the future =)
oleaiz wrote:
Dec 06, 2017 5:38 am
Nice review. I understood that the bike have to be tested at different settings in different riding conditions. The software is needed. I ask Ivy several time about the possibility to get software, no answer. She told me that they have software and testing it. Which cable is needed? Same as BBSHD? Many questions, no answers so far. As we become more and more owner's of this bike, may be we can do more.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 08, 2017 12:46 am

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 08, 2017 1:01 am

Thanks for posting the screenshots. Anyone want to figure out what these settings do?

On the torque tab, I wonder if the delta voltage sets the voltage the torque sensor sends to the throttle input. For example, if I want less throttle input voltage at lower pedal pressures, I would change the delta voltages to lower numbers for the Kg ranges. It just occurred to me that a torque sensor-equipped bike needs to be tuned to the rider's weight. If I understand correctly, 60kg looks like the maximum pedal pressure, so a heavy person would hit that under what they might consider "light" pedaling. This is interesting.

So according to this, the torque sensor has 8 levels.

I wonder if the "About Tq" area shows the voltage of the current pedal pressure, so if I step on the pedal, I would press "Get," and it would display the throttle voltage the torque sensor is sending. "Continuous Get" would give a live reading of the voltage. This way, I could tune it until it behaves the way I want it to, and I can see how changing the settings changes the throttle voltage. I can't wait to try this out!
Last edited by robocam on Dec 08, 2017 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by nataS@phnet.fi » Dec 08, 2017 1:03 am

robocam wrote:
Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm
Looks like you're spoiled by your $300 charger =) What makes it look bad? It looks the same as the ones from Luna Cycle and EM3EV. It's a lot better than those plastic chargers.

Another thing I noticed was that the handlebar is really wide. I have a 785mm wide handlebar on two of my bikes, and the Frey's handlebar is even wider. I had to slide the seat all the way forwards to get a more comfortable riding position. I'm glad the frame doesn't feel small.
Hah, spot on on the spoiled part :D I'm just maybe too careful not burn my house (or workplace) down, that's why I'm over cautious with anything related to electricity. Maybe I was too sceptical about the charger. But maybe not.

I agree with the handlebar, it frigging wide! But have to say it wasn't too bad when driving it last night. Little bit trail action and lot of snow, felt like there's no place I couldn't go with this tank :) Of course the rear derailleur was stuck almost immediately with wet snow but lot of fun, really couldn't feel the weight of the bike when riding. Torque makes it all up.

I really hope we manage to get the programming sorted, at least I need the throttle to have much more power and power needs to come much sooner. I like the Eco mode, it makes you work more and that suits me very well. Definitely not as quick as my last bike with 52v BBSHD but much nicer to ride.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Kitaro1999 » Dec 08, 2017 3:37 am

nataS@phnet.fi wrote:
Dec 08, 2017 1:03 am
Definitely not as quick as my last bike with 52v BBSHD but much nicer to ride.
Also echoed by Karl G's review of the Luna Apex - the stock 1000w programming is not as quick as the BBSHD or the BBSO2 for the weight. Let's hope we figure out the right programming.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Drum » Dec 08, 2017 4:13 am

For figuring out how to "tune" the parameters to alter response, it would be helpful to have the manual as well as the screenshots of the parameters.
My guess is the "Delta Voltage" is a correction to get the individual torque sensor output voltage the same as it is supposed to be at each "torque" (or pedal force) (I don't guarantee this though..) and if I am right, leave those alone.

The tuning of the "throttle Response" based on torque input is done in the next section below.. where you can see that it takes 20kg to get anything happening in "Speed 0", but only 6kg in "Speed 100".

Similarly, full power is produced when pedal force reaches 50kg in Speed 0, but it only takes 25kg to reach full power in Speed 100.

So this is the section where you can tune the response. If say you reduced the "Full" figure from 25 to 15kg on speed 100, you would get full assist with less force on the pedals.. this would feel "more powerful" at low pedal forces. It might make it more jerky though as torque varies during the pedal rotation.
I am guessing that the output voltage would be linear between these "Pedal Force" values. You may be able to tweak the response a bit by altering the Max Voltage figure from 4.3 to say 4.8V (4300mV to 4800) which might make it react slightly faster (or slower, depending on which way the logic works.. lower it if raising it seems wrong).

But my guess is: leave most of it alone and tune only the start and max pedal force figures for each level of assist.

I repeat, this is all guesswork.. without the manual (or some time playing myself) I can't be sure.

Whatever, screenshot or write down the factory settings BEFORE changing anything! (Ask me how I know that's a good idea!!!)

Funny how tempting it is to click on the parameters to see what options / limits there are, only to remember it is only a screenshot, not an active program!!

Dave

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 08, 2017 4:59 am

What I want to do is change the mapping of the torque sensor. I want lighter pedal pressures to produce a lower throttle voltage, and higher pedal pressures mapped to the maximum output voltage. Right now when I pedal lightly, the bike just takes off, and when I pedal harder, it doesn't feel like the motor is giving me enough assist.

I wonder if I should lower the "MinCur(%)."
Last edited by robocam on Dec 08, 2017 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by nataS@phnet.fi » Dec 08, 2017 5:11 am

There's an option for English in the program as seen in one of the screenshots on page 4.

Edit. Have to take a look at this at home and look if there's a download page somewhere. Thanks!
Last edited by nataS@phnet.fi on Dec 08, 2017 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 08, 2017 5:15 am

If only the program had balloons that explained each parameter's function.
nataS@phnet.fi wrote:
Dec 08, 2017 5:11 am
There's an option for English in the program as seen in one of the screenshots on page 4.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by icehunter » Dec 08, 2017 5:17 am

> Of course the rear derailleur was stuck almost immediately with wet snow but lot of fun

Not good news as I was thinking of this bike for snow... Do you think an internal gear hub such as the NuVinci would be an option on this bike? How are the dropouts?

N380x ( https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/11/nu ... x-cvp-hub/ )
NFINITY 380 ( http://www.nuvincicycling.com/en/products/nfinity.html )

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 08, 2017 5:40 am

If you can get the 148x12 model, it should work.
icehunter wrote:
Dec 08, 2017 5:17 am
> Of course the rear derailleur was stuck almost immediately with wet snow but lot of fun

Not good news as I was thinking of this bike for snow... Do you think an internal gear hub such as the NuVinci would be an option on this bike? How are the dropouts?

N380x ( https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/11/nu ... x-cvp-hub/ )
NFINITY 380 ( http://www.nuvincicycling.com/en/products/nfinity.html )

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