Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

[t3sla]

My understanding is that the aus post bikes have undergone some kind of approval process - not sure of the specifics.Power output is limited by the controller & when measured at the motor is within the 200 watt limit. This approach was adopted to improve motor life, the smaller motors suffering premature failure due to the constant stop - start riding. The main maintenance issue now is brake wear for the same reason.

If this is the case then it opens up a lot of possibilities.

Yup, That's pretty much spot on

[sn0wchyld]

That really is quite stupid. I can average 30 on my racer already with no electric assist.

even more stupid when you think that most people can hit over 30 on the flat on a normal bike. just seems stupid that with assistance you cant go above 25, without, you can do 60+ if you can manage it.

Right now we can fly below the radar. I'm happy to leave it that way.

[bandaro]

25km/h would be ridiculous. The average commute is more like 30km/h, so cyclists would still be going the same speed, just a little faster up a hill... When I'm in a hurry going the 4-5 km to places, I average just above 40km/h on my crappy old theft proof junky bike, without a motor and with fat tyres, and that includes the time stopped/going through crowds. Isn't the US and EU laws 25 mp/h? that is more like 35-38km/h so that is far more reasonable.

I am happy to be sensible and fly under the radar for the time being, but when change does come, I just hope it is inclusive.

[veloman]

Is what everyone seems to be missing is that, at least in the US, you are a sitting duck on nearly every roadway if you are not going near the speed limit. 30kph? Seriously? Cars go 60-80kph on roads with 40-50kph limits all the time.

The problem is that fast moving traffic makes everything dangerous.

Multi-use paths? That's another story. First, pedestrians need to stay to the side and not block the route. They completely block the path ALL THE TIME.
Next, cyclists need to ride reasonably. That means slowing when necessary, but it also means that if you are on an open stretch with no one around, it's perfectly safe to go 35-40kph. So I'm not totally for strict 25kph limits on paths. I ride empty paths at 50kph on this one downhill, never hurt a fly. Not for long though, I usually keep it around 30-35ph, sometimes I even stop or ride through the grass to pass pedestrians.

Pedestrians and cyclists need to be separated in some way, if possible. Our city engineer mentioned how they try to design a bikeway for 40kph, as a design standard. That means it feels ridiculously safe at 25kph.

All I do know is that I rather be in control riding a bike path faster than everyone else, than to be on a road and be 100% 'on it' knowing everything that is going on, especially behind me. The roads are deadly, you have distracted drivers floating through your path without a care in the world. These ridiculously slow limits for the best urban-suburban transit mode are unfair. I have a drivers license, that should be enough to allow to travel a safe speed.

I'm not really complaining, as I can ride how I want without issue, but for you guys who are hassled for >200watts - that's just sad you have to deal with that.

[sn0wchyld]

....
I'm not really complaining, as I can ride how I want without issue, but for you guys who are hassled for >200watts - that's just sad you have to deal with that.

deal with it? pah, I ignore it!!! I just hope that we can continue to fly under the radar for many years to come... wistful thinking maybe, but we can all hope eh?

[t3sla]

Nah officer, I was running at 100V with only 2amps so that means I was under the limit

[whatever]

the australian auspost bikes, to be legal on 36v system ( i'm assuming they are using lithium) with bmc motor would be
5.5amps max to be legal ( at around 80% efficiency).............( other battery types max amps would be very similar)........a bmc motor using 5.5amps max would be very very very very poor , if it would run at all with load on it. I've seen the auspost bike around here, I think I could be fairly confident they are not under 200watts peak.
I tried a standard non geared brushless motor on 200watt peak ( 48v system) by adjusting controller max amps via the shunt and it WOULDN'T EVEN RUN PROPERLY!!!! it wouldn't start you from a standstill, had to get it running by pedal first then it would run, just enough power to push you along a flat.........completely useless.

[schmidty_81]

This is my workaround for this silly law...

Just print out one of these...

warninglabel.jpg (35.07 KiB) Viewed 273 times

onto something like this...

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/pr ... per/AUPS64

Slap it on the side of the hub motor and Bob's your Uncle.

If they're going to be silly enough to not spell out how exactly it is to be rated or even who it should be rated by we might as well just rate it ourselves and be equally as vague.

Take that crazy government laws!... Check Mate.

[Hyena]

onto something like this...

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/pr ... per/AUPS64

Slap it on the side of the hub motor and Bob's your Uncle.

Those stickers aren't waterproof and will fall off/look crap in 5 minutes. Ideally you want something vinyl based or specifically waterproof
How very deceitful of you towards our govt anyway

[schmidty_81]

onto something like this...

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/pr ... per/AUPS64

Slap it on the side of the hub motor and Bob's your Uncle.

Those stickers aren't waterproof and will fall off/look crap in 5 minutes. Ideally you want something vinyl based or specifically waterproof
How very deceitful of you towards our govt anyway

I thought those stickers would be lousy too, so did the guy in the shop, but I thought I'd just give it a try and see how it went. It's been on for about 10 months now and still looks fine, I've ridden in the rain and everything too.

Agreed, it is a little on the deceitful side though.

[Hobbit]

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." - Thomas Jefferson

[d8veh]

onto something like this...

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/pr ... per/AUPS64

Slap it on the side of the hub motor and Bob's your Uncle.

Those stickers aren't waterproof and will fall off/look crap in 5 minutes. Ideally you want something vinyl based or specifically waterproof
How very deceitful of you towards our govt anyway

I made some nice labels for my Bafang BPM motor using a standard cheapo laser printer (doesn't work with ink-jet). Design your own label; get some of that 2" wide shiny aluminium tape; print your label on normal paper to see where it's positioned; lay a piece of the aluminium tape on top of the print with it's backing still in place; fix it in position by using normal selotape just over the edges; put the paper with tape back in the printer and print again; cover the image with 2" wide clear selotape to make it weather-proof; cut out the label; peel the backing and stick in place. Mine have been on for about 18 months now and still look totally professional.

Just a reminder that The Speedict can limit power by software and has a very quick option to switch the governor on/off via bluetooth, so you can switch on the governor while your bike is being inspected. Just make sure that you pedal all the time and you're panting hard when they stop you to match your story of pedalling very hard.

I don't have a photo, but here's aphoto of a frame label I did with the same method to show compliance:

[adrian_sm]

http://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/genera ... ing/10607/

30 May 2012. Australia will adopt the Euro standard for e-bikes, clearing the way for the major bike brands to introduce the latest, modern e-bike products into Australian markets. The move should lead to substantial growth in the use of e-bikes in Australia, opening up the benefits of bike riding to a wider range of people. Some Euro standard e-bikes have been available locally, but the market has been dominated by Chinese machines that the local bikes retailers were reluctant to be associated with. Quality was poor, service and spare parts restricted and durability suspect. E-bikes have boomed in Europe in recent years and have been responsible for keeping millions of older people cycling who otherwise would have been hanging up the bike for good. The move came when the Gillard government's Parliamentary Secretary for Infrastructure and Transport, Catherine King, announced changes to the national vehicle safety standards. "This change in the Australian Design Rules will encourage modern electric bicycles as a healthy alternative to other means of transport,” Ms King said. “With the National Cycling Strategy 2011-16 aiming to double the number of people riding by 2016, the Government is keen to work with the cycling community to implement reforms that promote healthy lifestyles. Ms King said that changes to the standard mean the allowable power output has now increased from 200 to 250 watts giving a higher level or performance, while maintaining safety by restricting powered speed to 25 km/h. Riders are required to pedal to access the power or to reach greater speeds than 25 km/h. The change also means new construction standards for batteries, cables and connections as well as other requirements such as braking performance and the strength of frames. Ms King said the changes are an important first step towards an overall review by Austroads of alternative vehicles, which would also include mobility scooters, and a key action identified in Australia’s National Road Safety Strategy 2011-20. “It’s important that this continues to be a national process that is supported by all governments,” Ms King said. Ms King praised state and territory authorities for working constructively with the Commonwealth on this change. However, she said that changes to state and territory road rules may be necessary to allow use of the new electric bicycles and advised people to contact their state road authorities to confirm local provisions. The standard that has now been adopted is EN 15194.

[adrian_sm]

http://www.bicycles.net.au/2012/05/aust ... port-laws/

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012L ... ement/Text

[Diamondback]

a step in the right direction, but not far enough.

i say we should have a 750W limit and have a speed limit imposed instead of the ridiculously low 250W.

Jason.

[full-throttle]

25km/h

I can run faster than that..

Time to switch bikes

PS saw a few posties with their new "200W legal" bikes. None of them even pedal

[Diamondback]

PS saw a few posties with their new "200W legal" bikes. None of them even pedal

i saw one of those today too, but he was pedaling, quite hard too.

[full-throttle]

Meh. Prob forgot to charge the battery.

Was it a lime green with a front MAC?

[Diamondback]

he was on a yellow one. didn't get a good enough look to know what the motor was, but it was a very small hub.
about the size of the ezee motor. saw him going up a hill near Marrickville in sydney.

jason.

[whatever]

wholly **** batman!!
thanks adrian sm for posting those links,
this is the change that we've been waiting for, for about 10 years now.........
fantastic news, the 25km/hr is not good, but hey if you've got your legs moving who knows if its the motor or the legs getting you over 25km/hr
this is the important part
"increases the allowable power from 200 to 250 watts and specifies this as a continuous rating"
its changed from 200watts peak power ( 130watts continous) to 250watts continous which is approx 750watts peak!!!!
So all of a sudden the 99% of ebikes in australia that were illegal are now legal ( apart from being able to go over 25km/hr with no assist)........... a small price to pay for the increase in power limit.
It will probably take 20years to change from 25km/hr to something higher but who cares, now things might really get going in australia................about time.
There will likely be some paper come out that mentions the peak power also, 750watt is a guestimate, but should be pretty close.
fantastic

[sn0wchyld]

the 25km/h thing is a bit of a joke. Call me pesimistc but I see allot of people (legal or otherwise) getting pulled up by the fuzz cause they're going too fast on their ebike, even if the motor isn't doing anything. I mean, if a lycra can pedal at 50km'h and not bother anyone, what difference does it make if a ebike goes 50?

the change to continuous power is a good move, but I wont be getting excited 'till they tell people how that's measured. the last one was apparently 200w peak input power, not peak output .


It all still seems kinda stupid to me when I can go out and strap a 2.5+kw 50cc gass motor to my bike and burn around at any speed I like under the speed limit, and though its 'frowned apon' by the cops, it is in fact 100% legal. but I get on my 300w ebike and hit 26km'h, or go faster than 6km'h without pedalling and balm. breaking the law. and I'm pretty sure my ebike at 50km'h is going to both handle those speeds better and stop faster than a road racing bike.

sorry for the rant. long day... and the 'nanny state' kind of attitude in Aus kinda pisses me off. Ill go sleep now .

[adrian_sm]

Here is a link to the EN15194 standard that manufacturers need to design to, and get tested against to legally sell the bikes in the EU. I haven't read through it properly yet but this is what I noticed when I quickly scanned through it, and discussed it over on this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39671#p583494

4.2.7 Maximum power measurement
4.2.7.1 Measurement at the engine shaft
The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches
its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.

NOTE Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour.

In circumstance where the power is measured directly at the shaft of the electronic motor, the result of the
measurement shall be decreased by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty and then by 1,05 to
include for example the transmission losses, unless the real values of these losses are determined.

4.2.7.2 Alternative method

When the power is measured at the wheel, the result of the measurement is the reading value.
Annex D gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.

The way I read it, it seems to boil down to what the manufacturer claims the motor can thermally withstand (on a 100% duty cycle for an ebike presumably). Which is wide open for reinterpretation, since is wholly depends on the motor speed, and the temp limit you feel like setting. It is more about protecting the purchaser from a motor melting, than limiting the motors power output. Which would allow you to slap on a 250w sticker on anything, by using a stupidly low thermal limit, then allow people to run it hotter.

Weird standard.

I can't believe my first read is accurate though, I might just have to wade through the whole thing and see how they actaully test it.

[schmidty_81]

I can't understand the logic behind having a blanket speed limit like that, that would be like saying Hybrid vehicles like the Prius are only allowed to go 60kmph running on electric, but unlimited on fuel.

Also you could just have a governor set that your bike only goes 25kmph under throttle only electric power, then as soon as you exert any effort whatsoever through the pedals it unleashes the rest, how could it be determined exactly how much extra power is coming from the pedalling.

I think whoever's in charge of making these rules needs to actually go down to a busy bike track in peak hour and find out just how much slower 25kmph is than the rest of the bike traffic, I used to go along the bike track from Glenferrie road into the city in Melbourne and I can tell you that going 25kmph along there would be like going 60kmph on a busy 100kmph freeway... It's just unsafe.

[Hyena]

Cool, my motor is compliant with the new rules! At 25km/hr in street mode on the flat it draws around 5 battery amps to maintain this speed, which is bang on 250w when allowing for motor efficiency. Obviously peak power is a little more than this when accelerating hard or going up hills but that's to be expected. In the same fashion, ford doesn't publish that my XR6T will consume over 60 l/100km of fuel ( 5 times the quoted fuel efficiency) when booting it up a hill or otherwise accelerating hard.

Time to attach some angel wings to the back of my body armour so everyone knows how good I am

[adrian_sm]

For ebikes to fit into the new alternative EN15194 type AB definition they would have to be pedelecs. That only allow power when the rider is pedaling forwards, and are below 25kph. So that rules out all throttle only bikes from this category. Leaving us with the old 200w definition.

I have read through EN15194 again now, and still think is is pretty crappy in describing the power limits. The 25kph limit is pretty well described. Saying no more assistance from the motor above that speed. Period. End of story. No good. The power definition on the other hand has holes all through it. It can be measured in two ways:
1) Section 4.2.7 - As per EN60034-1 - when measuring the power at the motor shaft.
This definition (as I explained above) is all about the safe operating power of a motor, and does not define the actual power output. FAIL
This would let the manufacturer just rate it for 250w, saying if you load it at that it will last. Done.
But the motor in use could be loaded much more allowing higher powers without restriction, and they just rely on the 25kph limit stopping people getting stupid.

OR they have a different method to measure it at the wheel.

2) Annex D - Maximum Power Measurement - Alternative Method - when measuring at the wheel
Test method is hit the throttle from a dead stop (no pedalling allowed, PAS sensor overridden) and time how long it takes to travel 20m, with the bike loaded to 150kg. Then plug it into a formula they specify to determine power.
P = m * (2*D^2) / T^3
P = 150kg * 2*(20 metres)^2 / time^3

The way I read it, if your bike travels 20m from a deadstop in less than 7.8 seconds, your over the power limit. So it is in effect an acceleration limit.

This would be easy to design around if you we happy with a soft start.

Bottom line this new EN15194 definition is really about allowing EU bikes to be sold here. But due to the 25kph power limit, won't be that attractive to the young and fit, but will be quite good for those that like a more leisurely pace as you can get more power than what our current laws allow.