2 wheel drive DH bike build (Delta/Wye Upgrade)

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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Drunkskunk » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:07 am

Same reason I started my project with these cute little motors. Its not energy efficent to run 2. you're doubling your parasitic losses, BUT you're gaining extra traction and balancing the weight, plus the cool factor.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby lynchy » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:08 am

Graycard, I put some pics of the insides of the 108 motors on the cute thread. By the way the front 108 motor with disk is only 2.05kg. The rear that I have here with the very long axle and which is the wider 100mm type is just under 2.4kg. Both these are disk compatible.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby will_newton » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:14 pm

Russell wrote:Then compare the dual eZee's to a single X5305 at 36V/40A/26" which produces 52.5 lbs of thrust at 0mph and just 18 lbs at 15mph.
that may not be the best comparison since most folks would choose a higher KV motor than the 5305 to run at such a low voltage, such as a 5302 or 5303. 5305 is wound for high voltages, such as 72 volts, so performance at low voltage is not so good @36v. A 5305 on 36v is like having a V-8 that runs on 4 cylinders.

...but I get your point. :)
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:44 pm

The simulator at ebikes.ca doesn't have any geared motors smaller than an eZee but I still find it useful to use the eZee as a stand-in for one of my 250W motors keeping in mind that I need to adjust the results down by perhaps 20%. Anyway if you pit two eZee geared motors running at 20A against any other single motor running at 40A the dual motors comes out on top by a good margin. For example dual eZee's at 36V/20A/26" will produce a combined thrust at 0mph of 90 pounds and at 15mph it's 36 pounds. Compare that against the BMC V2-T at 36V/40A/26" which generates 78 lbs of thrust at 0mph and 24 lbs at 15mph. Top speed of both set-ups would be 21-22 mph. Then compare the dual eZee's to a single X5305 at 36V/40A/26" which produces 52.5 lbs of thrust at 0mph and just 18 lbs at 15mph. Of course dual Cute's or Bafangs won't be quite as strong as the dual eZee's but you can pick up two of Cutes or Bafangs for less than the price of a single eZee motor.


That's another thing I was thinking that 2 wheel drive might provide but didn't include in my reply as I haven't seen any real world head to head tests to confirm it. Will they really give more thrust at a given wattage? Will they be more efficient with less load on each motor? Less heat buildup?

I will try to gather as much data as a can to see if we can spot a trend. It will be nice if there are other pluses to going this route.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:52 pm

dogman wrote:I really really like front hubs on the street though, since you can power through a corner with both wheels grabbing traction. My town has just about all the wheelchair ramps done on the sidewalks, so I don't need to pop over curbs any.


I'm really looking forward to that part. Being able to power through a corner and maybe doing some controlled skidding :shock:

I'm still going to be jumping up and down curbs so I hope these little babies are up to it. I'll keep the speeds low to start with in case I snap an axle. I can't wait to try it off road too!
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby dogman dan » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:24 am

I'm liking the lack of any skidding when I blast a corner with both wheels grabbing. But I know what you mean, when I was young, I'd go out on a rainy day looking for painted stripes on crosswalks for the slide. :twisted:

Out in the dirt, I find the 2wd really helpfull in the soft stuff, sand or loose dirt. One wheel may spin in the sand hole, but if the other wheel grabs you keep going. I have the fusin front hub, but with more battery, I do think about a dual drive, maybe 9c on the back. I'd want independent throttle controll of both motors. It would get so heavy though, ya might end up doing the lipoly backpack to carry some of the battery.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:14 am

Ordered a few more parts for the build.

I have a 6 and 8 speed freewheel, and a thumb and twist throttle coming from Cycle9.

I figured if I can't make the 8 speed fit I will go with a wide range 6 speed so I still have my granny low gear. I will use a twist throttle if I can go with my current indexed shifter and 8 speed. But if only the 6 speed fits I will have to get a 6 speed shifter and the only one I've found that I like is a grip shift version. So that means a thumb throttle.

From Jenson USA I purchased new chainrings to replace the cheapo ones that came on the bike. I also ordered some brake pads and a set of rotors from them.

On the chainrings the originals are 22t, 32t, 42t. I'm replacing them with 22t, 34t, 48t. That should give me a better top end with the new 6 or 8 speed that both have a 14t small. The current freehub on the bike has an 11t small. The extra rotors are an upgrade from what I have plus I can leave the non motor wheels intact for backups.

Still have lots to order.

Torque arms, battery, charger, brake levers with cutoff switches, freewheel spacers, freewheel removal tool, and maybe a 6 speed shifter. I know where I'm going to order most of this stuff I just need to sit down and do it.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Russell » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:02 pm

will_newton wrote:
Russell wrote:Then compare the dual eZee's to a single X5305 at 36V/40A/26" which produces 52.5 lbs of thrust at 0mph and just 18 lbs at 15mph.
that may not be the best comparison since most folks would choose a higher KV motor than the 5305 to run at such a low voltage, such as a 5302 or 5303. 5305 is wound for high voltages, such as 72 volts, so performance at low voltage is not so good @36v. A 5305 on 36v is like having a V-8 that runs on 4 cylinders.

...but I get your point. :)


I chose the X5305 to make the comparison as even as possible selecting motors that had top speeds in the same range, 21-22 for the eZee and BMC V2-T and about 19 mph for the X5303. The next step up, the X5304, might have been a better choice with a top speed of about 23mph at 36V/40A/26". The X5304 would generate lower torque at 0mph (51 lbs) than the X5305 but more at 15mph (29 lbs) but again these would be less than the dual eZee's at 36V/20A/26" at 90 lbs and 36lbs respectively. The comparison was an exercise showing the low speed thrust which can be achieved using two smaller geared motors compared to a single motor while keeping the voltage and total current the same, I was not suggesting someone would necessarily want to build an X5/36V system.

-R
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:04 pm

The stuff from Cycle9 came in yesterday. I ordered on the 21st. Got an email updating the status as shipped on the 22nd, which was a Sunday. Then received it Wednesday morning the 25th.

Great service, and it was the free shipping, as the order was over $50 dollars. The items were well packed so they arrived in perfect condition. They are also great about answering emails promptly.

Now if I could just get my motors and controllers from BMSbattery. They still haven't shipped. :cry:
They have been good with communication though so I'm not worried, just getting a bit impatient. I'm even considering getting one of their batteries...
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:34 pm

Ordered rims and some fenders.

The rims are Alex TD17 26" 36 hole disc only. They are designed to help prevent pinch flats but I have no idea if they really do. They look pretty strong so I hope they will hold up to my abuse. $21.20 each from Niagara Cycle Works.

The fenders are Topeak Defenders M1 and M2. The reviews say they won't hold up to off road use which is OK as I just need them on the street when it rains. They can be put on and taken off quickly without tools. The down side is they may not even hold up to curb hopping without reinforcement. Also ordered from Niagara.

Still waiting on my motors and controllers which still have not shipped. :shock: My patience is about gone with BMSbattery at this point. Not only due to this delay but also due the fact that I was asking questions about their batteries and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. They then quoted a price that was $72.00 more than what the pack was selling for on the website...

I'm almost ready to cancel the order and get a couple of GM mini motors instead.

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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby grandmasterE » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:45 pm

Any updates?
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Qwiksand » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:42 am

I hope you have better luck with your frame than I did, they're notorious for this:

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Documented here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14788
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:06 pm

grandmasterE wrote:Any updates?

Yeah! My motors and controllers finally came in today. What a wait.

I'm doing some test fitting and will post the results soon but it looks good. :D

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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:10 pm

Qwiksand wrote:I hope you have better luck with your frame than I did, they're notorious for this:

Documented here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14788

Yikes. I hope my frame holds up better. I have just under 1,800 miles on it and no cracking yet. Thanks for the heads up on this problem.

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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby dogman dan » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:27 am

longer seatpost would tend to reinforce that area. It looks to me like where the seatpost ends inside the tube. If further down, a second, cut off section of seatpost could reinforce the area from inside some.
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum

See battery technology section, FAQ thread at the top of the page for lipo noob info.

See the frankenbike longtail at the thread below.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28389&hilit=bouncing+betty
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:48 pm

dogman wrote:longer seatpost would tend to reinforce that area. It looks to me like where the seatpost ends inside the tube. If further down, a second, cut off section of seatpost could reinforce the area from inside some.


Looking at it again it does appear that it cracked where the bottom of the seatpost would be. If the shock had done it I would think the crack would be on the other side of the down tube.

Maybe being aware of the problem and never doing drop offs without most my weight on the pedals will make this less likely to occur. I will be using a much lighter setup and I only weight 135 pounds so the stress should be a lot less on the frame.

I think I will also look around and see if I can find a seat tube that will almost bottom out in the down tube to reinforce this area. Couldn't hurt.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby TylerDurden » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:45 pm

On retrospect, an internal post may not resolve the cracking. That is not a torque fracture. It appears to be pulling the bracket right out of the tube.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Qwiksand » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:51 am

TylerDurden wrote:On retrospect, an internal post may not resolve the cracking. That is not a torque fracture. It appears to be pulling the bracket right out of the tube.


I think you're on the mark here, TD. The crack is at a high-stress point just below the seat tube shock mount, a good 12" below where the seatpost ends.

It seems that most of these failures happen on large (20") frames with riders in the over 200# category, so even fully built with a crap-ton of batts, GK should still be under that weight load. With camelback and gear, I weigh in around 210-215- I put alot of miles on this frame at that weight with rear shock pressure set around 110-120 psi. I think my increasing the rear shock psi to 160 coupled with the increased weight on both sides of the shock assembly fulcrum (heavier rear wheel and heavier triangle/rider) caused my failure.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:23 pm

Qwiksand wrote:
TylerDurden wrote:On retrospect, an internal post may not resolve the cracking. That is not a torque fracture. It appears to be pulling the bracket right out of the tube.


I think you're on the mark here, TD. The crack is at a high-stress point just below the seat tube shock mount, a good 12" below where the seatpost ends.

It seems that most of these failures happen on large (20") frames with riders in the over 200# category, so even fully built with a crap-ton of batts, GK should still be under that weight load. With camelback and gear, I weigh in around 210-215- I put alot of miles on this frame at that weight with rear shock pressure set around 110-120 psi. I think my increasing the rear shock psi to 160 coupled with the increased weight on both sides of the shock assembly fulcrum (heavier rear wheel and heavier triangle/rider) caused my failure.


Is it possible that the rear suspension also bottomed out at some point causing a huge spike in the pressure on that area? Or did the higher air pressure you put in the shock prevent that?

The fact that you put a lot of miles at a bit over 200 pounds with no problem does encourage me as even with my batteries and my usual gear I will be at about 170 pounds. The bike should come it at about 45 as I dumped the rear rack which was nothing but a headache.

Gary
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:22 pm

The test fitting of the motors looks good. Here's the front motor in:

Front motor fit.jpg
Front motor fit.jpg (140.6 KiB) Viewed 720 times

Had to remove the paint inside the dropouts for it to slip in. I will also have to file a little to get the curve to match the axle and go all the way down.

Width was a perfect except the inside washers aren't on yet. I will have to spread the dropouts to get those in. I will be adding torque arms once the fit is right.

Now the rear motor:

Rear motor fit.jpg
Rear motor fit.jpg (163.34 KiB) Viewed 658 times

This one dropped in without any tweaking. Yes that's an 8 speed freewheel in there. It will have the same spacing as the freehub once the washers are on. Same as the front the width was right on without washers. Very little spreading will be necessary to make it work.

I will need to radius the drop out to get it seat all the way but it's a much better fit than the front so won't need much persuasion. Torque arms here too.

Brake rotor fit is not bad. The front appears to line up but the rear will need some work. I will need to take off a bit of material from the rear bracket to move it out of the path of the rotor. But overall a pretty darn good fit.

The thing I was worried about the most, gearing, was no problem at all. But the dropout shape I thought looked to be easy will actually take a lot of precise filing to get the snug fit it needs. I'm a perfectionist with details like that though so it will get done right, just will take some time.

I also finally decided on and ordered batteries.

48 Volt 12 AH.jpg
48 Volt 12 AH.jpg (53.23 KiB) Viewed 1451 times

Two shrink tube 48 volt 12 amp hour packs from BMSbattery. Was more expensive than the bike due to the $156.00 shipping charge. :roll:
Last edited by GrayKard on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Russell » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:55 pm

Very cool :)

So those are the largest and most powerful (48V/500W) versions of the Cute motors bmsbattery/ecitypower offer right? Any idea how fast they are supposed to spin at 48V?


-R
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby GrayKard » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:32 pm

Russell wrote:Very cool :)

So those are the largest and most powerful (48V/500W) versions of the Cute motors bmsbattery/ecitypower offer right? Any idea how fast they are supposed to spin at 48V?


-R


Thanks for the reminder that I need to edit the first post in the thread.

No, these are the smaller 108mm diameter motors. 48 volt 350 watts. I had to switch to these because after exchanging lots of emails with Rainbow at ecitypower it turns out that the 128mm diameter motors won't even fit a 6 speed freewheel without spreading the dropouts according to them.

Sorry, I don't have the rpm info on either size motor, although I seem to remember lynchy posting something about rpm on the Ananda motors in the Cute motor thread you started. My memory might be faulty though.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Qwiksand » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:55 am

GrayKard wrote:
Is it possible that the rear suspension also bottomed out at some point causing a huge spike in the pressure on that area? Or did the higher air pressure you put in the shock prevent that?

The fact that you put a lot of miles at a bit over 200 pounds with no problem does encourage me as even with my batteries and my usual gear I will be at about 170 pounds. The bike should come it at about 45 as I dumped the rear rack which was nothing but a headache.

Gary


The rear did not bottom out during the ride of death- the rubber o-ring marker shows the lowest travel point in my other pictures. That's not to say I've never bottomed this frame/shock before (several times actually), but not on it's last ride.

I can't wait to see your Iggy built up, I think you've got the right idea with smaller/lighter dual motors for weight balance. I tried a couple iterations of rear rack battery set-ups on another rig and was never happy with the balance either. Where are your batts going?
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby Mark_A_W » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:20 pm

GrayKard wrote:The test fitting of the motors looks good. Here's the front motor in:

Front motor fit.jpg

Had to remove the paint inside the dropouts for it to slip in. I will also have to file a little to get the curve to match the axle and go all the way down.

Width was a perfect except the inside washers aren't on yet. I will have to spread the dropouts to get those in. I will be adding torque arms once the fit is right.

Now the rear motor:

Rear motor fit.jpg

This one dropped in without any tweaking. Yes that's an 8 speed freewheel in there. It will have the same spacing as the freehub once the washers are on. Same as the front the width was right on without washers. Very little spreading will be necessary to make it work.

I will need to radius the drop out to get it seat all the way but it's a much better fit than the front so won't need much persuasion. Torque arms here too.

Brake rotor fit is not bad. The front appears to line up but the rear will need some work. I will need to take off a bit of material from the rear bracket to move it out of the path of the rotor. But overall a pretty darn good fit.

The thing I was worried about the most, gearing, was no problem at all. But the dropout shape I thought looked to be easy will actually take a lot of precise filing to get the snug fit it needs. I'm a perfectionist with details like that though so it will get done right, just will take some time.

I also finally decided on and ordered batteries.

48 Volt 12 AH.jpg

Two shrink tube 48 volt 12 amp hour packs from BMSbattery. Was more expensive than the bike due to the $156.00 shipping charge. :roll:



Don't spread your dropouts for those washers, file the washers down.


And I fear you will encounter severe wheel-dish issues with such a big cassette, and the motor is not well designed for a big cassette - the spoke rim is far away from the edge of the motor.
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Re: 2 wheel drive DH bike build

Postby voicecoils » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:34 pm

Mark_A_W wrote:And I fear you will encounter severe wheel-dish issues with such a big cassette, and the motor is not well designed for a big cassette - the spoke rim is far away from the edge of the motor.


Image

Yeah, not looking good. I can't see the full swingarm from that photo but it looks like, at best, you'd end up with totally vertical drive side spokes and much longer non-driveside spokes.

Here's hoping you can figure out a solution!
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