Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

[megacycle]

Looks like a lot of cops are bike curious then and just wanna have a good sticky beek and a good yarn to ebikers that's good to know probably cos were not noisy and burning 2 stroke may be a lot of pro sentiment for the cause.
If they look tidy might help too black duct tape not grey

[whatever]

just reading the eu definition of pedelecs, the maximum voltage is 48v nominal
its quite a detailed document ( the link adrian posted a few pages back is the older version ( 2009) there is a newer one out ( 2011)
adopting the eu standard by aus govt saved them a hell of alot of work.......we used to call it copying at school! bad government very naughty

[adrian_sm]

Got link to the latest? Would save me a search.

Cheers in advance.

[megacycle]

just reading the eu definition of pedelecs, the maximum voltage is 48v nominal
its quite a detailed document ( the link adrian posted a few pages back is the older version ( 2009) there is a newer one out ( 2011)
adopting the eu standard by aus govt saved them a hell of alot of work.......we used to call it copying at school! bad government very naughty

Always a few years behind. Slack and clever.

[Hyena]

we used to call it copying at school! bad government very naughty

As we used to say at uni: copying from one source is plagarism, copying from many sources is research
It'd be nice if they chose to copy the US guidelines instead!

[chopper_elec]

we used to call it copying at school! bad government very naughty

As we used to say at uni: copying from one source is plagarism, copying from many sources is research
It'd be nice if they chose to copy the US guidelines instead!

Your telling me, imagine being able to go upto 600-700watt motors. That would be awesome.

I'd be happy with a 500w limit so I won't have to change.

In a worst case scenario, how would it be proved that the bike was not pedal powered to that speed, and if the bike was rolling with momentum how would it be proven that it was from pedalling that got you upto that speed?

It seems like a lot to check on the side of the road/bike track.

If the bicycle was confiscated, would it need to be towed back to the impound?

Hyena - We have matching goggles I see

[schmidty_81]

Someone who's skilled at writing letters should seriously write to the powers that be and say that seeing as though they're just copying laws anyway, why not copy the US ones.

I can see where the 25kmph limit fits into the nanny state kind of governing that we have and it's fine (personally I don't care, I'll keep breaking the law)... But I just reckon at 25kmph max legal E-Bikes are NEVER going to take off over here.

It's probably fine in Europe where you're pottering around a small congested hilly town but the fact of the matter is Australia is really, really spread out and fairly flat also. I'm pretty sure Perth is the most spread out city in the world (not really sure how that's measured, but if you go there you get the idea). Going 25 you're never going to get anywhere.

[sn0wchyld]

Someone who's skilled at writing letters should seriously write to the powers that be and say that seeing as though they're just copying laws anyway, why not copy the US ones.

I can see where the 25kmph limit fits into the nanny state kind of governing that we have and it's fine (personally I don't care, I'll keep breaking the law)... But I just reckon at 25kmph max legal E-Bikes are NEVER going to take off over here.

It's probably fine in Europe where you're pottering around a small congested hilly town but the fact of the matter is Australia is really, really spread out and fairly flat also. I'm pretty sure Perth is the most spread out city in the world (not really sure how that's measured, but if you go there you get the idea). Going 25 you're never going to get anywhere.

they do it by measuring 'population density'. Australia as a whole is something like (dont quote me) 1 person every 70sq m vs somewhere like japan where its 1 per square foot . or where here we have about 4m of coastline per person vs about 17cm per person in the usa. but yea, the distances in Australia are notably larger than those in other countries.

The sad thing is people have been campaigning for this stuff for litillarly decades. When I first stated looking to build a ebike I found old forums from the late 90's of people who had tried to get laws changed. partitions, letters, emails, they all fell on deaf ears. I almost gave up building a ebike when I found that it'd never be legal. but then I took an arrow to the knee and built one anyway, at a mere 20x the limit...

Seriously though, adopting the USA laws would be tits. I'd happily ride around legally on 750-1kw (at least, while im on the road), or with no limit other than like 30mph for commuting. its only because 200w is such a joke of a power limit that I choose to ignore it and ride 'under the radar' as much as i can.

[chopper_elec]

See the difference here is that i'm sure most people are wanting to do the right thing but are so limited that its worth the risk.

I am not sure I could see the risk as running a red light or stealing something, but more like crossing the road safely but not through the recommended crossing points/intersections. If done safely there is no reason to harm.

Same thing with higher powered bicycles, considerations to the other users on the road. I would personally see more danger driving next to someone that was doing 25km an hour in a 80km zone than someone cruising at 40km an hour or so.

I'm not quite sure why a power rating has anything to do with it if the speed was restricted.

[Hyena]

Same reason why some states impose a power:weight ratio limit on cars and bikes for P platers. Anyone can speed on any motorbike or in any car but they figure it's the power (more specifically the power to go from slow to fast very quickly) that will get them into trouble. Which is true to an extent. As a former hoon who's settled down since leaving his 20s behind I can see why these laws are i place and I don't disagree with them. If I had the car I have now when I was 17 I'm sure I would have gotten into alot more trouble than I did anyway
But yeah, this doesn't transfer to ebikes - it's not like someones going to throw themself off the back of their illegally powerful 1000w ebike and into a pole at 60km/hr...

[sn0wchyld]

See the difference here is that i'm sure most people are wanting to do the right thing but are so limited that its worth the risk.

I am not sure I could see the risk as running a red light or stealing something, but more like crossing the road safely but not through the recommended crossing points/intersections. If done safely there is no reason to harm.

Same thing with higher powered bicycles, considerations to the other users on the road. I would personally see more danger driving next to someone that was doing 25km an hour in a 80km zone than someone cruising at 40km an hour or so.

I'm not quite sure why a power rating has anything to do with it if the speed was restricted.

yea i am meaning one or the other. limiting both is kinda stupid. the only reason to limit speed (less than whats legal on roads anyway) is that most 'average' bike components wont handle 50+km'h safely. i still remember bombing some hills as a kid on an old bike... major speed wobbles at 60km'h was scary as hell. doing 60 on my norko, a bike made to handle speed, is nothing.

[chopper_elec]

I tend to be a bit of a chicken and find even 35km an hour quite quick on a traditional bike. I've had pocket bikes in the past and have clocked up 70-80km an hour on them and that is scary enough being that close to the ground doh.

I personally would be quite happy with an extra 5-10km an hour though, as I mainly stick to bike tracks since I feel a bit safer on them than the road. I'm courteous to other riders/people and wouldn't be flying past any blind corners without looking or considering the "what if".

[Architectonic]

Obviously we need an intermediate class with additional safety standards and requirements, but this isn't going to happen unless someone else (Europe) does it first.

Electric scooters, the few that are registrable aren't a terrible idea, but your power to weight ratio turns to crap, resulting in much poorer battery life in stop-start traffic.

[chopper_elec]

Obviously we need an intermediate class with additional safety standards and requirements, but this isn't going to happen unless someone else (Europe) does it first.

Electric scooters, the few that are registrable aren't a terrible idea, but your power to weight ratio turns to crap, resulting in much poorer battery life in stop-start traffic.

Something that has always got me is that the rules aren't consistent between all types of cars/trucks etc.

For example, you need seat belts in a car but not in a Bus or a train, if I got up in my car stood out of the sunroof/convertible roof without a seat belt i'd get pulled over straight away.

[Sunder]

Obviously we need an intermediate class with additional safety standards and requirements, but this isn't going to happen unless someone else (Europe) does it first.

Electric scooters, the few that are registrable aren't a terrible idea, but your power to weight ratio turns to crap, resulting in much poorer battery life in stop-start traffic.

Something that has always got me is that the rules aren't consistent between all types of cars/trucks etc.

For example, you need seat belts in a car but not in a Bus or a train, if I got up in my car stood out of the sunroof/convertible roof without a seat belt i'd get pulled over straight away.

I work in a field that has a lot to do with risk management. And the question I hate most is "Are we secure", or "Are we safe".

What most people don't understand is that risk is always mitigated, transferred, managed, or something else. It's very rarely completely removed.

Most of our laws are structured around harm minimisation, and balancing risk versus convenience. How many people die in bus crashes each year? How many in train crashes? Compare that to how many people die in car accidents - perhaps consider how that number would rise if seat belts weren't mandatory.

People will argue that people still do die in bus crashes, and that people still die despite wearing seat belts: We had a similar conversation in your "What would you reset the limit to" thread. They've missed the point, and throw the baby out with the bath water. Somewhere, someone decided that the benefit on cars was worth it, but the benefit on buses wasn't. That assessment may be wrong, or you might disagree with it, but that doesn't mean it's a useless law.

[chopper_elec]

Yeah very valid point, I think its more about there being more cars on the road than buses, it would all be scaled up accordingly i'd presume if there was more buses than cars on the road.

Its definitely a touchy subject though as we all have different abilities and skills, but the issue is that others that may not be able to control or make reasonable decisions will "legally" be able to ride at "New Legal Speed" and with "New Power Limit" in their hands.

That is the "unknown" that no one can really "gurantee" the safety. Personally they would receive more complaints overall from people disaproving afterwards than there is now fighting for it. For them its a no brainer to go with what "works" in Europe for the general public.

I know that cyclists already have a hard enough time defending their safe space on the road (which is why I don't ride on the roads), let alone the "New Riders" that will be pushing the limits and putting pressure on the slower riders/peddle power only cyclists to hurry up in the bike lanes/Left Lanes. From the people that i've met in life, I could gurantee a fair percentage would keep to less than 25km an hour riding as a comfortable speed even if they could go faster.

[schmidty_81]

I see your point. I reckon the argument to be made for faster e-bikes is that the traffic is so bad and the public transport so woefull that it's sending people carazy (sic). People are always going on about mental health these days.

Honestly there's a story just about every week of some road rage incident going terribly wrong, I reckon if I were stuck in a car in bumper to bumper traffic all day I'd go mad... There is an alternative people... E-Bikes, thing is though they aren't going to catch on in Australia if they can only go 25! The country's too big and everyone lives too far apart.

Where I work there's a firm of traffic engineers next door and I was having a chat to them one day and he said even a 5% decrease in traffic volume makes a massive difference to the traffic flow... That's why whenever there's an industrial RDO or something like that there's such a noticeable difference.

[chopper_elec]

It seems that all the right decisions are made too late, think of how much of a disaster the fossil fuel combustion engine has had on the world in the last 100 years or so?

It took how many billions of years for the world to evolve into what it was, for us to kill it within 100 years?

You would think the world would be completely revolving around new methods of transport, not just charging people for the carbon they are leaving behind.

I have 100 different ways on improving our carbon footprint and ebikes has always been one unbelievable innovation on a an already tried transport method being the bicycle.

I think every new house should have Solar Power systems severly subsidised to encourage people. Imagine how much we would all save long term, and think of all the houses using energy that would otherwise go to waste (solar power).

[Scruffoid]

The Problem that we all face here is that laws are made by majority decisions so that politicians can get elected.

If the majority of people in a place think something is right than that is the law. Take a look at something like the age of consent laws around the world as an example. Where some think 18 is OK other countries have it at 10 years old, but that is what they think is the right thing.

So my point is that while we have so many car drivers on the road that think that bikes shouldn't be there at all, or that they don't pay rego and the many other reasons that makes all other forms of roads users dislike bikes, the rules will never be made on any grounds of be reasonable points and commonsense.

Do you think the bike paths in the sydney CBD did any good for the career of the person who approved em. I think not!

The only way your gonna see more people on Ebikes and the laws changing is when we actually run outta Petrol all together as the majority of people would rather just drive smaller cars and save the petrol then start going to an ebike. They will transfer to e-cars before e-bikes as well so the laws are there to stay and any chages will have to be agreed to by the mass of bike hating people.

As always look like your being good and hope you keep getting away with it

[sn0wchyld]

,...

As always look like your being good and hope you keep getting away with it

story of my life

[chopper_elec]

,...

As always look like your being good and hope you keep getting away with it

story of my life

x2 lol

[chopper_elec]

I'm really curious of the stories of fellow ebikers that may have been picked up and questioned. What was the main

If the person investigating knew what they were talking about, how was it handled from there?

If someone was technically running something with a bit too much power how would it be handled.

I haven't read any stories in Australia about any ebikes being picked up for power levels and there is no way to actually detect the values without a dyno.

I just want to enjoy the same speeds that i'm able to do by cycling which is only 5km or so more. I feel somewhat tempted to settle for a 200-250w specced motor so I know I can just enjoy it without the hassle.

[Samd]

The new ebike laws were announced here in Ballarat by our local MP. I've dealt with her in a corporate sense before and she is ok.

Thinking of inviting her out with a few ebikers somehow to break the ice and see if we can further alert her to the cause, without setting off alarm bells about 8kW croborgs suddenly being strapped to kids' scooters and ridden by kids who'd otherwise go trainsurfing....

[schmidty_81]

I'm really curious of the stories of fellow ebikers that may have been picked up and questioned. What was the main

If the person investigating knew what they were talking about, how was it handled from there?

If someone was technically running something with a bit too much power how would it be handled.

I haven't read any stories in Australia about any ebikes being picked up for power levels and there is no way to actually detect the values without a dyno.

I just want to enjoy the same speeds that i'm able to do by cycling which is only 5km or so more. I feel somewhat tempted to settle for a 200-250w specced motor so I know I can just enjoy it without the hassle.

I'm in Melbourne Victoria and I ride a 36 Volt 500 Watt front wheel mounted e-bike every day (unless it's really wet) to work and have for the last 3 years or so. The bike itself is good for 40-45 kmph on the straight so by no means the fastest thing on the bike track but at the same time well above our Nanny State laws.

I stick to the bike tracks mostly and am a very sensible rider, I share your sentiment that I just want to be able to go the same speeds I can if I rode a flashy road bike, for me it's just economics all up my bike probably cost about $1,000 I could have spent this on an average road bike, all the lycra and that instead and while this would be healthier for me I know myself and I'm lazy. I'd probably only actually ride it once a week the rest of the time I'd be reaching for the car keys, with the E-Bike there's no excuse so it's every day, you still do get some exercise too.

I've ridden past the police many times, some days I actually ride directly past the Camberwell police station, once I was going down a side street and a divvy van waited to let me go past so I gave him a wave and everything. I've never been pulled over or questioned at all.

In my travels I've run into quite a few other E-Bikers in the area, most of them were slightly higher powered than 200/250 Watts. This question has always come up and and most people also haven't been questioned. The only one person who had been pulled up (twice actually) that I've run into was doing about 20km's per day on the road in an electric tricycle. Both times the cops were basically just curious that it was actually also a bike (ie:// that the pedals worked, so not just a motorbike). The actual power wasn't tested or called into question (and his was definitely higher than legal), I guess from your police officers point of view it's just too hard to test and not worth the paperwork.

I've actually got a 200 watt model also because I was worried about the legality and I just never ride it, it's too slow... If you do get tempted to settle for the legal model let me know and I'll sell you mine because I'm never using it again... I strongly suggest you don't though.

[Architectonic]

I think it depends on how you ride. If you are always pedalling, you won't attract much attention <40km/h. Stealth batteries, such as hiding it in the Falcon EV bag help too. Keep in mind that cops see lycra-clad cyclists doing 40km/h regularly and so this is considered 'comparably safe' to most.

I've never actually been questioned about how much power the bike has. ('500w' MAC motor)