Heavy cargo hauler project

[Cargo_Tom]

The parts have begun trickling in
The stock rim on the 9C 2812 was alot narrower than I expected. It is with my local bike mechanic for a fine tuning and a moped tire. Time will tell how it holds up. I reckon I will get almost everything ready to go in the next 3-4 weeks.

I ordered two torque arms from methods. Only one was in the box when it arrived. I'm guessing the 2nd one got lost during customs inspection. Bummer. I'm tempted to order another three just to be sure the fork will handle the torque and regen. I will be looking into modifying one of them to include attachment points for a disk brake caliper.

I discussed the bike project with my carpenter aquaintance today. He will slot me into his schedule between june 12 & 17. It will get made from 12mm marine grade plywood. The basic plan is attached below.

The "Engine room" will have a slot cut in the floor and will be seated over the front of the frame, just above the fork. About one third of the wheel will clear the front edge of the box. We will install a divider to isolate the electricals from the cargo bay. This will also have a water proofed lid. In addition I'll get the local sail maker to custom fit a trailer tarp over the cargo box to keep everything dry.

Cheers
-Tom

[jkbrigman]

Hey Cargo_Tom;

I use a 9c 2810 for my 63-mile-round-trip commute. I can offer you some real-world feedback:

Motor: 9c 2810 rear drive, 26" wheel, 1.5" Schwalbe Marathon (20" 1.5" Kenda Kwest on the front)
All-up Weight: Approximately 360lbs, which includes:
Me, Bike, Motor/batt/controller, 1 cargo pannier
Battery: 18S 15Ah LiPo (74V HOC, about 72V "nominal", will sag as low as 66V before CA cutout)

Comments:

1) I can travel up a 45 degree, 1200 ft incline at 14mph, no pedaling, and nothing gets warm. I see >2kW motor power input on that incline and the 9c 2810 doesn't seem to care at all.
2) I can travel 22mph on flats with 250W, no pedaling.
3) I would say my experience supports what the simulator says regarding a 2810 with 400lbs to push.
4) methods made the comment to me "You can make power with current or make power with voltage - for my money, voltage is the way to go". In other words, P=EI or P=I^2R. You're generating far less heat at higher voltage/lower current than at lower voltage/higher current. I chose 18S LiPo (72-74V) and have been completely happy.
4) In my experience, there appears to be a highly nonlinear correlation between added pedal input and motor current draw. Any pedaling I do, even light spinning, has a very positive effect on motor performance. I believe I can put out 100-200W of pedal power, but with that same 100-200W, I can drop motor power consumption by 250-300W.
5) In the end, your own needs, your own bike, your own weight and your own route are such variables, that any advice you get here is going to be limited by those parameters. In my case, I got the (awesome) advice from ES members to buy from ES-recommended vendors, then from there on out, you do your own experimentation and your own build and see what you end up with.

I'm sure you can see from the continuous engagement you've gotten with some of the best and brightest on E-S bodes well for you and your approach. If you were a fruit loop, no one would want to gab with you. As it is, it's clear to see you are an intelligent individual approaching the problem in a wise, analytical way. That keeps the rest of us interested and engaged in your build thread because even as we might offer advice and input, we also seek your feedback and experience to add to the body of knowledge.

OF all things, please know that we're pulling for you 110% and we are excited to hear how your build turns out and what results you end up with. The "incline vs. weight" challenge you are dealing with is unique and extreme and I know I am very interested in finding out how it turns out for you.

JKB

[dogman]

45 degree? I seriously doubt it. 45% believable. Most people cannot even stand on a 45 degree slope. To most people 15 degrees looks like 45 degrees.

[Alan B]

Those 20" tires are magic.

With my 18S Lipo, 12 FET controller and 9C 2810 equipped mountainbike on 26" tires I can do 15 or so mph with pedaling on 12%. Total system weight about 275 pounds.

Paved roads are generally less than 15% which is "really steep".

[Chalo]

1) I can travel up a 45 degree, 1200 ft incline at 14mph, no pedaling, and nothing gets warm.

I'm curious what's the actual slope you're talking about. Slopes are deceptive-- they feel steeper than they are. But to put things in perspective, 45 degrees equals 100% grade. The steepest paved streets in North America are just over 30% grade, which is about 17 degrees from the horizontal. They feel like walls when you're climbing them, though.

Most e-bikes are doing very well to tug their way up a 10% grade, which is about 6 degrees but feels quite steep. A lot of them can't do it.

Chalo

[jkbrigman]

45 degree? I seriously doubt it. 45% believable. Most people cannot even stand on a 45 degree slope. To most people 15 degrees looks like 45 degrees.

Good point: I think the roof on my house is 45 degree, and yes, it's very difficult to stand on. I'll go measure both the angle of the incline and the length of the climb.
That should help me quantify my statement better: that at a higher battery supply voltage, a 2810 can haul a lot of weight up a long steep hill before getting hot.

[Cargo_Tom]

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Update time.

The Ping pack is going through customs this weekend. Once I have that in hand I can begin electrification.

In the meantime I've been trying my hand at amateur carpentry. The cargo box has been built, spackled (is that even a word?), and have recieved most of its primer.

This will be painted over with blackboard paint so the kid (and those young at heart) will have something to do between trips. I'll also be wrapping all edges with road case fittings for durability. I'll get the local sailmaker to fit a tarp for weatherproofing.

More updates to follow in the coming days and weeks.
Cheers
-Tom

[dogman]

Good to see you making progress. Exiting stuff I bet. Love the idea of a rolling chalkboard art bike.

On the slopes, I've estimated the steepest slope my 2812 powered dirt bike can climb very far up at 20 degrees. That converts to about 36% But that is dirt, rocks, etc. Likely it could do a bit more on pavement. A slow wind 9c can climb pretty steep stuff with ease if the bike's not too heavy.

Can't wait to see Toms results with this cargo bike.

[SamTexas]

Cargo_Tom, just want to share with you my experience with the 9C 2812 in a 20" front wheel : I've had it for about 3 weeks now. It's installed on a kid 20" Giant Mountain bike. I run it on 14s Laptop LiCo (51.8V nominal, 930Wh). Total weight = 70lbs + 135lbs (me).

Top speed on level ground = 15mph. I noted that you bought two 36V batteries. Are you running them in series or in parallel? In parallel, 38.4V nominal will only get you up to 11.1mph (17.8kph).

Torque: Incredible torque. There are several well groomed grass hills in my town. The bike takes me up on 30% grade (not degree) hills without any complain, NO pedalling at all. The steepest hill (at 30% grade) is only about 100 feet (30m) long. When the grass is damp, the front driving wheel loses traction at about 2/3 of the way up. So I had to pedal a little (two wheel drive) to regain traction. No problem at all on a dry day. The motor remains warm to the touch, never get hot. You will definitely need those torque arms. My motor spun out and destroyed the steel fork within a week playing on those hills. 100% my bad. I did not install the torque arms.

[Cargo_Tom]

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I've bought a serial wire harness for the two ping batteries, giving me a 72v, 20Ah pack with a 40A ebikes.ca controller.

Most electral components will get fitted in the front compartment, leaving the rear for cargo and offspring. I will be padding the front compartment with modular thermal insulation. I want to attempt to keep the batteries above freezing temperatures year round. The bike will park in a carport, and my hypothesis is that thermal insulation, daily use and auxillary power will be sufficient to keep the insulated battery compartment at nice and comfy temps, despite the scandinavian climate.

Edit: Just getting comfortable with the attachment feature. Here is a side view.

[dogman]

2812 in 20" rim would be a badass climber. In 26" rim mine are pretty sweet.
I don't have a bmx bike, so I never actually ran my 2812's in a 20" rim. I just put the winding into a 26" laced rotor.

Too bad you can't get them in the US in a rear hub anymore.

For those who may be following this, here is a European source for slower winding 9 c motors.
http://www.wheelkits.it//index.php

[Cargo_Tom]

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Watching paint dry merits an update, right?

I went on a spending spree today, as I've decided to change all nuts, bolts and other hardware to marine grade stainless steel.
On one hand rust acts as a theft deterrent, which is very useful. On the other hand I'm not keen on the rusted look at all, and essential hardware should be dependable. I've also invested in some automotive black paint which inhibits rust and can me brushed straight on rusted surfaces. I'l go over the frame and paint over any scratches I find. I'll also paint the alloy rim from methods, as The Longjohn Workbikes traditionally sport an all-black finish.

Behold. The first coat O' black.

[Cargo_Tom]

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72v20ah Ping pack arrived today Had to pony up $450 in customs on top of the $1400 sales price, but I trust/hope that it is money well spent regardless

Stuff to do:
- Wait for the stripped down bike to return from LBS later this week. (drivetrain overhaul)
- Add flightcase fittings to cargo box, fabricate lockable "hood".
- Install motor wheel with dual torque arms.
- Hook up CA, Analogger, Controller, throttle, regen and LED lights.
- Make an adapter to go between the 45a powerpoles and the SB50 battery connectors.
- R_Shunt calibration (2.26mOhm)
- Charge the battery packs.
- Plan adaptor plates welded to front fork for fitting dual torque arms and disk brake caliper, research laser cutters.
- Plan diy pedelec system (including how to disable it for "offroad" application)
- Test ride with current limited to 5, 10, 15, 20 etc amps.

- Start planning next project.

Cheers
-Tom

[Cargo_Tom]

Nothing much to report except that I'll be needing to do some wire splicing work to get everything to the desired cable lengths.

The basic component layout is pictured below:

Lockable front compartment will hold:
- 72v20Ah Ping
- Chargers for same
- 40A ebikes.ca controller (will heat be an issue @ 2kw ?)
- cycle analogger
- Front ebikes.ca LED light underslung at the front.
- Motor directly underneath
--> I will want to shorten up the wires here.

External stuff:
- CA/throttle/regen on handlebars
- Rear ebikes.ca LED light on the rear rack anchor plate
--> The wires here will need to be looooooooong

My biggest worry is thermal issues with the controller. Id prefer to keep it inside the box for weather resistance, and keeping the on-off button under lock and key. I could install a fan next to it for some internal air circulation, or even cut a vent hole in the dividing wall of the box.

Alternately I could Mount it on the slope behind the wheel where there will be LOTS of airflow. It will be less tidy that way, require some wire rerouting and I'd need to move the on/off switch inside the compartment, or to an ignition switch on the handle bars.

Decisions, decisions.

[dogman]

Desert dog that I am, I'd mount it where the wind blows on the controller. But try to have all the plugs inside the box, or seal em. Seal the controller seams if you need it, with gutter caulking.

[Cargo_Tom]

First test ride today limited to 25A and 25kph
-> Hills no longer exist
-> Headwinds no longer exist
-> 700 lbs Hauling capacity checks out as long as I pedal along
-> 35 mi range (my commute is 10 mi total)
-> refuelling costs about a dime

Awww Yeeah!

The simulator estimation turned out to be very conservative

Edit: The build isnt finished yet as there is still some loose ends, but Damn this is FUN!

[jkbrigman]

First test ride today limited to 25A and 25kph
-> Hills no longer exist
-> Headwinds no longer exist
-> 700 lbs Hauling capacity checks out as long as I pedal along
-> 35 mi range (my commute is 10 mi total)
-> refuelling costs about a dime

Awww Yeeah!

The simulator estimation turned out to be very conservative

Edit: The build isnt finished yet as there is still some loose ends, but Damn this is FUN!

Congrats, CT! What you are finding is consistent with what I was trying to say in my earlier post - that these motors do a great job if you are willing/able to drive them slower. Your range seems proportional to what I'm getting as well - I can do 32 miles (330lbs all-up weight) on 18S15Ah with estimated 30% charge left.

Have you done any recharging of the packs yet, and are you able to measure how much energy you use to charge?

I get the vibe that your bike is REALLY going to be a daily driver - that you'll be putting many, many miles on that bike over the course of a year?

CONGRATULATIONS MAN! It's an incredible feeling you'll never forget....it's like...revelation or something....

JKB

[Cargo_Tom]

With my chargers toasted I don't get to joyride as much as I'd like. I have a GPS analogger that I have yet to install, so I hope to gets lots of yummy electrical data to share later on.

With the nice weather I might as well snap a WIP pic, eh

[teklektik]

Very neat! I love the clever use of the equipment case corners - great idea!

I have a GPS analogger that I have yet to install, so I hope to gets lots of yummy electrical data to share later on.

The Analogger is very cool and can give some interesting insights into bike performance over the trip. As the manual calls out though, it's far less weather-worthy than the CA. Here's an approach that has worked out well. It takes just seconds to pull the unit off the bike and I just plug the whole thing in via USB instead of fiddling with the little memory card. You have the advantage of the big weatherproof batt/ctrlr box up front, so the separate small handlebar enclosure may not be needed.

A handlebar Analogger power switch external to the weatherproof housing is a big plus so you can easily start a new data file on the fly to capture a particular hill, flat, or other predetermined test run w/o trying to pick the data out of a running data stream. Starting a fresh file also helps ensure that 'interesting' data is not broken across two files. This is a big time saver and well worth the effort.

You have a pretty atypical situation and some real world data would be welcome.

[dnmun]

did your chargers have the 240/115V selector switch? what is the model number for your kingpan chargers?

i wonder if the input capacitors may also have shorted out but it shoulda blown the fuse in the charger first. except it is 10A.

since the big switching transistors did not work, did you consider trying again with the smaller transistors, the TO-220 size? i saw the insulating layer for the big ones on an ebay site this morning, and wondered if that woulda made any difference.

[Cargo_Tom]

I get the vibe that your bike is REALLY going to be a daily driver - that you'll be putting many, many miles on that bike over the course of a year?
JKB

I'm working towards being car-free within the city limits. Time will tell If winter proves too much to overcome. (eFatbike longtail winter commuter anyone?)

A handlebar Analogger power switch external to the weatherproof housing is a big plus so you can easily start a new data file on the fly to capture a particular hill, flat, or other predetermined test run w/o trying to pick the data out of a running data stream. Starting a fresh file also helps ensure that 'interesting' data is not broken across two files. This is a big time saver and well worth the effort.

Great idea It shall be done!

did your chargers have the 240/115V selector switch?

No Sir

what is the model number for your kingpan chargers?

I thought I had taken a photo of it, but that turns out to be Kingpans fax number I'll have to get back to you on that.

did you consider trying again with the smaller transistors, the TO-220 size? i saw the insulating layer for the big ones on an ebay site this morning, and wondered if that woulda made any difference.

We installed new isolator pads appropriate to the larger transistors. All transistors were then checked against gnd with a multimeter before powerup to ensure correct installation. Apart from the being larger and able to handle 130w I was told that the transistors should be identical, so there should be no need to switch back. Other components must also have become damaged. I want to pursue further repairs eventually, but with the German charger arriving tomorrow I reckon I will wait until I have developed circuit analysis skills of my own.

I'll Also be hacking off the XLR charge cables for use on zee german maschine tomorrow.

[dnmun]

i got a buncha used kingpan chargers since then. i have been taking them apart to repair them and i noticed on some of them they have a device attached to the lid with some red wires and a black wire running down to the place where the input wires enter.

i think it is some kinda automatic switch that detects whether the input voltage is 120 or 240 and then it makes the connection inside the little device instead of a switch. so i wondered if you had something similar and it follows with a certain model number.

so that got me thinking you might have something similar and the voltages are leaking in that device onto the rectifier bridge so that the transistors are getting even more than the 700V they are able to cope with, which would cause them to break. i am not sure that is what happened, but i am now thinking about how your charger failed and how these all seem to work. but i am on 120, not 240 like you.

[Cargo_Tom]

The plot thickens It seems my woes are not quite over.

1) The german charger has restored each precious Ping battery to a happy 45.2v HoC - Bms and batts are fine. Yay.
2) I unplug the charger, hook everything back up, turn on the controller and everything seems in order. Aw yeah.
3) Straddle the beast grip the throttle aaaand....*numerous expletives*.

Having only read about it I cant be sure, but I think I have cogging. Unplug motor leads and the cogging stops.

It seems my charger mishap hmay damaged the controller?

I have the modified 40A Infinions from justin. Searching old threads have landed this thread as a place to start for mosfet diagnostics: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19645

Am I correct in assuming that These mosfets would be the correct ones to get? Will a batch of ten be likely to suffice, seeing as it is a 12 fet system?

Cheers
-Tom

[hjns]

Those look like correct IRFB4110 FETs, but don't take my word for it. Ask some of the controller gurus here.

I just read your whole thread. Very nice build!
Instead of replacing the FETs, you can also consider getting a larger controller and a cromotor. You will then be able to do 10% hills with 25kmh at 74V. An 18FET or 24FET controller would be best to handle the +65A currents.

[Cargo_Tom]

There will be a cromotor in my future... but on another bike

My test rides proved to me that the 9c performs amicably in a 20" wheel with 80+ volts and a mere 30 amps. Controller and motor barely got warm to the touch after 15 miles of aggressive riding. Pedalling along I can even do the big incline comfortably as long as I am not at max cargo load. I never saw numbers above 2k watts for more than 2-3 seconds at a time. Riding on straights give me 0.5-0.8kW and about double that on most inclines.

20-25 kph is about the fastest I can go without sticking out like a sore thumb. Bear in mind that this is bike country and the bike paths on which I commute are to be shared with lots of fellow cyclists.

Buying 12 new FETS will run me almost a third of the cost of a replacement controller. That is fine IF replacing the FETs will cure my problems. If not I'll be springing for a new controller anyway. Decisions, decisions