My 5kw-h "Sport Tourer" (with HD video)

[grindz145]

If it runs in reverse, I think you only need to flip any two phases. Possibly also have to flip the same hall pair, but can't remember now.

This is exactly the same conclusion I came to, but I couldn't get it to work... I think it may be because of the placement of sensors being between phases or something... I tried a few more configurations yesterday but the whole thing fell over on me and whacked me in the head with the handlebar and I threw in the towel for the night. Luckily with enough ice, you can't even notice the bump unless you really look for it...

[grindz145]

Looks like it's going to be a great bike!

I'm guessing those packs are clusters of 18650s inside a little can with a BMS and display? Field Coms batteries?

You got it, 2 sets of 4s3p 18650s in each pack. They're a standard mil type battery that are used for a bunch of different radios.

[grindz145]

@grindz: those are interesting looking packs. Are those little LCDs on there to display battery info?

Yes, they're 'fuel gauges'

[mr.electric]

When a brushless hub goes in reverse it is quicker to flip the wheel around if it were a front hub.
There are 36 combinations of hall and phase wires. Only one good forward and one good reverse combo. To reverse you have to swap two phase wires, the right two phase wires and make some hall wire changes as well.
With an RC motor it is easy, just swap any two phase wires. My BMC controller has a reverse jumper to save the hastle. I spent over an hour on various combos on a front crystalite with rim brakes and wished I had just flopped the wheel.

[grindz145]

When a brushless hub goes in reverse it is quicker to flip the wheel around if it were a front hub.
There are 36 combinations of hall and phase wires. Only one good forward and one good reverse combo. To reverse you have to swap two phase wires, the right two phase wires and make some hall wire changes as well.
With an RC motor it is easy, just swap any two phase wires. My BMC controller has a reverse jumper to save the hastle. I spent over an hour on various combos on a front crystalite with rim brakes and wished I had just flopped the wheel.

Thanks. At least I know which sensor wires go with which phase wires which should limit the amount of combinations I have left to try.

[grindz145]

It's alive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrYpuelhQ4

All in all it only took a spreadsheet and alot of trying before I got the phase/sensor wires right.

The handling is less than ideal But its definitely manageable. The performance up to 25mph is awesome. I'm somewhat surprised that my top speed is only around 30-35 ish on flats. This may be the controller limiting (I have yet to program it). It may be simply that with all the weight it just doesn't quite make it up there, or maybe its just topped out Kv wise. That thing is dangerous any faster that 35 anyway

After I setup the cycle analyst I took it for a nice long ride. I ended up with a flat tire I think this is because of the skinny front rim I have and a 2.5 inch hookworm on there.

It seems like the motor is really under stressed. I may just have to Y-Delta convert it:D

We went for a little ride 2-up to get some milk. even 2 up it has no problems doing 25Mph with tons of torque. I didn't dare go faster with 2 people, not enough testing.

This is just the begining

[grindz145]

I calibrated the shunt resistor last night using an inductive current probe. I couldn't figure out why the number I came up with ended up being the number I THOUGHT I put in the cycle analyst. As it turns out the cycle analyst in low mode, tops out at around 700u ohms (even though I entered 250u ohms). It is working fantastically now. I can't seem to get the current limit to activate controller foldback though. Ill work on this, but for now I'll just by a crap load of 35-40A fuses:D

I am going to compete in the RIT 'Green Vehicle Challenge' this weekend. If you're in the Rochester area stop by!

[grindz145]

Yesterday was the RIT green vehicle challenge. What a wirlwind of a day!

check an explanation of the rules here: http://www.rit.edu/imagine/green_vehicle.html

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On friday I rode my bike 63 miles! I rode to work, then from work home to grab my Xtracycle center stand (so I didn't have to lay it down at the start of the race:D) then over to a friends house close to RIT. We performed some test runs that night while getting an incredible number of double-takes from students on campus . 2 up on an electric xtracycle is alot of freakin fun (even though my passenger wasn't terribly comfortable )

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We got up early and headed over to see the variety of vehicles at the start of the race. In attendance were the president of the college and his wife both on hub-motor based ebikes. There were definitely many endless-sphere lurkers present. There were also some beautiful recumbent trikes (several pulling trailers for passengers in order to get a greater wh/passenger rating). My personal favorite was a small drag-bike style motorcycle with LiFePO4 called lowbow. Perhaps the most eye catching of all was a canoe-based 4 passenger 4 wheeler. Every vehicle was hub motor driven (much to my surprise). With the exception of the president and his wife, I was the only one who rode their bike to the race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRc3k2m8BE4

This was taken yesterday at the event. You can see me at 1:48 taking off my helmet. I avoided interviews:D The interviewers seemed alot more interested in the recumbent trikes. I think my bike looked less interesting but I was still quite efficient. In general I was ignored because of my slightly more traditional ebike (a recurring theme in my life ) but I was definitely a sleeper . I took home 2nd place!!! after an incredible composite recumbent trike built by the CIMS (the center for integrated manufacturing studies).
Attachment:

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My energy usage for the ~3 mile course was 104.5W/h. Since we had 2 passengers we were able to divide that in half for our score which gave us a total of 52.25 wh / person. The winning recumbent used only 49 w/h but they also destroyed us in time (which was a factor in the score).

Overall I think that the semi-light 2- passenger xtracycle setup (some of the trikes were considerably heavier) combined with a very efficient methods spec infineon based controller was really a winning combination. The rolling resistance of a 2 wheel vehicle rocks (and I have my hook-worms pumped up to the max).

The opening ceremony and announcement of winners was followed by a flash mob

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lovit

[GrayKard]

What was the average speed on your run and what did the winner have for average speed. Reason I'm asking is that it sounds like you had to do a lot of stops and starts otherwise I would expect your efficiency to be better than that.

My average speed isn't that high on my bike but it is very efficient when I can run WOT the whole time. Last night on my commute home I had an average speed of 18.0mph with a Wh/mi. of approx. 13.7 and that was with no pedaling.

Looks like it was a very fun event.

Gary

[grindz145]

What was the average speed on your run and what did the winner have for average speed. Reason I'm asking is that it sounds like you had to do a lot of stops and starts otherwise I would expect your efficiency to be better than that.

My average speed isn't that high on my bike but it is very efficient when I can run WOT the whole time. Last night on my commute home I had an average speed of 18.0mph with a Wh/mi. of approx. 13.7 and that was with no pedaling.

Looks like it was a very fun event.

Gary

I'm not sure exactly what my average speed was but I only got up to about 30 on one big downhill. Otherwise, I was going quite slow with the starts and stops. I think I gained alot by going slow up to the stop signs. I can average about 27 mph without trying too hard, but I didn't do nearly that on the 3 mile loop for this event. If I had to guess probably only about 15mph (I never checked the cycle analyst afterward to check).

[grindz145]

Just calculated the total mileage I can expect to get out of this pack...: 40k mi or 70 days of continuous riding...

[dequinox]

Awesome build! I really want to do a long range longtail also...I'm looking at 60ah TS or Foxx cells for the simplicity of pack assembly. I'm new to lithium in that I haven't been able to play with it just yet

What a range though...and the life expectancy seems on par with motorcycle's and cars before their first major overhaul. Well done sir!

[grindz145]

:shock: Awesome build! I really want to do a long range longtail also...I'm looking at 60ah TS or Foxx cells for the simplicity of pack assembly. I'm new to lithium in that I haven't been able to play with it just yet

What a range though...and the life expectancy seems on par with motorcycle's and cars before their first major overhaul. Well done sir!

Thanks!

To take it further, the battery costs are about 5.1 cents per mile when you include energy cost and amortization of the pack (and assuming $500 / KWh). However, with thundersky cells (or anything lifepo4) you should be able to get 5-10X the cycles out of the pack! However, the weight is significantly more so the pack itself may have to be smaller which would end up with a smaller overall distance it would travel. I like to do these kind of calculations.

Comparing that to my ST1300 which consequently has round 40K miles, I have spent around $3K in gasoline alone (ugh) to get it that far. So apples to apples its about 7.9 cents/mile. Admittedly my ST1300 is a much more capable machine. However, introduce some mass production into the equation and I would say that the battery technology is definitely there. Hell, this doesn't take into account oil changes either, or the cost of huffing gas fumes..

Keep me posted on your project

[nuvola]

Hi grind,
I've some questions for you?
which is the total weight of your ebike without driver?
have you never tried to go down from high mountains?
I've a 48V60ah lion battery carried by a cargo trail and I've some problem braking on 10% downhill.
my ebike is 15kg(bike)+8kg(9c)+30kg(battery)+2kg(tools)+8kg(cargo)=63kg plus my body.
How do you resolved this problem?
I use a trekking bike which can carry at least 7" idraulic rotor but the breaking power it's not enouugh.

[grindz145]

Hi grind,
I've some questions for you?
which is the total weight of your ebike without driver?
have you never tried to go down from high mountains?
I've a 48V60ah lion battery carried by a cargo trail and I've some problem braking on 10% downhill.
my ebike is 15kg(bike)+8kg(9c)+30kg(battery)+2kg(tools)+8kg(cargo)=63kg plus my body.
How do you resolved this problem?
I use a trekking bike which can carry at least 7" idraulic rotor but the breaking power it's not enouugh.

Hello!

The bike is ~110lbs or about 50 kgs.

My breaking power is DEFINATELY enough:D Here's my recommendation:

Crappy hydraulic disc brakes are < good mechanical discs. I'm using the BB7s which are (arguably) the best mechanical disk breaks you can get (and they are an 8 inch rotor).

What model disc brakes are you using?

[liveforphysics]

I love that your pack can dump 5kw as 1C discharge, and keep it up for an hour. There is something so nice about having all the range you need to do and go anywhere you like.

Kudos!

-Luke

[nuvola]

I started with a kit by shimano (M486 with a 6" rotor), but I've quickly understood that on hills is not enough.
Than I tried to change just the rotor with a 7" (XT model) but still not enough.
Now I'm tryng to using a 8" rotor (I think it's a shimano deore) but I've problem because my fork hasn't necessary space to mount it!!
I plan to switch to Avid juicy 5 (that I already have it, so no more money spent) to see how much power can I gain.
If juicy 5 will not give me desirable break power, the only solution is try to mount a MTB fork and a real powerfull brake like Shimano Saint, Avid Code all with 8" rotor and so on....
My bike is trekking bike and use to work with 28" wheels, so I need to check if a 28" wheel could have enough space on MTB 26" fork.
Because another problem is using a so powerfull brake with a fork that isn't designed to work with those deceleration.

Just note that actually I don't have a rear brake (I'm still working on it...)

Hello!

The bike is ~110lbs or about 50 kgs.

My breaking power is DEFINATELY enough:D Here's my recommendation:

Crappy hydraulic disc brakes are < good mechanical discs. I'm using the BB7s which are (arguably) the best mechanical disk breaks you can get (and they are an 8 inch rotor).

What model disc brakes are you using?

[grindz145]

I started with a kit by shimano (M486 with a 6" rotor), but I've quickly understood that on hills is not enough.
Than I tried to change just the rotor with a 7" (XT model) but still not enough.
Now I'm tryng to using a 8" rotor (I think it's a shimano deore) but I've problem because my fork hasn't necessary space to mount it!!
I plan to switch to Avid juicy 5 (that I already have it, so no more money spent) to see how much power can I gain.
If juicy 5 will not give me desirable break power, the only solution is try to mount a MTB fork and a real powerfull brake like Shimano Saint, Avid Code all with 8" rotor and so on....
My bike is trekking bike and use to work with 28" wheels, so I need to check if a 28" wheel could have enough space on MTB 26" fork.
Because another problem is using a so powerfull brake with a fork that isn't designed to work with those deceleration.

Just note that actually I don't have a rear brake (I'm still working on it...)

Hello!

The bike is ~110lbs or about 50 kgs.

My breaking power is DEFINATELY enough:D Here's my recommendation:

Crappy hydraulic disc brakes are < good mechanical discs. I'm using the BB7s which are (arguably) the best mechanical disk breaks you can get (and they are an 8 inch rotor).

What model disc brakes are you using?

I would bet that the Juicys would make all the difference. However, don't underestimate a good mechanical disk.
I've just experienced a huge range of performance from different bicycle disk brakes, they're definitely not created equal.

The extra 30 percent or so stopping power of adding a rear break might help as well... although my rear brake alone is almost enough to slow the whole bike down from 30mph pretty quick.

[grindz145]

I love that your pack can dump 5kw as 1C discharge, and keep it up for an hour. There is something so nice about having all the range you need to do and go anywhere you like.

Kudos!

-Luke

I have some purist bicycle friends that ask me why electric?

I ask them if they can ride a double-century w/ luggage.

Crickets.

[grindz145]

I put on 52 miles yesterday without flinching, I only lost about 1 volt on the back during the whole ride, Average speed 27mph, 1.3Kwh consumed (though my current shunt is calibrated a bit high right now, purposely, in reality it aught to be a bit lower), 25.6 wh/mile.

It's interesting how the regen works on these infineon controllers. Essentially I managed to get about 4 amps regen current coming down a large hill. However, I have regen braking disabled. This actually works well because I don't want to hit the battery with huge slugs of current anyway.

I ride motorcycles every day, but there is just something about a bicycle that doesn't make any noise and can cruise at 30, its awesome.

I went through a local festival too (Fairport canal days), and needless to say I got a look or two . I walked it through the crowd (try doing that with a motorcycle) and pretty much every person I passed said something either to me or just out loud to themselves. And I thought this was a little LESS conspicuous than it could have been

At the Rochester Hamfest I managed to pick up a nice panel-mount ammeter which I'm going to use to build a better charger and a set of 15V computer speakers which I plan to mount on the bike somehow.

[grindz145]

Put another 56 miles on yesterday!!

Average speed 23, average wh/mile 27, 1.6Kwh. Started out at 63 ish volts, ended up with about 56V. I suspect it would sit at this voltage for a LONG time, another 100mi at least before dropping much more.

It did drop out on me and I lost a phase. I still haven't terminated the phase wires on the motor correctly, and on of the bullet connectors I have jammed into a powerpole, came out. Need to fix this soon. In the mean time I just electrical taped it back together

I have been babying it until now but I am starting to really dump alot of current through it. I'm not shy to dump 20a through the motor continuously, and peak around 35 (yeah I know I'm being a wus but I'm waiting to really run it hard until I have a temperature sensor installed)

Up to about 217miles on the clock now, just a baby, still working out the kinks:D


I've ridden all kinds of bikes all over the country, but there is nothing like the feeling of flying down the road on an ebike, so smooth and quiet.

[grindz145]

Sport Touring Ebike Hearts Dirt Jumper: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19396

[grindz145]

Took a lot of time re-jiggering a bunch of little things yesterday. Lost the bolt on the torque arm so I set that up with some lock tite. Connectorized a bunch of things that should have been already. Then did about 50 miles last night, all the while pumping tunes from a set of computer speakers. Used the Halogen light from Ebikes.ca as well. What a nice product! Especially for the 10 bucks I paid for it:D

I passed 2 currie ebikes on the way home, talk about surreal. The chances of that around here are practically 0. Up to about 360 miles on the bike now.It's really at a point I can ride it every day without worrying now.

[grindz145]

Rolled over 1000mi today. Still going strong. No problems to report at all in 1kmi except a couple of flats due to a crappy rim strip. Routinely pulling 60 Amps at takeoff...

[grindz145]

Havn't ridden a ton this fall because of having to ride to school in the cold-rain after work 80mph on the freeway on the ebike is still frowned upon...

Im at about 1200 miles and I rode to the local hackerspace in rochester the other night. I put a connector on for my gerbing heated jacket liner and gloves. It was a windy and cold (30 degrees) ride out to the city. The gerbings were fantastic. Not cold at all, nice and toasty. On the way home I found that the snapdeck of the xtracycle was dragging on the tire...ugh. I just snapped off and pulled it away from the tire for the rest of the 20 miles home. All the while, I was trying to figure out in my head what would allow the top of the xtracycle to bend such that it would hit the tire. When I got home I came to the realization that the back portion of the xtracycle must be bent (the section behind the axle). The xtracycle can handle a huge amount of cargo but it specifies that it needs to be in front of the axle for obvious reasons. Since my pack was kind of slanting backward, the better part of the 80 lbs was on the rear of the xtracycle and over time this was forcing it down.

It shouldn't be a terrible fix, but it's about time to start tearing it down for an upgrade to version 2.0. Here's what I'm thinking:

Needs:
-Remount batteries rigidly to the frame with the help of a Wideloader kit (xtracycle accessory).
-Reinforce the xtracycle and add struts (somehow) to the main bicycle frame
-Rebuild wiring harness as cleanly as possible
-Add USB charging regulator
-New crank with large top ring (60 tooth?)
-Adjust brake cables

Wants:
-Install Delta-Wye switching relays into the hub-motor (Do I really need 40+mph....) might be handy during a cross-country tour
-Beef up phase wires leading
-Install Thermal Sensors
-Drill ventillation holes in side-covers
(I'm not sure how I feel about this for weather-resistance
-Mount for my phone / camera
-twist throttle
-Integrated rear light (powered by main battery pack)


I'm considering a very long trip with it next summer. Maybe a cross-the-US tour. So it really has to stay reliable, and so far it has been fairly reliable even with the crappy mounting setup.