2 wheel drive DH bike build (Delta/Wye Upgrade)

[Whiplash]

Hey great build! You have any finished pics of the bike? I would like to see the arrangement! Also a vid of the bike in action from a distance rather than on the bike would be cool to see the speed it gets and climbing ability more easily, great build though!

[GrayKard]

Hey great build! You have any finished pics of the bike? I would like to see the arrangement! Also a vid of the bike in action from a distance rather than on the bike would be cool to see the speed it gets and climbing ability more easily, great build though!

Thanks, glad you like the build.

I'm just going to tease you with a little before and after picture. I will take some better pics later and I plan on doing some more videos as soon as I get my editing computer back up. I hate the way YouTube destroys the quality so I need to cut them down before uploading.

Ibex-BeforeAndAfter.gif (279.78 KiB) Viewed 339 times

I'll be doing a 2000 mile update pretty soon but I'm going to wait until I get my Lyen 6fet controllers so I have something to talk about.

[Whiplash]

NICE I love the green, that's my color too!

[damcard]

OK, enough text and boring pictures, time for some video! Just a couple of minutes of offroad electric fun at a local area.

Hey Gary, Is that at OP Schnabel? We should meet up some time for a ride once I get a bike on the road again. -David.

[GrayKard]

Hey Gary, Is that at OP Schnabel? We should meet up some time for a ride once I get a bike on the road again. -David.

Nope, this is a place on the south side near Military Drive, called 700 acres. It's on private land that has some nice trails running around down near a creek. Apparently the owner doesn't mind the trails so no worry about being run off.

I pass by OP Schnabel Park all the time going to and from work but have never been in there. I just downloaded the PDF of the trails and it looks like they have quite a few packed in there. Yeah, a meet up there or at other trails sounds good.

What happened to your bike? I remember reading your build before I did mine and thought It was good how you put the batteries in the center for better handling.

If you want to take a spin on my bike I'm going to be at the Blue Star Brewing Company on June 4th for the usual First Friday party. If you've never been there you will really like it. The Blue Star Bike Shop right next door is where I got my hub motors laced.

Any other E-bikers in the area should come down and join the party!

Gary

[GrayKard]

Time to drag this tired old thread out again...

I decided to purchase a couple of Lyen's 6 fet controllers for this bike recently. One reason is they are a lot smaller then the current controllers so they are going to fit better when I move them to their final locations. Another is that I like that they are programmable.

I spent a couple of hours removing the old controllers and mounting the new ones in the triangle. Took me about another hour to find a working hall and phase wire sequence. So it's up and running again and I've had several days of commuting on it.

NewControllersInstalled.jpg (139.96 KiB) Viewed 392 times

One problem that came up is that the throttle output from one of the halls in my dual hall setup is outside the range that the new controllers like. It causes one of them to not start due to the high throttle safety. It seems that the BMSbattery controllers I was using don't have that feature. I haven't verified this yet but I will do some testing when I get the chance as this is rather alarming. I thought all modern controllers had that feature.

I do know the day before I swapped controllers that when I plugged my pack in the bike tried to creep forward. The throttle had stuck just a little bit in the on position. At the time I didn't even think about what could have happened had it been WOT.

I will be able to fix the throttle with some resistors but for now if I leave that one unplugged until the controllers are powered up it works fine. Then when I plug it in the front motor tries to spin at about 10 rpm. If I'm sitting on the bike it's not a problem.

Next problem is a that the bike has cut off a few times just as I start accelerating. I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but I think it's either the controller cutting out due to battery sag below LVC. Or it's the BMS cutting power because amp draw is too high. To fix it I have to unplug the battery. Would I have to do that in either case?

I forgot to see if the watt meters were still powered up when it happened. That would tell me if it's the controller as opposed to the BMS.

I was hoping it would have a little more top end on the default settings but it's slower. It does have more torque now. Too much really as both the front and back wheels spin if I go WOT on takeoff. I will need different settings in each controller if I want to minimize wheel spin. It's going to be a lot of trail and error I'm sure.

In other news I ordered a rear YXM rear hub motor kit to put on my spare Mongoose frame.

YXM kit.jpg (76.43 KiB) Viewed 392 times

I will use it as my commuter for a while so I can do some needed work on the Ibex. I have 2000 miles of pedalling and 2000 miles of motoring so it's about time I checked all the bearings and pivots for slop. I also need to get some custom spacers so I can install the rear air shock I've had for a while.

The First Friday party was fun as usual. As a bonus I found some neat cement trails that run along the San Antonio river heading south from the Blue Star Complex. Part of them are still blocked off as they are in the process of extending it further. I'll try to remember my video camera next time and get some shots along the path. I was the only Ebike there again.

Gary

[Whiplash]

Really Gary? Wheel spin on takeoff?! Dam those little guys really do have some juice don't they!? I would love to see some video of it moving out WOT in the dirt but shot by someone else, since the helmet cam thing is terrible for showing acceleration and top speed!

[GrayKard]

Next problem is a that the bike has cut off a few times just as I start accelerating. I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but I think it's either the controller cutting out due to battery sag below LVC. Or it's the BMS cutting power because amp draw is too high. To fix it I have to unplug the battery. Would I have to do that in either case?

Did some troubleshooting on this issue. Tried both battery packs and only the B pack is having this problem. The new controllers are peaking at 27amps each. That's about 14 amps higher total than before.

I noticed the B pack was not fully balancing so I figure I have at least one cell that is a bit low. So it's got enough sag to occasionally cause the controller LVC to kick in. Shouldn't be a real problem if I dial the amps down a bit.

Later I may open the pack up and replace the bad cell/cells or I may even get enough cells to upgrade it from a 48volt pack up to 60volts.

Still waiting on my YXM kit, should be here in a few days.

Gary

[kadir]

it's really steep, like 20%. At some point on a rear wheel bike, you start having a serious wheelie problem.

And thats another reason to get a Xtracycle !

[Whiplash]

What kind of AH consumption do you get with this setup? what about top speed?? It looks like it climbs pretty good though? Would you say its a winner? I am sure you already posted this but I am too lazy right now to look through all the posts...

[GrayKard]

What kind of AH consumption do you get with this setup? what about top speed?? It looks like it climbs pretty good though? Would you say its a winner? I am sure you already posted this but I am too lazy right now to look through all the posts...

It averages 3 miles to the ah at 48 volts. That's with no peddling. Top speed is 18mph but I think I can squeeze a bit more out of it when I get around to reprogramming the controllers. I still plan on doing Delta/Wye switching on these motors and it may happen soon as I'm working on my second Ebike. Top speed then should be close to 30mph.

It's a great hill climber. It will go up pretty much any paved street with no peddling, and with both motors sharing the load I have yet to overheat them, or even get them very warm. I think the slow wind and running the amps reasonable low helps with keeping them cool. I do plan on installing thermometers when I'm adding the extra set of phase wires.

Once it's all finished it will be a winner, you betcha.

Gary

[beast775]

very nice build.i like the idea of 2 small motors on a off road bike,handling must be great.

[dogman]

Re wheelies on 20% grades. I was refering to riding on dirt singletrack trails and jeep roads. On an extracycle? Nah, I'll stick to a FS mountainbike for trails.

[kadir]

Re wheelies on 20% grades. I was refering to riding on dirt singletrack trails and jeep roads. On an extracycle? Nah, I'll stick to a FS mountainbike for trails.

Believe me, Extracycle is not that much heavier. Since the xtracycle makes the trailing arm a lot longer, even rough terrain seems very smooth as the shocks need to move only a little bit to engulf big pebbles.

The long wheel base also helps in stability. On a normal bike, if the rear wheel looses traction at a turn during high speed cornering, its hard to keep control. On an xtracycle, I intentionally try to slide through turns.

[GrayKard]

very nice build.i like the idea of 2 small motors on a off road bike,handling must be great.

Thanks. Yeah since it added very little to the unsprung weight and it retained front to rear distribution it feels good on the trails. These motors seem to be very well made and have held up to moderate off road use.

One of the main reasons I went with small motors was to retain front and rear disk brakes. Now that some of the DD motors are getting front and rear disk compatible I may try a dual direct drive hub bike. But that would probably be on road only.

Gary

[GrayKard]

IBEX Bicycles has reopened! Good place to get a bike with nice components for a decent price. Downside is you can't test ride one as they are factory direct sales only.

Not many models ready yet.

Still riding mine to and from work quite a bit as the commuter project still needs a lot of work. I've pulled the front hub motor off in anticipation of some wiring upgrades I will be doing soon. So it's rear wheel drive for now.

Gary

[GrayKard]

It figures I would have the front hub off and finally opened for wiring changes just when it snows...

I finally found drawings with dimensions of various "Cute" hub motors and confirmed that I have the smallest version aka the Cute 85.

85-disc.jpg (54.68 KiB) Viewed 728 times

Here's my handy hub unscrewer made from a 1 x 4. I drilled out and opening for the axle and the 3 screws. Then I used a wood chisel to make room on the back side for the raised area around the axle.

Opener.jpg (67.66 KiB) Viewed 728 times

The guts come out opposite the wire side so if you want it all the way apart you do have to remove the connector hardware.

Gutted.jpg (69.31 KiB) Viewed 444 times

The bearing stayed in the housing. The 6 holes are for attaching the disc brake rotor. Needs modding as the threads are poorly done and metal is a bit thin.

Shell.jpg (248.4 KiB) Viewed 444 times

The wire side with a circuit board for the halls.

WireSide.jpg (246.68 KiB) Viewed 728 times

To be continued.

[GrayKard]

Now it's time to remove the cover that's still on the motor assembly. To do that the nut needs to come off.

Nut.jpg (245.95 KiB) Viewed 444 times

I have a pliers that is made for grabbing round objects but I was careful not to damage the area where the bearing seats.

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Now that the nut is off the cover slides right off. This side has the ring gear and clutch inside.

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Once a small plate is removed you can see the clutch with the three cylinders that ride on ramps to make it a one way movement.

PlateRemoved.jpg (96.4 KiB) Viewed 728 times

Stay tuned.

[GrayKard]

Before we can get to the wiring the 6 screws holding the axle are loosened and the 2 holding the hall board are removed. Next I removed the 6 exterior screws and finished removing the axle screws.

14Screws.jpg (62.14 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Since the hall wires are damaged and I'm replacing the phase wires I cut them near the end of the axle. This made it easier to slide the axle and cover off.

CuttingWires.jpg (58.02 KiB) Viewed 723 times

Finally at the coils. But what's this writing? 3 x 22 A. Well, looking at the ends I see three wires going to each phase wire. So 3 strands with 22 turns. No idea what the "A" is for. Hmmm, starting to get interesting.

Free.jpg (53.38 KiB) Viewed 728 times

Nice tight coils and very neatly done. So far everything about these motors says quality. I count 16 magnets and 18 teeth.

Revealed.jpg (70.52 KiB) Viewed 723 times

More on the way.

[ChinaPhil]

BUILD COSTS
IBEX Ignition Downhill Bike: $738.95
Motors and Controllers: $279.93
Turnigy Watt Meters: $68.85

As you have Turnigy Watt Meters do you have any data comparing one hub motor with two?

[GrayKard]

BUILD COSTS
IBEX Ignition Downhill Bike: $738.95
Motors and Controllers: $279.93
Turnigy Watt Meters: $68.85

As you have Turnigy Watt Meters do you have any data comparing one hub motor with two?

I never got around to doing testing on that like I wanted to. It's still on my "to do" list sorry.

[GrayKard]

Thought I should add an object for scale as it's hard to tell how small this motor is from the pictures I've posted.

MotorScale.jpg (78.67 KiB) Viewed 723 times

To speed up the rewiring process I pulled off the rear motor and put my Conhismotor DD motor on there. I also pulled the controllers so now I can do all the wiring at once and then put it back on the bike as a complete unit.

I wanted to see how difficult it's going to be to run 6 phase wire plus hall wires plus a couple more for temp monitoring. So I cut off some off the old phase wires and ran 6 of them with hall wires into the axle.

Since I don't have to go around a corner while feeding the wires it should be doable. The new phase wires are 16 gauge and I would guess the old are 18 gauge.

While I have the motor out I figured I should check the gear ratio. I was surprised to find that it's 14:1. The rear should be the same but I'll check it too.

Gary

[GrayKard]

Thought I would go through and repair all the damaged and missing photos on this thread today. Good thing I kept them all in one folder. Hope other people will repair their threads if they can.

On a different note I was skimming through the original "cute" motor thread and noticed some confusion about the freewheeling of these motors. Also saw it in a few other threads. So here is how the freewheeling works on the smallest 85 motors:

The roller clutch is inside the ring gear. When coasting the rollers disengage. So all that spins is the motor shell attached to the spokes. Drag comes from the axle bearings and two bearing surfaces on the ring gear.

One bearing surface is inside the ring gear where the rollers engage. The other is on the back where it rides against the cover. When the motor is off the gears do not move. So that's why it's a good idea to not be on the throttle when doing any kind of jumping or curb hopping as it takes the gears out of the equation.

Another thing mentioned in that thread by Lynchy(Cell_man) was that Ananda told him that they were available in different gear ratios. He stated his 85 was 9 to 1. I think that since mine is 14 to 1 it confirms that they do indeed offer multiple ratios.

Might be interesting to see if I could get some other sets in different ratios for testing.

Gary

[GrayKard]

Put the new rear shock in a few days ago.

NewRearShock.jpg (34.02 KiB) Viewed 837 times

It's so nice having a working rear shock again. My old one had leaked all the oil so was just a spring at this point. The new owner of Ibex bikes sent me spacers for the shock and threw in a new derailleur hanger too. What he charged me probably only covered shipping which was nice of him.

I also got a little done on the motors. I did a test fit of 6 new phase wires and the 5 original hall wires that I'm reusing.

WireTestFit.jpg (33.63 KiB) Viewed 830 times

Was a good fit and even with 2 more small wires for a temp sensor it will be easy to do. The way the motor is set up it will be much easier to wire everything first, fit the motor end cap on, then run the wire through the axle. I will shrink wrap the section going through to help protect against wire chaffing.

On the rear hub motor I had to soak the freewheel with WD-40 for a few days to get it unstuck but it's off now. I tried to unscrew the side plate with my wooden tool but I had to remove some material to get the freewheel threads to fit and it made it too weak. It shattered so I will be making one in metal now.

[John in CR]

What an easy thru axle wire upgrade that is. These little motors keep surprising me.