Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

[Hyena]

In SA can ride 50cc electric equivalent, say1500W, on a full car license.
In NSW understand if its automatic equivalent 125cc,

Nope, in NSW you need a full bike license so there's no benefit in buying a scooter over a proper motor bike

[chopper_elec]

It's not the police who make me want to have a legal bike, its the lawyers. All the police can do is fine you. If your on and illegal bike and are involved in an accident it does not take a great leap of imagination to see some laywer making a case against you. Even if you haven't got much in the way of assets this kind of issue just makes life very difficult for months or years.

The lawyer would no doubt still need to bring evidence to the board which would require accurate testing. Even 250w motors would likely pull 400-500w at take off/up hills.

The same legal conditions could be applied if you were causing an accident and they were able to pickup that you were speeding at the time.

Would a cycle analyst set to 250w and limited electronically to 25km speed limit be suffice? You could prove that the motor has been detuned.

[megacycle]

Was trying to make sense of this ;
http://www.moneysavingaussie.com/Pages/ ... mania.aspx
Not trying to ride over your territory Jay must be misinterpreting something there,
its gov stuff so suppose gobbledy gook is to be expected.

[Hyena]

What I was getting at is you can't ride with just a car license. Yeah you're right, it's not a "full" bike license as such but it seems you have to do most of the same tests and jump through the same hoops as doing a motorbike license so you may as well take the extra step and be able to ride what you like. Or you could stay on your L plates doing the above and ride a motorbike anyway.

Anyway, bring on a >250w ebike class with a nominal registration fee and I'll sign up

I'd probably have a license by now if my wife didn't forbid me from buying a motorbike. Just like the police, it seems as long as it has pedals and she sees my legs moving I can get away with it The regulator in a skirt can make my life more miserable than the one in the blue shirt

[megacycle]

That sux was hoping for a loophole there for you NSW blokes.
Us SA blokes might be able to abuse that 1500w though. No pedaling allowed
That monster you sold me gangster needs a good flogging and a pusher frame won't hack it for a big setup
Large A123 setups onboard charging cetera.
Mate of a mate wrecks motorbikes, so could be an option.

Yep the boss indoors, got her thumb print tattooed on the forehead too.
She doesn't want me dead yet too, not enough super .

[Hobbit]

Yep, that's it, cook, bottle washer AND senior saergent of "the fun police". I've got one of those too. And + 1 on pedalling = universal legitimacy.

[megacycle]

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[whatever]

to limit a controller to the correct power limit you need to know the peak power limit, as it stands its given as continous power rating of 250watts.
I haven't read all the european paper standards but until someone finds what is the equivalent peak power is being used by the australian govt regs. you wont
be able to limit to 250watt continuos. My guess is it will be around 700 -750watts but until someone finds it printed in some relevant document no one will know how to set controllers to exact power limit and be street legal.

[whatever]

a quick google search all I could find is motorino cycle which is saying 250watts continous is equivalent of 600watts peak using eu standard
sounds about right, its quite difficult to find a definition that relates continous to peak power.
You could probably add 20% to the 600watts due to losses in motor should be pretty close but the exact peak power level allowed
its necessary to find out what it is.
Adding 20% for losses gives 720watts peak power so I would go with that until someone finds exact figure ( assuming measuring power used measured at battery terminals).
Fortunately this is pretty close to the peak power used by most ebikes running on 48v nominal and approx 18max at controller.

[Diamondback]

im not so sure of those figures.

my ezee kit with the stock ezee 20A controller would pull 1000W peak and around 690W constant.
on 48V and that was limiting the current to only 15A at the CA. The CA was correctly calibrated to the shunt value too.

my new setup on the trike will be slightly less, as im now running 44V nominal (12S lipo) with the 20" ezee geared hub motor.

Jason

[t3sla]

press announcement by transport minister on the new pedelec laws within vic should have concluded by this afternoon

hopefully we start to see some articles in the next few days

[whatever]

diamond back:
15amps x 48v = 720watts it would impossible to draw 1000watts,
even at 52v its still only 780watts max
at 20amps 48v its 1040watts but motor losses of about 20% put output down to 832watts
I think you'd be measuring battery output not motor output power.
I've been reading the 15194 2009 document, it references to another paper ( EN 60034-1) which relates to motor power continuous output.
Also theres a new 2012 version of 15194 out now!
My conclusion on all this regulation is its a load of garbage unless you go to court ( which in my view is a high probability if you are a retailer of ebikes). Another interesting point in all this: the supreme court ruling that made moped style ebikes illegal, they are exactly the same technology and electrical components as used in other ebikes, so basically that decision is purely based on the 'look' of the ebike. If it looks like a moped its illegal , if it looks like a pushbike its legal.

Firstly to get a copy of the 2011 regulation is costs money, to get the motor power paper it costs money etc etc
Also for diy people you still cant limit your controller output to be legal unless you know the peak power output allowable at the wheel,
and as far as I can tell the peak power output equivalent of 250watts continous is not published, its certainly not in the 15194 paper,
I was trying to look at the 60034-1 paper to see if it mentions peak power output.......but seems it costs money to get that paper.
I think its necessary to get the peak power limit from the oz authorities but I dont think its worth wasting time on.
All this beauracratic nonsense really gives me the willys.

[adrian_sm]

I believe this law was mainly introduced to allow retailers to import the EU style bikes, which were illegal under the old definition of an ebike in Oz. This is a good move, as Australian bike shops were stuck only being able to sell chinese quality ebikes. Now they will be able to import and sell a huge range of higher quality bikes already available in europe. Unfortunately they are restricted to 25kph/250w.

I agree the regulations are poorly written, as I discussed earlier in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16520&p=589074&hilit=60034#p589074

Here is a copy of the 60034 standard:

IEC 60034-1.pdf

(1020.18 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

But it doesn't help clarify things much, as it was written around putting a rating plate on a generic motors to give the end user confidence that it can handle a certain power load without melting. But now EN15194 is trying to use it to refer to the power potential of the motor on an ebike, which is just wrong.

On ES we usually look at the battery input side peak power, where as the 250w is supposed to be referring to the continuous output power. So once you factor in efficiencies, peak vs continuous, and actual power to the road, the "250w" bikes are probably closer to what people on ES would consider 500w.

I just wish they had also adopted the s-pedelec definition for use in Oz as well, which allows assistance upto 45kph, albiet requiring registration and insurance.

[Diamondback]

You are correct that it was battery draw that I was referring to.
However, if you take into account that 48v isn't 48v (closer to 60v foc)
then my numbers make much more sence.

Also, if you have a measuring device like a CA, mr plod is going to see the W figure, and assume that's motor power.

Either way, I agree that of it looks like a pushbike, you are highly unlikely to ever get noticed.

Jason.

[heathyoung]

Yep - if it flies like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Hyena]

I just wish they had also adopted the s-pedelec definition for use in Oz as well, which allows assistance upto 45kph, albiet requiring registration and insurance.

Nah that's shit too. I wouldn't mind paying some sort of special class ebike rego and insurance but not for 45km/hr. Even a vaguely fit cyclist can pedal that fast with no motor. And then it comes down the to old arguement of "why am I being booked for doing 48km/hr on my ebike when that lycra just rode past and 58km/hr."

I think 50-60km/hr is more useful for actually commuting and keeping up with traffic in many situations and would be a more attractive proposition to convince people to leave their cars at home. If you're going to charge rego and insurance and put more ebikes on the road you also want to ensure they don't make the traffic situation worse by a stream of these riders clogging up the road when the cars would be otherwise doing 60+ km/hr

[sn0wchyld]

Yep - if it flies like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

in my case it flies like a falcon, looks like a walrus and, at least, quacks like a duck, so yea... its a duck

I just wish they had also adopted the s-pedelec definition for use in Oz as well, which allows assistance upto 45kph, albiet requiring registration and insurance.

Nah that's shit too. I wouldn't mind paying some sort of special class ebike rego and insurance but not for 45km/hr. Even a vaguely fit cyclist can pedal that fast with no motor. And then it comes down the to old arguement of "why am I being booked for doing 48km/hr on my ebike when that lycra just rode past and 58km/hr."

I think 50-60km/hr is more useful for actually commuting and keeping up with traffic in many situations and would be a more attractive proposition to convince people to leave their cars at home. If you're going to charge rego and insurance and put more ebikes on the road you also want to ensure they don't make the traffic situation worse by a stream of these riders clogging up the road when the cars would be otherwise doing 60+ km/hr

im with you there... really though I'm all for a second class of ebikes... ie they require you to have a DL and perhaps some 3rd party (assuming its priced right according to the actual risk) and that gives you the same speed limits as anyone else on the road, ie, the actual speed limit, and a generous but not crazy power limit... say 1.5kw. those things in combination are hardly going to create a deathtrap, or even a danger beyond a normal lycra (the additional weight in a crash is marginal compared to the speed you're going), but will at least stop kids and those who lost their normal DL from riding 'em...

[Hyena]

power limit... say 1.5kw. those things in combination are hardly going to create a deathtrap, or even a danger beyond a normal lycra (the additional weight in a crash is marginal compared to the speed you're going), but will at least stop kids and those who lost their normal DL from riding 'em...

Yeah 1.5kw continuous would make for a fine commuter that's a genuine alternative to a car and allows people to get to work without being hot and sweaty. The power limit would in turn limit the speed largely but in any case such a class would have a lesser speed limit than full highway speed. Aren't some moped classes limited to 80km/hr ? I would think this is heaps for such a class. As for the safety vs lycras types, a properly setup ebike would offer superior braking even with the extra weight. As I said in my build thread the other day, these super light carbon framed lycra sleds are way underbraked with little rim brakes considering the speeds they can get up to. If a car cuts them off they haven't got a hope of stopping in time. I'll take my big heavy hydros any day thanks!
They could implement a braking test as part of the registration - kinda of like they do with cars, making sure you can stop in a certain distance.
To properly meet the ADRs though is a huge undertaking. I remember talking to John @ Stealth electric bikes about this and the possiblity of setting up the bikes to be road ridden and the costs were huge, something like $10,000 for an inspection.

[sn0wchyld]

power limit... say 1.5kw. those things in combination are hardly going to create a deathtrap, or even a danger beyond a normal lycra (the additional weight in a crash is marginal compared to the speed you're going), but will at least stop kids and those who lost their normal DL from riding 'em...

Yeah 1.5kw continuous would make for a fine commuter that's a genuine alternative to a car and allows people to get to work without being hot and sweaty. The power limit would in turn limit the speed largely but in any case such a class would have a lesser speed limit than full highway speed. Aren't some moped classes limited to 80km/hr ? I would think this is heaps for such a class. As for the safety vs lycras types, a properly setup ebike would offer superior braking even with the extra weight. As I said in my build thread the other day, these super light carbon framed lycra sleds are way underbraked with little rim brakes considering the speeds they can get up to. If a car cuts them off they haven't got a hope of stopping in time. I'll take my big heavy hydros any day thanks!
They could implement a braking test as part of the registration - kinda of like they do with cars, making sure you can stop in a certain distance.
To properly meet the ADRs though is a huge undertaking. I remember talking to John @ Stealth electric bikes about this and the possiblity of setting up the bikes to be road ridden and the costs were huge, something like $10,000 for an inspection.

yea, adr is pretty much a no go, particularly for a homebrew build...

and yea, ive thought the same about having a minimum break spec, but again it throws up two issues, one that normal bikes dont require such things, and two, that its very hard/expensive to regulate and monitor. perhaps a list of 'approved' brakes might be an option, much like the list of approved motorcycles for learners, and that probably wouldn't need real world testing either, as braking force of a given setup could be calculated well enough of manufacturer specs, and be close enough to ensure 'powerful' braking force.

[Architectonic]

press announcement by transport minister on the new pedelec laws within vic should have concluded by this afternoon

I hope a few pollies will like the concept, rush out and buy some and then realise how slow they are. [/idealist]

[schmidty_81]

Not sure if this link will go to the exact article but if not just search for electric bicycles and it should come up.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx

It's funny my mother in law watched this article and she seemed to think that there was no upper limit on the power... I think it's more that they just neglected to mention the upper limit of 250 watts... It's still encouraging though to see the powers that be encouraging e-bikes.

[ashwright]

That article implies that the 200W limit has been removed.

[Hyena]

I think it's more that they just neglected to mention the upper limit of 250 watts... It's still encouraging though to see the powers that be encouraging e-bikes.

Yeah I'd say so, given then mentioned following europe at the start. It'd be an epic win though if they went costa rica on us and allowed free reign on ebikes
I notice they feature all shitty little bafang style motors in the clip though and no stealths

It's also nice to see the angle is more on transport than exercise, which has been a current limitation to ebikes and the grounds for court rulings being handed out (ie supposed to be primarily pedal powered) Although that could just be the spin that particular article has put on it.

Here's the direct link to the article

http://soc.li/4ggZXtl

[t3sla]

The awkward moment when vicroads don't spell it correctecly

Pedelec, not Pedalec.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferRiders/BikeRiders/PowerAssistedBicycles.htm

We recon it's the Australianisation of the term, throw in an "a" ayyyy she'll be right *asks aussie jester to pass him a cold one*

Guess stealth bikes are '50Watts closer to being road legal"

EDIT, naaaaaww jay/channel 9 beat me to it.
Then again I had this ready that night and in better quality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXhud52SiEw

press announcement by transport minister on the new pedelec laws within vic should have concluded by this afternoon

I hope a few pollies will like the concept, rush out and buy some and then realise how slow they are. [/idealist]

They're actually pretty good as an all round product, they give the right about of power so it's not a lower powered moped aka ES put-put mobile but an actual power assisted bike with nice clear interface which has good scalable power equal to what an old 500watter would be, I'm not sure how gen pop would go on low kW bikes, might turn out to be like the lyrca crowd on crack....

[chopper_elec]

I know this might sound quite different from my opinion a few months back but...

I have got into cycling a lot lately, I bought a Road Bike and i've been riding everywhere using pedal power only. I've clocked in 410km of varied riding in a number of conditions and I am able to maintain around 21km/h for 3-4 hours and can do around 107km distance in one go which has been great. I cruise at 25-30km an hour on a good day and i've peaked at 55km an hour only once (boy that felt quick)

If I was able to maintain 25km an hour for a given distance but had the ability to get up a hill with no worries would make it more "appropriate" for being Electrically assisted then I wouldn't find too much issue with 25km an hour limit. Sorry if it has changed, I think i'm more experienced than I was. Don't get me wrong any faster would be awesome but for punting around the area on pedal power at around 25-30km on the bike tracks quite enjoyable and at a similar pace to what I would normally be able to do on the road bike.

I can comment though that I have never ridden a motorbike though apart from a Pocket Bike doing around 70-80km an hour and that was rather scary haha