CUTE geared hub motors from bmsbattery/ecitypower

[Russell]

yeah - bring on the photos!

They do indeed look like Ananda motors - see http://www.ananda.com.cn/anandaenglish/product_list.asp?id=321 and similar link for the larger motor.

Some observations:

1. It seems that they have bolt on side plates rather than those annoying screw on type (?)
2. (note for Russell) The cables look like they may exit the non-drive side on the rear motor?
3. The prices get cheaper as they get more powerful?
4. wow these things are light

Indeed they do. I believe I'll pick up a rear motor if I can find out the RPM numbers for the various models.

-R

[lynchy]

as far as i know the no load rpm ranges between just over 200rpm and about 290rpm for both 24 and 36V models. i was told there is a 9:1 gear ratio but not sure which of the ratios that applies to. they only use 2 windings, a 24 and a 36V, so i assume they use 2 to 3 gear ratios. i've used a 36V 26" rim type at 48V for a few days and it held up fine but did get a bit hot, don't know how suited it is to overvoltage but it definitely improved the pickup. not yet used the 24V motor but have some here to test soon.

they also do a very neat little controller. good luck trying to find out detailed information though. i've been in direct contact with the factory for months and getting info out of them is like pulling teeth.

[lynchy]

and by the way, be careful when ordering a rear motor. mine arrived with an axle for dropouts of 155mm spacing. so make sure to specify exactly what is required.

[marshy]

i'm in the process of putting together some ebikes for retail in europe and checking what i want to be selling as kits in the future. not interested in selling junk that i don't know nothing about. i live in shanghai, so that makes things a bit easier for sourcing parts.

excellent. Well, I'm sure you have a keen team of independent testers here.

Just wondering if you've tested any Bafangs, and if so drawn any comparisons, e.g. on noise levels, performance, even quality of gears?

[lynchy]

i'm awaiting some bafangs at the moment but have briefly tried 1. the bafangs are quieter, well at least the model that i used. at the EU legal limit the performance on the flat was pretty much the same. i've also used another geared hub motor, very similar in size to the Ananda and it had pretty much exactly the same level/type of noise and performance.

not so loud but is audible on acceleration. my feeling is that the noise is unavoidable due to the gears becoming so small and the cogs have to retain a certain depth for strength. the bafang is small but not as small as these. they are very wide so the standard type is not suited to disk and will not fit in all forks. i've just been supplied a 24V front motor with disk fittings that is narrower, but i've got a feeling it might be lower powered. still got lots of work and testing to do in the next few months/years....

i'd be happy to get some independent testers onboard but it'll be a couple of months before there'll be something to see. happy to show stuff as it progresses if it doesn't cause any problems. i've also been thinking about dual motors, maybe overvoltage too, but more of a plaything for myself than to sell as EU law is very restrictive. i'm also very keen to hear what people feel they want in an e bike.

[Russell]

as far as i know the no load rpm ranges between just over 200rpm and about 290rpm for both 24 and 36V models.

I would need to have that narrowed down a bit before I would buy one. For example my 36V 250W Bafang QSWXB runs at 6.4 rpm/V or 230 rpm at a nominal 36V and my 24V 250W GoldenMotor Mini (looks like a Bafang QSWXH) runs at 9.1 rpm/V or 218 rpm at a nominal 24V.

I emailed ecitypower again requesting the information

-R

[mwkeefer]

I would also be interested in the specifications on the cute motors... which gearings are they available at or which RPM at 24 or 36v are they available for... final kV for the models no-load/load would also be useful. Ive tried to get this info but they are vague... perhaps since you have already ordered a bunch they will be more accomidating for your requests.

Never did get to order that "Puma" motor for testing... they changed stock before I could, these new ones look interesting (maybe) especially for the price. Depending on the current they can handle a pair of HV85's could likely run 2 of them sensorless, so 2 of the 500w rated (1 front, 1 rear) would be useful... though after looking at others dual hub experience, it seems that lowering the front power helps alot with traction when you don't have a variable control system. This could be useful!

There look to be issues tying 2 infineon style controllers to 2 motors and using the same power source, I am about to head down this road with dual 9c on the specialized but I am ready to run dual power sources if needed.

Anxiously awaiting some more info... my intened first build would be a single or dual motor caynne rambler (after a repaint, hate the oxblood) folding bike, 20" though I am beginning to look at 16" bikes, I had a nice ride the other day on one... I need to be able to sustain 20mph so 20 * 336 / 20 = 336 RPM minimum under load (if for 36v then that would be for LVC of 32v - lipo 3.2v) so actual nominal RPM required under load would be: 10.5 kV or RPM per volt capable of 36v nominal.

Thanks!

Mike

[Papa]

Unless someone has seen the innards first-hand, I'm skeptical they'd opt for different gearing within a specified housing diameter. They'd not only need to manufacture different sun and planet gears, but also alter the planet's shaft locations - which on the GM Mini, is also the one-way clutch.

[Drunkskunk]

Well Ain't those Cute.

So anyone know the diameter of these yet?
I might have to pick one up. I was already considering one of there 36V lifePO4 just to experiment with.

[Russell]

Well Ain't those Cute.

So anyone know the diameter of these yet?
I might have to pick one up. I was already considering one of there 36V lifePO4 just to experiment with.

The babies are 108mm and the "big" ones are 128mm according to the bmsbattery/ecitypower sites (1.6-3Kg). Doing a quick check on my QSWXB Bafang (3.2Kg) gives 143mm and my GM Mini (2.6Kg) is about 134mm in diameter.

-R

[GrayKard]

I've been looking for a small and light motor to do a 2wd DH bike conversion. I think these would be perfect so I bought two.

I purchased one Q-F-128SX front motor which is the 350/500 watt 36/48 volt version, and one Q-R-128SX rear motor same wattage and voltage. I made sure to include detailed comments so I get the right fit but will have to cross my fingers until they arrive.

I'll start a long and detailed build thread on this project in a day or two. Note: it may take a while to complete as I will be learning a lot as I go, like how to build a wheel, etc...

Gary

[Papa]

lynchy,

After pondering these 'Cuties', I'm interested. But, I need to know which hub has both the 6 screw access cover and is drilled and tapped for disc brake rotors. So is it the 108mm units or the 128mm.... front or rear?

[Drunkskunk]

108mm, 128mm, either way would work out great. I'm hoping to build a folder this winter, and Dahon makes a 20 pound model that work out great.

the only question is how strong are the gears?

[lynchy]

I hope the pics come out ok. I have a few different versions of the Ananda motor. The motor mounted in the rim is a 36V, 26" rim type. Also have some 24V motors; a front 20" rim without disk (high speed gear ~290rpm), front 26" with disk and a rear 26" with disk. I'm still waiting on test equipment and a cycle computer so can't give you definitive answer for the RPM but hopefully soon.

The front motor with disk is narrower than without disk as you should be able to see in the pic, but the same diameter. They are all 108 between spoke centres. The 128 motor is supposed to be not as good performance as the 108 plus it's cheaper and I'm not sure if it's geared. I don't have any 128 motors. The 108 motor has different gear ratios for the diferent rim size. At least 2 and maybe 3 different ratios. I've asked but can never get an answer as to how many ratios are available and what the max rpm of each is.

Regarding power, I've been told that they only use 1 winding which is 250W nominal which is 400W max power. I don't believe they do anything as high as 500W. As far as I understand they supply these primarily for Europe. However the sales guy in Ananda is particularly unhelpful and doesn't seem to have a very good grasp on either bicycles or his companies products, so who knows. The rear motor that just arrived requires 155mm drop out spacing, so that's no use to anyone. Even though their products seem pretty good, I'm pretty much at a point where I can't deal with their sales man any more, so Bafang will likely be getting my business, but who know, time and some more testing will tell.

By the way, what are they charging for these?

[danoulz]

Here's another Ananda-based hub motor kit (note the crankset / chainring torque sensor, shameless plug for those interested in this particular aspect: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electri ... #post62512 ):

http://www.e-bicycles.eu/en/index.html

[philf]

The 155mm rear option is a real pain. Even if you have a steel frame bike you can bend, you'll find it doesn't work well anyways - the chainline won't allow you to get down to the smaller cogs on the freewheel without the chain wanting to come off the front chainrings, and the spacing sux - you can't get more than a 5-speed freewheel on there without spreading the dropouts even more.

I "machined" (read that, "hacked off") the threaded collar off my rear GM mini (which was also for a 155mm dropout) that was intended for a threaded disc adapter, moved some of the spacers around, and then dished the wheel. I was able to get it to fit into 139mm with a 6-speed cassette (which has a 9 tooth cog on it!). It was a nuisance, but the only way to make the thing work reasonably.

Anyone else notice the picture of the wheel posted above? 3-cross lacing pattern - which might be a *bit* extreme for that diameter of hub to begin with - but whoever laced it started in the wrong place. Check out the location of the valve stem. I notice these things...

[lynchy]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort as I gave up getting a local bike shop to do it for me, and without anything other than a spoke wrench and screwdriver. I tried to find suitable spokes for a 2 cross but could only get hold of 245mm spokes over here at short notice. Will try to get my hands on some appropriate spokes for a 2 cross pattern. I did follow Sheldon Browns instructions but must have got my left/right handed rim, drive/non drive, leading/trailing or whatever mixed up somehow....

I think I kind of caused the issue with the wide rear motor as I did ask for a rear motor with disk and 6/7 speed freewheel, if it was possible. I suppose I should have also stated that I required it to also fit into a bike I'm sure if the threaded section for the disk were removed and it was fitted to a corrctly machined axle it should fit ok into a standard dropout. I'll see if I can persuade them to take some more of my money to give me a motor that actually fits this time. They also do a narrower motor with the same diameter which was supplied for front with disk (in the previous pics), but haven't got round to testing it yet but suspect it might be lower powered.

I have used a 36V front motor at 48V and it pulled ok but it was noticeable that it seemed to heat up quite quickly and the power seemed to drop off as the resistance of the windings increased with the heat build up, but still maintained a reasonable speed on the flat. Once I've got a workable rear I'll do an all wheel drive with a pair of these and the Ananda controllers which are also very compact or a dual motor controller. I'll also be looking into getting some stronger gears made up for these and some other motors I'm using, but that's some way off yet.

[philf]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort ...

Hahaha... and a good first effort it is . I did exactly the same thing before I realized that it mattered where you start. If you find shorter spokes and go with a 2-cross pattern, a slightly wonky pattern around the valve is unavoidable, you'll discover...

I'm anal about putting the brand label on the tire next to the valve stem, too. I dunno why.

[Drunkskunk]

So anyone know if the cute little motor's controller is worth using?
Anyone tried the battery yet?
I've got a bike all picked out to mount one or two of these in.

[Russell]

So anyone know if the cute little motor's controller is worth using?
Anyone tried the battery yet?
I've got a bike all picked out to mount one or two of these in.

Here are reviews of two of the controllers ecitypower/bmsbattery sell, they are essentially identical except for FET count/power rating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13691

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13659

-R

[Drunkskunk]

lynchy, or anyone who knows. I see a QX85 and a QX100 version of the 108mm motors, for both front and rear, disc and no disc. The main diffrence seems to be the weight, a pound less for the QX85. top wattage is 100 more for the QX100

But is the gearing bigger or stronger for the QX100, or are they the same?

[lynchy]

If you look at the pics I posted previously you can see 1 of the motors is narrower than the others. I'd assume that is the QX85 that allows a disk to be bolted on directly to the motor. I've just laced a 24V front motor with disk into a wheel, QX85. Will try to get around to running it soon. I'm concerned that it is lower powered than the bigger QX100 motor, but I don't have the same Voltage motors with both QX85 and QX100, so will be difficult to determine.

I've asked the question to the manufacturer but either the sales guy doesn't know what he's selling, thinks I'm not important enough to waste his time responding to or is scared of letting out some big company secrets Very frustrating when you need to order 5 pieces minimum to get sample and they don't clearly explain what is available or what exactly they will be sending you. Plus the fact it takes weeks for the sample to arrive. I've now ordered 10 pieces of these motors and controllers, the 1st 5 pieces arrived as 36V when I had requested 24V and ordered 5 pieces of 24V packs to match

If you can give me some pointers on how the hell I can get the side panel off these motors I'll have a look inside and forward some pics. They are very well bonded together.

I'm not down on the motors, just the little sh!t I have to deal with If you don't like answering questions about your product and don't understand the technology, get another job

[lynchy]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort ...

Hahaha... and a good first effort it is . I did exactly the same thing before I realized that it mattered where you start. If you find shorter spokes and go with a 2-cross pattern, a slightly wonky pattern around the valve is unavoidable, you'll discover...

I'm anal about putting the brand label on the tire next to the valve stem, too. I dunno why.

I've worked out where I was going wrong now. I was starting in the right place, but when I goth to the 2nd stage where you fit the trailing, non gear spokes, I was fitting them behind, rather than in front of the trailing gear side..... If that makes sense

Anyway, the spokes now look great but the rim looks like an egg and moves about an inch side to side Don't worry, I'm not a quitter, I'll get there in the end

[fechter]

Generally speaking, you can't run two brushless motors off a single controller, senorless or not. I think you would need two controllers. You should be able to run two controllers off a single throttle.

[Drunkskunk]

I've got an email in to BMSbattery.
they offer the motors with diffrent wheel sizes and configurations for disk brakes or no disk brakes, but the order form doesn't let you specify.

we'll see what they say.

Plans right now are to stick a Cute QS100RX in the back, and the 85FX in the front of a folding bike. making a Cute 600 watt bike for less than the weight of a 500 watt 9C. I figure the 6 fet controllers will be all I need for each motor.

But that all depends on if BMSbattery can supply the 20" disk brake compatable motors I need.
If they can't let me specify, I may risk it and order just 1 rear Cute motor.

if this works out, I'm going to be stuck telling people that I have a cute little bike with Cute little motors in it.