Tour De France Envy?

safe · Jul 29, 2007

I don't know about you guys but I find that the extremely high level of technology that is used in the Tour De France is hard to compete against in the electric bike world. It would be interesting to see where this all ends up because it seems to me that the electric bike world has just barely scratched the surface of what it can be. The main thing is that what is important to a bicyclist is not the same as what is important to an electric bike. We don't NEED to pedal to make speed, we can exploit things that the bike racer is often banned from doing. My SLA heavyweight monster can pull on a straightaway better top speeds that the best time trial rider did. (35 mph verses 40 mph)

But we are like cavemen in a world of high tech... (for now)

BiGH · Jul 29, 2007

yep i completely agree...

the problem would be that most governments etc don't want electric riders to have the same ability of speed as tour cyclists have....

E-bikes would have to catch on in a VERY big way for the level of components to get to a high enough level, either that or some high end manufacturers would have to come out with some crazy level gear.

given enough time i'm sure it will happen, a bike that doesn't weigh much more than a heavy steel framed bike, that is in reality an elec road bike.

then again we could just make something like this:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/465.html

mmmm

Geebee · Jul 30, 2007

The biggest technology in the tour is chemically modified engines.
What is so flash about the bike technology everthing is lighter but once you get to a certain point it costs thousands per ounce to achieve and at the cost of strength/durability.
The bikes are available to any that wish to buy them you can get a 20lb road bike for a bit over $500.00 and weight reduction from that point costs a lot.
Safe, this is Electric bicycles the motorcycles section is down a bit lower, some of us like to pedal.

I would like to see the lighter batteries get cheaper but other than that the easiest way to get what you appear to want is go recumbent. The tour tech is useless for the average e-biker unless you want to modify the meat motor.

safe · Jul 30, 2007

Geebee said:
Safe, this is Electric bicycles the motorcycles section is down a bit lower, some of us like to pedal.

Well I was saying that pedaling is "optional" and we normally don't "need" to pedal on our American bikes. Some bikes are just "electric bikes" and not "electric and human hybrid" bikes. The line in America is 750 watts which is the vague definition of where the "electric bike" world ends and the "electric motorycle" world begins, though in my state that line isn't crossed until you get up to three horsepower. For much of the world the "line" separating the electric bike and the motorcycle is only 250 watts. At 250 watts you HAVE to pedal because otherwise you would not have enough power to get around.

Getting back to the "envy" issue though... yes it's true that money just buys lighter weight, but it's just the idea of having a high quality final result that is attractive. It's the fact that big $$$ can buy precision and light weight and all this testing that was done on it for so many years. It's the fact that they are more or less "done" with the development process.

But some things that are important in the bicycling world are not in the electric bike (ignoring the pedaling) world. Having a short wheelbase is important on a bicycle because it makes for a stiffer frame and allows someone to get more power out of their pedaling. Thin wheels reduce weight. But when you have tons of power you can do the opposite and have a long wheelbase (for better handling at speed) and big tires that offer tons of traction. In order to handle the extra power, speed, traction, wheelbase you need a frame that is much, much stronger. The final result is a bike that can corner at much higher speeds and with good aerodynamics fly past the regular bike on the straight aways. Ironically this machine becomes MORE efficient than the bicycle because aerodynamics are the #1 most important straight away issue and higher cornering speeds mean that you lose less momentum as you go. (you carry all your speed with you)

So the design of the electric bike (as people awaken to performance and speed) flips everything upside down. All the ideas that went into the bicycle need to be rethought in the light of motorcycle like behaviors. I'm reluctantly accepting that at the speeds I'm getting into I'll need full suspension which is very hard to do well if you want a light weight bike.

The 750 watt electric bike is an American creation. The 250 watt European and Australian bike will remain similiar to the bicycle. America has opened the door to a new world... and it's hard to know how it will end up.

The joke though is the "20 mph top speed" rule. 20 mph? That's so out of line with 750 watts it's laughable. At 750 watts you can easily get to 40 mph with any reasonable aerodynamics. Allowing that the 750 watts is the "rated" power and that the "real" peak is more like 1000 watts you can go so much faster than the 20 mph limit that it's hard to reconcile the two. It simply BEGS people to modify their gearing to achieve what the motor can already do.... :wink:

v_tach · Jul 30, 2007

safe said:
The joke though is the "20 mph top speed" rule. 20 mph? That's so out of line with 750 watts it's laughable. At 750 watts you can easily get to 40 mph with any reasonable aerodynamics. Allowing that the 750 watts is the "rated" power and that the "real" peak is more like 1000 watts you can go so much faster than the 20 mph limit that it's hard to reconcile the two. It simply BEGS people to modify their gearing to achieve what the motor can already do....

Your rationalization is the joke. Power can be used and is required for more than just top speed. Most automobiles have the power to exceed the highest speed limits but speeding isn't legal.

Lowell · Jul 30, 2007

Thankfully, ebike speed limits are impossible to enforce, as any able bodied person can pedal a bike faster than 20mph on a flat road. While running a 20mph efficiency test on my bike, a girl on a 15+yr old clunker Diamond Back mountain bike left me in the dust.

knightmb · Jul 30, 2007

There are many my bike club that can pedal their bikes to over 35 MPH on the flats easily. Fast enough that an entire club of riders can ride through downtown Franklin with the 30 MPH speed limit and not hold up the usual traffic. 20 MPH does by today's standards seem too low. I can remember when I was 10 years old and 20 MPH seemed too fast on my little bicycle, but it took too much effort to pedal it up to that speed anyway. Now, my bike can hit 20 MPH under my own pedal power even with the weight of the bike and no help from the motor. Faster if I have no head wind.

Lowell · Jul 30, 2007

Interestingly, nobody complains about people riding time trial bikes on the streets at over 35mph, and those machines are highly compromised in the braking, handling and tire departments.

Robbie Hatfield · Jul 31, 2007

In all fairness, nobody complains when it's a race and all car traffic has been cleared away and there's cheering crowds watching.

Robbie

Ypedal · Jul 31, 2007

Why pedal ?... Ypdal indeed !

It's like arguing religion or politics... a never ending battle.

The part i like the most is having the option to make the bike into what you need it to do. And that's going to be different for everyone.

All things considered, a high-end, Lithium powered Ebike, with enough power and range to satisfy most peoples needs can be done for under 3500 $.

At the time of this writing, i have over 2500 into my Norco, and could easily add more/better components.. but i'm perfectly happy with my ride.

Me, personally, i have no desire for a road-bike at all.. too flimsly, i don't need light-weight to travel 30mph with the motor/batteries. But on the same note, i like to hop curbs and practice wheelies !!!

safe · Jul 31, 2007

Ypedal said:
All things considered, a high-end, Lithium powered Ebike, with enough power and range to satisfy most peoples needs can be done for under 3500 $.

At the time of this writing, i have over 2500 into my Norco, and could easily add more/better components.. but i'm perfectly happy with my ride.

$3500 / 2500 miles = $1.40 per mile.

On my bike:

$800 / 2000 miles = 40 cents per mile. (so far)

xyster · Jul 31, 2007

safe said:
$3500 / 2500 miles = $1.40 per mile.

On my bike:

$800 / 2000 miles = 40 cents per mile. (so far)

Ypedal's bike has a lot more for that extra $1/mile though.

A lot more power....
A lot more suspension...
A lot more pedals ....
A lot more fun...

safe · Jul 31, 2007

xyster said:
A lot more fun...

I forget what his bike is like, but I already own a Mountain Bike. When it comes to fun my "Road Racer" beats any kind of regular bicycle. (on the street)

Actually... hold on... I'm going to go take a picture comparing my mountain bike and my new project bike.

Okay, here they are. Hopefully this gives a sense of scale of the difference between styles. The Road Racer is almost a foot longer and much lower. The Mountain Bike is waaaaay up in the air. I know how both handle very well and I wouldn't want to try to do much on the street with the Mountain Bike. (the Mountain Bike is great on downhills in the dirt with jumps and stuff, but it's too flexible for the street)

That does bring up a good question:

How many mountain bike based electric bikes actually do jumps and stuff in the dirt? If the mountain bike struts it's stuff in dirt riding are people limiting themselves to the street most of the time? (too much battery weight to use the bike offroad?)

If so... then they should be either converting to "Road Racer" thinking or doing whatever it takes to make their electric mountain bike good on the dirt again...

(you forget I started life as a BMX and then Mountain Bike racer and actually won a few races... back in 1979 or so... :lol: okay... I got old... what can I say...)

xyster · Jul 31, 2007

To go anywhere on the one on the left, you have to push it with a foot while sitting on two butt skewers. I'll take the one on the right.

safe · Jul 31, 2007

xyster said:
To go anywhere on the one on the left, you have to push it with a foot while sitting on two butt skewers. I'll take the one on the right.

That will change in a month or two... then if you rode the one on the left you would go WOW that's fun!!!

Gosh... it's August already... (tomorrow) I'm hoping to get the next project done before winter. Fall is good, but once winter comes then I'll have to wait until spring. That's kind of how it was on the first project, I had just gotten it running and the weather went cold and I had to wait.

Geebee · Jul 31, 2007

The main reason for MTB conversions is I think the extra strength, a lot of the newer road bikes are very fragile, the extra weight and power could well prove lethal, oh and standard road bike brakes suck.
The bike on the left would suck for me unless it has enough grunt to do well over 20% hills without cooking, how is it on a 60 klm ride with lots of big long hills, and you freeze your ass of in winter if you dont pedal or else have a velomobile.

I am winding you up Safe

but they are legit concerns for myself.

safe · Aug 1, 2007

Geebee said:
The main reason for MTB conversions is I think the extra strength, a lot of the newer road bikes are very fragile, the extra weight and power could well prove lethal.

That was my observation too. People are taking bikes that are designed for taking jumps in the dirt and using them as street machines. It would be better to focus on making those offroad abilities successful again (make taking a big jump not a problem) or to switch to road performance issues. The way things are now people are in this never never land where you don't really get the best of anything.

Geebee said:
The bike on the left would suck for me unless it has enough grunt to do well over 20% hills without cooking, how is it on a 60 klm ride with lots of big long hills, and you freeze your ass of in winter if you dont pedal or else have a velomobile.

Money buys batteries. (so range comes down to how much you want to spend) American motors are 750 watts (or above) so there's plenty of power here to climb anything and with gears it's even more so. Lastly the bike is not anywhere near being done and will have fairings front and rear... so you could ride in the cold and most of the air would stay off of you. Cold weather riding is tough to do though below about 50 degrees.

I started this thread because I was watching the Tour De France and they were talking about all these very minute refinements they were doing and I was impressed at how far along the development process they are. We in the electric bike world are witnessing the very beginnings and while it's kind of fun being in such a "wild west" environment (sort of like the beginnings of mountain bike design in the 1970's) it's also would be nice to be living in more "civilized" times. In the future all the stuff that we build and dream of will be available at the local bike store at a good price. (well, unless WWIII interrupts things before then )

Geebee · Aug 1, 2007

When healthy (not this winter) I ride down to zero c or just under, it was one of the motivations for the shell.
Unfortunately batteries mean weight unless you can afford hi tech ones and SLA get heavy fast with increased capacity, the weight can really kill the feel of a bike fast especially if you are into the pedal side of things, but even ignoring that I have found especially on 2 wheelers (except choppers) they tend to loose something when they get too heavy they don't tend to be as nimble or something.
To each their own though, she would be a boring old place otherwise.

dirty_d · Aug 1, 2007

are those legal to ride on the street everywhere?

Ypedal · Aug 1, 2007

Safe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsrpzLA3ODg

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4749862029616241264

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7565774315427268891

I take my bike off-road all the time.

It handles the trails fairly well, but i have it equipped for road use mainly with slicks instead of knobies.. The bike frame is solid, very low flex, and 48" wheelbase. On the paved jungle it rides like a cloud, the rear racks tend to snap but i'm working on a better desing.

safe · Aug 2, 2007

Well your bike seems to be more durable than most of the electric bikes around. Have you actually gotten air on the bike? On my mountain bike I've jumped 20 to 30 feet in distance (5 feet in the air) and other than breaking a spoke or two I've had no problems. There was a massive downhill that I used to do where I would drop about 200 feet off a near cliff and I'd be going 40 mph or more at the bottom over big bumps and stuff. (this was back in California) I'd like to hear about the longest jump you've done. How many feet in distance? How high? That will give me some idea of what the bike can do. But you do see my point right? Most people are using a mountain bike for their electric bikes simply because anything else would fall apart...

xyster · Aug 2, 2007

Most people are using a mountain bike for their electric bikes simply because anything else would fall apart...

Wider dropouts and suspension are the main reasons I see for the MTB preference. I use a comfort bike -- from what I read, generally the same as a MTB but with an adjustable stem, a more upright seating position, and a more comfortable seat, like MTBs used to be.

safe · Aug 2, 2007

xyster said:
I use a comfort bike.

Which in the motorcycle world is the equivalent of riding this:

Not this:

Or this:

xyster · Aug 2, 2007

Ridiculous -- comparing apples and oranges. The touring motorcycle is inherently much bigger and heavier than it's sporty counterparts, a comfort bike is neither bigger nor heavier than a MTB. It's just got a more padded saddle, hybrid tires, and an adjustable stem.

Ypedal · Aug 2, 2007

safe said:
Well your bike seems to be more durable than most of the electric bikes around. Have you actually gotten air on the bike?

I'd like to hear about the longest jump you've done. How many feet in distance? How high? That will give me some idea of what the bike can do. But you do see my point right? Most people are using a mountain bike for their electric bikes simply because anything else would fall apart...

Air, Yes, some... i estimate realistically 12" off the ground and aprox 4 to 6 ft distance. I have not yet dared anything more.. This was on a section of sidewalk at work where i have a clear path to a portion that has a ramp from the paved parking lot and drops off on the other side.. i hit it at 30 km/h + with the suspension loaded..

The bike frame i'm not worried about, but the battery mounts are the weakest link right now..

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