My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

[hoojsn]

Ordered mine tonight!

You ordeting the IGH or the bike? If the bike what is the spec?

[robocam]

Awesome

Ordered mine tonight!

[scrambler]

Hi,
Here is something I am trying to figure out, and I was wondering if you may be interested in and have the time to test for us

I am considering getting a bike with the Bafang Ultra, as it seems like it has the right amount of power for what I need.
I do want to use an IGH, as I don't want to deal with the Derailleur pitfalls.
Problem is not many IGH can take the power of the Ultra.

At the top of the list for strength you have the Rohloff which also offers a wide gear range (526%), but 14 gears means a lot of shifting, and it is also very expensive.
Next on the strength ladder are the 3 speed like Nexus and Sturmey archer, but with a lot less range (158% / 177%)
And you have middle of the road for strength with SA 5 speed or Alfine 8 speed (243% / 307%)
Untested will be the new NuVinci High Torque N380X (380% range but on spec not able to take the 160NM of the Ultra)

Besides the obvious need for strength, for an electric bike what you would ideally need is fewer gears, but a wide gear range so you can pedal both steep climbs and at high speed (30mph)

If we put aside the Rohloff because of the 14 gears and its price, the question becomes how much range is enough to be able to both pedal at high speed, and climb steep hills.

To help us determine that, it would help if you could test the following:
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going from a dead start without too much effort
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going up hill from a dead stop, without too much effort, and what speed can you reach at that gear.

With that info and the Nb of teeth of the sprocket and chainring and wheel outside Diameter, I can extrapolate both side of the equation, and determine the minimal Ideal gear range needed to fully exploit the Ultra.

Let me know if this is something you may want to test on occasion.
Thanks

[Robleman]

Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!

It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.

Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.

So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.

[scrambler]

Thank you for that.

Let us know if you can check what is the highest gear you can start going uphill with the Ultra

[WoodlandHills]

There are two different SA 5-speeds, the newer one with the rotary shifter was designed for high torque and ebikes from the start. I used one for a few hundred miles exclusively off-road with no issues until a chain derail broke the plastic shift cable connection at the hub, something that would not have happened on the street IMHO. I only ran 1500w through it but it took it without complaint. I think I will fix it and have it laced into an appropriate rim for my recumbent and replace its Magic Pie with a BBSHD and a Phaserunner/CA3 setup, just to see what happens.

[scrambler]

There are two different SA 5-speeds, the newer one with the rotary shifter was designed for high torque and ebikes from the start. I used one for a few hundred miles exclusively off-road with no issues until a chain derail broke the plastic shift cable connection at the hub, something that would not have happened on the street IMHO. I only ran 1500w through it but it took it without complaint. I think I will fix it and have it laced into an appropriate rim for my recumbent and replace its Magic Pie with a BBSHD and a Phaserunner/CA3 setup, just to see what happens.

Is that the model you are speaking of?
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rk5

[WoodlandHills]

Yes, the part that broke is the lever on the top right side of the hub in the photo. The rotary shift lever is what failed when the chain jumped the rear cog and hooked it.

[dugg914]

I'm new at this, but have done a lot of research into ebikes, some of which I believe I may understand. Like others, I would definitely like to have a suitable IGH for my ebike. However, my understanding is that it is European/Asian companies the manufacture the IGHs, and 250W-350W is what their main sales area is limited to. So they really have little incentive to make an IGH that would handle 1500W. Are there any USA manufactures of IGHs? USA seems to be the country for high-powered (albeit illegal for road use) ebikes.

[scrambler]

I'm new at this, but have done a lot of research into ebikes, some of which I believe I may understand. Like others, I would definitely like to have a suitable IGH for my ebike. However, my understanding is that it is European/Asian companies the manufacture the IGHs, and 250W-350W is what their main sales area is limited to. So they really have little incentive to make an IGH that would handle 1500W. Are there any USA manufactures of IGHs? USA seems to be the country for high-powered (albeit illegal for road use) ebikes.

I don't know of any US manufacturer, and if indeed the power limitations in action in Europe makes it a low incentive to develop stronger IGH, Asia may be different with products like the Bafang Ultra starting to spread.

When I saw the News on SRAM terminating its production of IGH, and saying it is because of the E-bikes rise that use predominantly derailleur, I cant help but wonder if some of these people are clueless. For me it seems that ultimately the IGH should be the preferred choice on an E-bike as its only pitfall (weight and efficiency) are pretty much irrelevant on a power assisted bike.

But until the market matures further, and IGH manufacturer start to get it, we are left with little choices for strong IGH with a wide gear range.

Below is a good article on the subject in case you have not read it yet
http://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/

[Ecyclist]

I have Rohloff Speedhub, 14 Speeds on my e-bike and I can tell you that it is worth every penny I paid for it.
You can change gears from 1st to 14th in a second. After a couple of months of riding it became very smooth.

[FREYebikes]

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

[scrambler]

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Glad to hear from you.
1- The original poster had some interesting remark on small geometry changes for the frame See below.

Another interesting thing I noticed today is that the motor causes the rear suspension to jack when power is applied. In other words, the rear end goes up. It is my understanding that this is due to the high pivot location. When the pivot is above the chainring, tension on the chain will pull the rear wheel toward the ground. Most mountain bikes are designed so that pedaling forces have minimal influence on the suspension (to reduce pedal bob).

I wonder if Frey should consider finding a way to put the pivot lower, at the same height as the top of the chainring. I haven't ridden enough to know if this will affect my riding, but I just thought I'd mention it. I only noticed it because I was looking at the suspension while I was accelerating. This effect didn't bother me.

But honestly, I would prefer a simple single pivot rear suspension (maybe a Horst Link/FSR design) if it makes it easier to optimize the suspension. If you look at any mountain bike, you'll see that the main pivot is usually located where the top of a 32T chainring would be.

2- You could also exchange his modified settings for the torque sensing programing, so you could deliver the bike with a better default

3- As per the last few posts, you should offer the option of an Internal geared hub that can cope with the Ultra Motor while offering a decent Gear range.

4- Offering a longer warranty would go a long way reassuring people about buying from a far away unknown company

[Drop Dead Fred]

Ordered mine tonight!

You ordering the IGH or the bike? If the bike what is the spec?

I ordered the bike, got it in black also, upgraded the fork to a Lyrk too and got some derailleur hangers too. Thanks robocam for the color option and hangers (because yes I have broken a few). Guys, Ivy Wang is very helpful and will put up with endless emails to get it right.

Bike specs:

AM1000-S.png (82.77 KiB) Viewed 621 times

Definitely want to keep the bike a class 1 so will be running without a throttle!
Did 12 miles today at a 1500 vertical feet single track before the storm hits. Looking forward to getting it a trying it out.
Anyone know anywhere else to get a programing cable? Luna is out at the moment... maybe will have some when I get the bike.

[robocam]

That is a great idea, and it's actually something Ivy and I are discussing right now =)

Just a quick poll.

For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?

Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?

For me, it's yes to both.

...You could also exchange his modified settings for the torque sensing programing, so you could deliver the bike with a better default...

[FREYebikes]

Hi friends! thank you for your kind feedback. We are improving our bikes again and again.
1. We noticed the lift issue when the motor power started at beginning. Now we are trying to improve it in the new batch frames, we will make the pivot point lower, and try to make the bottom 2 points in a line to make it flat force when the motor started.
We will make same frame to test and let you know. By the way, we will make new ones with rear 160mm travel for choice. Now rear body travel is 150mm.
2. We will exchange more with our customers to make the software original setting much better to ride. But I guess different guys like different ways, that's depend on you! We will offer the configuration tool and the cable to our customers for their using!
3. I noticed many friends are talking about internal gears. We are also interested, but it seems there is few choice to fit on mountain bike, especially to a high end All mountain ebike fit with a big power mid drive motor.
4. Now we offering 2 years warranty. and service will keep longer time.

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Glad to hear from you.
1- The original poster had some interesting remark on small geometry changes for the frame See below.

Another interesting thing I noticed today is that the motor causes the rear suspension to jack when power is applied. In other words, the rear end goes up. It is my understanding that this is due to the high pivot location. When the pivot is above the chainring, tension on the chain will pull the rear wheel toward the ground. Most mountain bikes are designed so that pedaling forces have minimal influence on the suspension (to reduce pedal bob).

I wonder if Frey should consider finding a way to put the pivot lower, at the same height as the top of the chainring. I haven't ridden enough to know if this will affect my riding, but I just thought I'd mention it. I only noticed it because I was looking at the suspension while I was accelerating. This effect didn't bother me.

But honestly, I would prefer a simple single pivot rear suspension (maybe a Horst Link/FSR design) if it makes it easier to optimize the suspension. If you look at any mountain bike, you'll see that the main pivot is usually located where the top of a 32T chainring would be.

2- You could also exchange his modified settings for the torque sensing programing, so you could deliver the bike with a better default

3- As per the last few posts, you should offer the option of an Internal geared hub that can cope with the Ultra Motor while offering a decent Gear range.

4- Offering a longer warranty would go a long way reassuring people about buying from a far away unknown company

[FREYebikes]

Good to see you here!
Don't worry about the cable, if you do not have cable, we will offer you when your bike is ready!

Ordered mine tonight!

You ordering the IGH or the bike? If the bike what is the spec?

I ordered the bike, got it in black also, upgraded the fork to a Lyrk too and got some derailleur hangers too. Thanks robocam for the color option and hangers (because yes I have broken a few). Guys, Ivy Wang is very helpful and will put up with endless emails to get it right.

Bike specs:AM1000-S.png

Definitely want to keep the bike a class 1 so will be running without a throttle!
Did 12 miles today at a 1500 vertical feet single track before the storm hits. Looking forward to getting it a trying it out.
Anyone know anywhere else to get a programing cable? Luna is out at the moment... maybe will have some when I get the bike.

[FREYebikes]

We will make our bike better and better with all your feedback and supports.
We study with big brands like Giant, Merida to make our bike with good quality, performance but in much lower cost to offer customers.
The rear suspension construction is close to Giant Full E, and the Geometry is very close to Merida E Sixty.
Our chainstay is 474mm, Giant Full E seems 463mm, right? it is a little longer than other brands, that's because we can fit with 3.0" tire and the Bafang Ultra motor is also bigger size than other motors I think. We have made the frame the best compact as we can, there is few space wasted. : )

[icehunter]

> So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Well, NUMBER ONE : if you could lighten the bike by a few kilos, that would be on everybody's list I think

If you are looking for an edge compared to all other Asian vendors, I would look at battery technology. 52V would be much appreciated and you should definitely look at the 20700 and 21700 cells, high amps and high capacity. They can easily do 15A discharge with over 30% increase in runtime for only a few millimeters size increase.

Everybody is jumping on the 20700/21700 wagon ; single cell flashlight used to be around max 1200 lumens but suddenly we have 4000 lumens single cell light such as the Acebeam L30 ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... 00lm-20700 ) ; If you do a quick google search on 20700 you can quickly see that the vaping community is jumping this way ; Tesla is doing it ,) ; And Luna is building its max ultra on a 20700 battery. A review on the cell from ebike perspective is here https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your information. We will check about the battery cells whether there is some good choice for future.
We are prepare to make 52V sample to test. 52V 1300W power match a 52V 17.5AH battery with 70pcs LG MJ1 3500mA cells can fit for the battery case.
Here are full of engineer and technician!
I think we can do something like co-create together.

> So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Well, NUMBER ONE : if you could lighten the bike by a few kilos, that would be on everybody's list I think

If you are looking for an edge compared to all other Asian vendors, I would look at battery technology. 52V would be much appreciated and you should definitely look at the 20700 and 21700 cells, high amps and high capacity. They can easily do 15A discharge with over 30% increase in runtime for only a few millimeters size increase.

Everybody is jumping on the 20700/21700 wagon ; single cell flashlight used to be around max 1200 lumens but suddenly we have 4000 lumens single cell light such as the Acebeam L30 ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... 00lm-20700 ) ; If you do a quick google search on 20700 you can quickly see that the vaping community is jumping this way ; Tesla is doing it ,) ; And Luna is building its max ultra on a 20700 battery. A review on the cell from ebike perspective is here https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

[gidooo]

Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?

[Drop Dead Fred]

Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?

I think those are a ways out, but should be able to go into a carbon frame and save a lot of weight. Hmmm... can you say next purchase?

[Drop Dead Fred]

We will make our bike better and better with all your feedback and supports.
We study with big brands like Giant, Merida to make our bike with good quality, performance but in much lower cost to offer customers.
The rear suspension construction is close to Giant Full E, and the Geometry is very close to Merida E Sixty.
Our chainstay is 474mm, Giant Full E seems 463mm, right? it is a little longer than other brands, that's because we can fit with 3.0" tire and the Bafang Ultra motor is also bigger size than other motors I think. We have made the frame the best compact as we can, there is few space wasted. : )

Ivy, thanks for keep studying. Personally I like that we can put a 3.0 tire in as my current bike is running 2.8 and rub sometimes pretty hard. But I like the bigger tires for off road!

[scrambler]

Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?

For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.

Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?

I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

[scrambler]

4. Now we offering 2 years warranty. and service will keep longer time.

Excellent news!