Amberwolf's Bolt-Together Semi-Recumbent Cargo Bike

[amberwolf]

Got another bike at Goodwill today; "Built in the USA" it says. Probably means they bolted all the parts onto the frame here.

DSC03021.JPG (13.59 KiB) Viewed 731 times

It is actually a nice light Cromoly 4130 frame, and is even of a height I could mount and ride comfortably, unlike the Schwinn Sierra (which I really like if it just wasn't so tall!).

DSC03013.JPG (53.98 KiB) Viewed 941 times

The stuff on it is of average to low quality, older Shimano SIS with plastic thumbshifters for an 18-speed.

DSC03019.JPG (44.7 KiB) Viewed 941 times

DSC03023.JPG (61.32 KiB) Viewed 941 times

Crankset is at least not a one-piece, but rather a swaged-on 3-ring to a square-taper crank/shaft (which has a plastic housing over it to look like a spider-style crank, rather like the Landrider a friend has).

DSC03022.JPG (46.44 KiB) Viewed 941 times

Brakes are V-brakes, so at least they have studs on the frame.

DSC03015.JPG (41.79 KiB) Viewed 941 times

DSC03014.JPG (66.29 KiB) Viewed 941 times

Rims are aluminum and don't appear to be bent or deformed, but are not trued right now. Steel hubs. Tires are rotted and probably so are the tubes; even the rim tape (rubber band style) is disintegrated and falling out of the tires.

Has a handlebar mounted bag and some useful bar-ends, though.

DSC03020.JPG (17.82 KiB) Viewed 731 times

But it was $7.99, probably because of it's condition and the missing seat and post. That's cheaper than a lot of little kids' bikes tend to be, and since I mostly wanted it for the frame and the bar ends, the rest of it is a bonus.

Now I have to decide...which frame (if any) do I cut the rear triangle off of: This one or the Trek? I need a 26" with studs on it to modify for a shock triangle for the above bike, unless I go for disc brakes by welding together those two hubs.... I just hate cutting up frames that I can actually *ride*.

Oh, also, the friend that sent me the LED taillights on the kennel trailer and DGA, and the turn signals on DGA, sent me this today:

DSC03024.JPG (45.58 KiB) Viewed 935 times

It's a Yamaha motorcycle tail/brake light, also LED. It'll probably go on this bike.

DSC03025.JPG (53.75 KiB) Viewed 935 times

Now I'll need front and rear turn signals for this bike; not sure what I'll make them out of yet, since I prefer to leave CB2 and DGA intact if possible.

Oh, and I'll need a headlight. Hmm....I have some white LEDs Icecube57 sent; gotta try those out and see how bright they are, and see if I can make optics for them to make a beam to see by. Then I can use the scanner-transparency-adapter thing for a light to be seen with.

[amberwolf]

Ponderings, trying to decide which of the two frames to use for this bike:

The Eclipse frame looks much larger than the Trek frame, until I put them next to each other. Then I find there is little difference. The front triangle is around an inch longer and 2 to 4 inches taller (due to slope); in the pic the BB and seattube are not quite lined up (I used the rear dropout as the lineup point).

DSC03026.JPG (74.72 KiB) Viewed 932 times

The rear triangle is nearly exactly the same size.

DSC03029.JPG (76.91 KiB) Viewed 932 times

Eclipse headtube is longer and thus would fit the longer steering tube of the shock fork better, without the stack of bearing cups I had to use to even try the fork on the Trek frame.

Slightly larger triangles means more room for batteries and stuff there, and only increases the bike length by a couple of inches overall, but most of that length is the front triangle, which means it'd be sticking out farther in front where it is less useful rather than more in the center where I'd rather have the length. Now I'm nitpicking and would really have to build a custom frame from scratch to get what I *actually* want, but that's not the idea of this bike.

My scales are not sensitive enough to trust on such small weights, as it seems to vary each time I weigh small stuff, but they seem comparable in weight for the bare frame given the extra weight the derailer/chain/cranks give the Eclipse frame. I am not sure about strength. Because of a red-with-black-splotches wallbike I once got for scrap parts, I believe I am somehow biased that similar looking frames are weaker just because of that, even though I know better, because the Trek frame "looks" stronger to me. I have no objective test though.

The Eclipse frame has no info about it's construction that I can find on it or the web (there are many mentions of Eclipse bikes but all are talking about some high-end bikes, and this is absolutely not one of those, unless someone took all the high end stuff of one of those frames and put basic stuff on it, long ago). It does say it's 4130 chromoly, but that's all. It's a obviously a welded frame, and doesn't seem like a spectacular job on some places, like the U-fork which has a few "eaten" areas where the weld puddle didn't fill after burning off. Fork could be made by a totally different company, of course.

The Trek frame also is 4130 chromoly, and also states it is "triple butted construction", and some other stuff I forgot already in the 30 seconds it took to get back to the keyboard.

The Eclipse frame is bright red, certainly more visible than the darker purple and green Trek frame, without any change to paintjob by me.

The Eclipse is fairly evidently a cheap road bike based on everything attached to the frame, while the Trek appears to have been designed as a mid-low MTB (it's hard to tell since I never saw it in it's original configuration, only in the obviously-pieced-together state I got it in). I suspect that means the Trek will have less frame flex, but have no actual evidence for this. I can't flex either frame by hand (other than being able to very slightly compress or expand the rear dropouts) but that means little.

A bit of searching finds that this color scheme was probably only used in 1994, and some people claim that frame is better than ones that came after. A few posts that describe accessories include the Shimano STX rapidfire shifter/brakelever combos this had, as well as the same derailer/cranks/chainrings.


Ahhrrrrggghhhh. The Trek frame is uglier; I'll just go with that as the deciding factor and keep it on there.

[amberwolf]

Drivetrain ponderings by my exhausted brain at lunch today. This is just the drivetrain, doesn't show any of the rest of the bike:

drivetrain1a.JPG (88.8 KiB) Viewed 712 times

Basically, like the notes say, it has two power sources feeding the rear wheel. The 9C (or whatever) feeds the left spoke flange of the freehub, while the right flange feeds the rear wheel. The pedals drive a normal bike drivetrain in that it's a Biopace triple driving the 7speed cassette on the freehub witha normal derailer/etc.

The freehub bolts into the dropouts of the front rear triangle (confused yet?), which also means that I have to fabricate a mount point for the rear suspension triangle to attach to the front rear triangle. That mount will need to not interfere with the drivetrain.

I'd rather a pivot that clamps around the freehub itself, but I do not think I can fabricate something like that. If I could, it would mean the chain runs around the pivot point and I wouldn't have any growth problems. Maybe I will think of something. (well, something I can *fabricate*, because I can think of a lot of ways to do it if I had a machine shop and unlimited materials. )

Then a 3speed hub in the rear wheel itself, so that I can still have a high-medium-low gear for the motor, and also be able to shift that much more for the regular bike drivetrain. Basically I'd have 3 speeds for the motor, and theoretically 63 speeds for the pedals (although I think a lot of those are duplicate ratios or really close).

I don't know if the rear hub will survive this, but it will be a good test of the theory before I try to do it on the trike with two wheels running like that (in front).

Because it is in theory easy to do, I'm also going to stick a hubmotor in the front wheel, probably the Fusin geared motor originally on DayGlo Avenger mkII. This gives me a fairly light optional drive motor that also lets me get home if my crazy contraption disintegrates on me, as long as the rear wheel will still roll.

In theory it can also be used to help me start from a stop, reducing some strain on the 3speed hub, if I am heavily loaded with cargo.

I don't yet know what ratio I'll use on the hub motor's leftside sprocket to the left side freehub, nor what I'll use from the freehub back to the 3speed.

There is little enough resistance with the hubmotor that I am not terribly worried about being forced to drive it with the pedals if I must pedal-only to get home sometime. It's nothing lke the resistance I get out of the powerchair motor/gearbox on the CrazyBIke2 drivetrain, which is nearly impossible to overcome from a stop (for me).


Unfortnately I'm left with no disc brake option if I do things this way, unless I leave the Fusin off. Or figure out an easy way to make the disc adapter to the 3speed hub; theoretically it could be CNCd but I'd have to CAD up a file for that, and I am pretty uncertain of my measuring accuracy when it comes down to details like what I'd need on this thing, and doubt I could make something that would end up with a working adapter. I'd be better off hand-grinding/filing such a thing if I can find the right piece(s) of material to make it from.


Well, I'll burn that bridge when I get there.

[amberwolf]

Started actually making sure I have all the parts to stick on this, and began bolting on some stuff I know for sure I'll use, like the Biopace cranks onto the Trek's BB, and the 7-speed freehub into the Trek's rear dropouts. That will make the pedal section of the drivetrain, and the jackshaft for combining motor and pedal power.


Since I basically can't use the Specialized forks because the brake bosses/studs are in the wrong place to work with a 26" wheel, and I really don't want to use a larger front than that, I took a look at all the forks I have...and I have none of the 1-1/8" steerer tube style ones except the Specialized and the Manitou (which will be the rear shocks on this bike). So I'm going to have to make an adapter ring for the bearing race of a 1" tube/fork to be affixed into the larger Trek head tube. Shouldn't be that hard, but it's one more thing to do.

As for forks, I've only got a couple of shock forks besides those two (and the one in use on DGA). One of them is a 24" on CB2, and the other is the 26" cheapie in the pics on the previous page. It works, but it is definitely not the greatest. Better than not having one I suppose. At least it has steel dropouts for the hub (fusin, probably).

I am sorting thru my assortment of steel bits for the tubing and plate I will need to make various parts. I may not have enough 1/4" steel plate, or the 1" square tubing I'd like to use for the seat/cargopod rails (as I did with CB2). Have to look around for more stuff with 1/4" plate in it to collect again. Might be able to use the rack rails (see first pics in thread) to do the seat/pod rails, as long as I have sufficient cross bracing and I ensure the rear triangulation of it is sturdy.

Maybe more later but I keep dozing off typing this.

[dequinox]

You pretty much are a genius when it comes to kludging together reclaimed parts of all kinds amberwolf...I swear there's no part that won't work for you somehow when you're building a bike! Very cool, can't wait to see it "operational" since I also will note most of your bikes never are really "done" lol. Hell most of ours aren't, I know mine still isn't!

[amberwolf]

I dunno...I still think most people could do what I have done if they had the motivation for it like I do. Then again, I'm more stubborner than most, I guess.

As for being "done", you're right about that. The only projects I ever have that are "done" are things I don't use anymore.

I wish I could stay awake long enough to accomplish something for myself, when I am not busy doing something for someone else. Maybe if I had a month's paid vacation (not going to happen) I could rest up for a week and then start working on stuff.

That said, I went digging in my stuff again and discovered I have misplaced the threaded hubs that Karma sent me, that I was going to splice together to make myself a rear hub I could put a disc *and* a freewheel on. I guess it got miffed that I was thinking about the 3speed hub instead, and ran away.

I still have the front disc hub Papa sent, which is destined for CrazyBike2 if I can find a set of spokes and a rim in my wheel stuff that will actually lace it up into a 24" wheel. No threads on the other end of it to use as a rear, though, and nothing I can easily splice it with to make it into one. Still pondering that, though.

Also pondering ways to make the disc adapter for the left side of a 3speed hub. Lots of ideas, but no certainty any will work till I try them. The easiest way is probably not possible, which is to just weld the dang disc to the hub; it'd probably vaporize the grease inside, or worse turn it into gooey ick that jams up the gearing. Plus I'd probably weld it on slightly wobbly and be unable to use it as a brake.

I wish I could take the frame and parts to a fast food place and just sit there for a few hours pondering and drawing. At least there would not be any real distractions, and I could probably accomplish something. With the BOGO coupons some of them put in the local mailers, it's cheap enough to go (since I'd have at least two meals out of what I'd get there). But I'd have to settle for the laptop with lots of pics of it all at different angles, since I don't think they'd be happy with me spreading bike parts all over their table. I guess I could do this if I have enough time in one stretch....someday soon, I hope.

[beast775]

ive been watching this build to see your rear triangle bolt up.and at least ya made me laugh,i pictured a bunch of bicycle frames and parts in a fast food joint and kids goin crazy grabbin everything,haha.i can just see it.

[amberwolf]

Yeah, I can just imagine that happenig..

The rear bolt up is uncertain at the moment, since I am definitely not going to use the dropouts for it--I want to keep the whole drivetrain in-place and easy to deal with as original, for the pedal part. Partly this is simply so that if all else fails, I can take the rear wheel and stick it in place of the bare hub, and pedal home on that. Not a likely situation but stranger things have happened already.

I am probably going to add the mounting points for the rear pivot as part of the frame that will hold the seat and cargo pods. That'll be a triangle extending up and back.

structure1.PNG (11.85 KiB) Viewed 676 times

Green is the Trek frame, orange is the (modified) rear triangle. Dark gray is the stuff I need to build out of square tubing (horizontal rail) and small diameter round tubing (vertical and angled bits). Also dark gray are the plates I'll need to build up for mounting the rear pivot. I forgot to add the disc brake mount points but I might not be able to use those anyway.

Light gray is the front and rear shocks. Mounted vertically, the rear shock will work just like it did as a front shock, and will pull up on the whole rear load, instead of the rear load just cantilevering out into space and breaking off on some giant pothole.

Seat, tires, bars, tierod, chainlines, etc are all black. Motor chainline is not shown, as I am not yet sure which motor will be used.

But dang, this thing ought to have a lot of frame space for "stuff" when i'm done. I just hope it isn't as heavy as CrazyBike2. Well, it won't have to have SLA powering it, so that ought to help. Hopefully all the battery will fit in the front and/or center triangles, leaving more capability to haul cargo in whatever rear side pods I make, without having to stiffen up the rear suspension to the point of rock hardness.

[amberwolf]

The Eclipse has now gone here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=20595
as The Velcro Eclipse, a spare "normal" ebike, to be mutated later as the need arises.


Today I got ambitious enough to go out in the afternoon heat (only 105F) and start cutting metal and experimenting with various frame configurations to see how I can arrange all the pivot-point area bits to keep them from clashing, and still end up with a strong join.

As usual, just ignore all the dog-chewed fragments of debris in the pics...

A damaged BMX frame that I already used some seatstay bits from to fix my mistake on the CrazyBIke2 frame (where I crushed the seat stay near the dropout trying out one of the dumber suspension ideas) donated it's rear dropouts:

DSC03096.JPG (79.18 KiB) Viewed 864 times

Mostly because they're large and slotted, which will allow me to modify them as needed to fit the Trek frame wherever I find they must go. Left all the stay tubing on them I could and still be symmetrical based on the shortest existing length of stay. When I attach them, I'll be fishmouthing out the stay tube ends so they can be welded over the curve of the Trek stays.

First configuration, with the motor/pedal power combiner jackshaft (a rear hub) in the Trek dropouts, so that it can still be used with the pedal-side gearshifting.

DSC03097.JPG (91.26 KiB) Viewed 858 times

Doing it this way will definitely allow all the pedal-side stuff to clear the pivot and operate as it would have as just a rear wheel drivetrain.

DSC03098.JPG (90.84 KiB) Viewed 858 times

But the chain from the jackshaft to the rear wheel would probably need a guide around the shock triangle's chainstay when it's pivoted up during bump.

Next, the pivot point as the actual Trek dropouts, and the BMX dropouts used to hold the jackshaft.

DSC03100.JPG (89.2 KiB) Viewed 858 times

This would allow full clearance of the wheel chain at all droop-to-bump positions, but would require a guide around the pivot point for the chain on the pedals, which would prevent a derailer from actually working. In theory I could mount a derailer to the BMX dropouts , but not the same kind I have there--it'd have to be one of the cheap ones that bolts under the axle nut instead. I don't like them as much.

DSC03101.JPG (88 KiB) Viewed 864 times

Also, the shock triangle's seatpost would hit the jackshaft in bump if it were right there; it'd have to be moved quite a bit forward of that to work.

Now this one, or a variation that puts it under teh stays, might work better. Would still need derailer mounted to BMX droputs instead, but might avoid a guide roller/etc for either pedal or wheel chains.

DSC03102.JPG (89.15 KiB) Viewed 858 times

DSC03103.JPG (86.84 KiB) Viewed 858 times

I think keeping the pivot at the Trek dropouts is stronger; and I think the drivetrain will be complicated no matter which way I do it.

BTW, if you look closely at the first configuration pic, you'll see that the "nut" on teh pivot point visible is not a nut. it's a disc retainer from my Makita angle grinder (donated by JEB).

makita retainer.JPG (65.82 KiB) Viewed 653 times

I dropped one of the real crank nuts in the house somewhere earlier, and haven't found it yet. Needing something to secure things together while I took pics, I just used the grinder retainer as I had it to hand with the grinder, as I had thougth I was going to fishmouth the parts now. (until I realized I needed to ponder som more first).

So if you find yourself short a crank nut, you may be able to use a Makita (or other) angle-grinder disc retainer nut to get your cranks onto the crankshaft. At least the Makita one is the same thread pitch and diameter, fits very snugly but not improperly.

Interesting coincidence that I had it in my hand at that moment to try it. (I wouldnt' have thougth to, otherwise).

[amberwolf]

While I was waiting for the all-store meeting to get started, I sketched up some frame ideas.

The first is basically the same as the last idea above, to be built from existing bike parts.

cargobike frame 1.JPG (26.57 KiB) Viewed 855 times

Next is a simplification of it, lining up all the tubes, so that the frame should in theory be stronger, but would have to be completely custom built rather than using bike frames mostly as they are. It also uses a simple swingarm for the rear instead of a triangle, as that's all that's really needed, with the shock coming from the end of the swingarm up to the rear cargopod/seat supports.

cargobike frame 2.JPG (33.33 KiB) Viewed 849 times

A possible variation of it would use curved side tubes and curved top-rear tubes, to create a seat frame that would be a sling to sit in, and also to create a kind of fairing shape I could cover with cloth or bottle plastic.

cargobike frame 3.JPG (22.77 KiB) Viewed 849 times

[amberwolf]

Picked up today from Freecycle, this treadmill may contribute significant parts to this build:

DSC03144.JPG (44.41 KiB) Viewed 766 times

DSC03145.JPG (49.18 KiB) Viewed 766 times

DSC03147.JPG (46.36 KiB) Viewed 766 times

Those aluminum side rails on it might be structural enough to use as cargopod rails on a version of this bike. Same with the crossmembers underneath.

I also kinda like the look of the front of the treadmill:

DSC03155.JPG (16 KiB) Viewed 555 times

It's just asking to be either a front headlight assembly or a taillight. It's pretty wide, though (same width as the treadmill), so taillight across the back of the cargo pods is more likely. I'm thinking some red plex behind the grillework, with CFLs behind each one. Warp Five, Scotty!

Behind the grilles now is the usual control and power board, as well as the incline motor and worm gear:

DSC03150.JPG (46.91 KiB) Viewed 760 times

and behind the board is the main motor

DSC03156.JPG (62.13 KiB) Viewed 760 times

which does not look the same as any of the others I've seen so far:

DSC03165.JPG (47.89 KiB) Viewed 766 times

and for a moment I thought I was unlucky enough to have found an induction motor treadmill (which I can't use for an ebike motor).
But it is a PM DC motor:

DSC03157.JPG (39.47 KiB) Viewed 766 times

for 1.5HP continuous duty, or 2HP peak. I like that it is not "treadmill duty" but actually rated continuous. That's helpful. Being 90VDC rather than 120VDC is also helpful, as is that it is a 5000RPM motor instead of 7000 or higher; less reduction to deal with.
As you see from the wire cutters in the pic above that one, it's also a wide motor (4"+), and not as long as some of the others. Wider means more torque capability, AFAIK, compared to the narrower ones I usually see.

The pulley and flywheel are also separate, on opposite shaft ends, which is another unusual feature that makes it easier to use. This one has a real fan on it's shaft, too, rather than just bladelike fins on the back of the flywheel.

DSC03163.JPG (37.19 KiB) Viewed 760 times

The flywheel is HUGE, over 1.5" thick and what might be 7 or 8" diameter, cast iron I think. Hate to think what that weighs.

DSC03162.JPG (45.97 KiB) Viewed 760 times

Uses an optical interrupter for tachometer.

DSC03164.JPG (58.59 KiB) Viewed 766 times

Motor mount is bolted on the casing, which makes it easier to mount than others that have thin front plates not suitable for mounting from, just welded-on boxes to bolt a pivot plate to.
Appears to have nice big comm bars and windings, too.

DSC03159.JPG (24.43 KiB) Viewed 760 times

DSC03161.JPG (33.03 KiB) Viewed 760 times

FWIW, the only thing I found wrong with it was that some metal clips that probably were to help hold the front plastic grilles on were floating around inside it. Perhaps one of them was blocking something from turning, or shorting something out. Either way, they were knocked loose during transport (was pretty bumpy) and it worked when I got it home. I still haven't actually disassembled it yet, just taken the covers off to look inside, so the possibility still exists of trading the whole treadmill to someone else for something I might be able to use even more.

But I think I'd like to try that motor out, if I could get a high enough voltage pack to run it decently.

[amberwolf]

A few minutes' research shows that Pacific Scientific was bought out but still has a site about their old motors. No specific info about this one, but it was probably a custom job for treadmills specifically. However, their PMDC motors were made using some type of patented "cogging reduction" design of magnets; I'm not sure what that is specifically but it is meant to reduce the cogging at very low speeds. That might be helpful to my purposes, depending on how I end up trying to use this motor.

I've been pondering controllers for it, and right now I don't have one that will go high enough voltage, but I do have 4110 FETs that I could replace the lower-voltage ones in the Curtis controller on CrazyBike2, and be able to use it up to 100V. I'd just need to make a stepdown regulator for the control board, which only runs up to 48V--that shouldn't be too difficult. I might also have to make a gate driver for the highside to boost the gate drive from the control baord.

Even the 2QDs should be modifiable to work on 100V, if I split off it's power section from it's control section (I already started to do this on one of them so I could use physically larger FETs than I had before, also 100V types, in TO264 I think it was, but only to be run at 48V). The 2QD is physically much smaller, even in my expanded version in the Jensen inverter casing, so it's more likely to be used on this. It's also theoretically easier to modify since I can just wire it up to the FETs offboard, and then just kick up the gate drive for the highside to the higher voltage as well.

I'm still too busy with other things to work on any of this beyond writing down the ideas, but at least the ideas keep coming.

[D-Man]

Interesting build. So where do you get all you parts and stuff? You meantioned Good Will. Then you said free cycle. Where's that at? I don't see much of anything around here. Nothing on the side of the road much. All I see is cans, bottles, plastic, 2x4's, old signs, dumped TV's. Nothing good. I think the local wrecking yard might have a pile of bikes in it, but it won't be free.

[amberwolf]

Even the stuff you list can be good for things. Cans and bottles can net you a tiny bit of cash when recycled, many places. Signs, well, depending on what they're made of they can be used for a lot of things. Old TVs are a good source of electronic parts to fix or build stuff from, including wire and connectors. Even plastic parts can be reused sometimes, or at least parts of them, especially on older square-cabinet units since you can essentially cut the case sides and top off and have large flat sheets of plastic ready for conversion into panels, boxes, covers, etc.

Freecycle is http://freecycle.org where you locate your city and sign up for the email list or web list, and then you can be sent or browse Offers and Wants from those in your area. Reply to those posts you can help with (either by taking or giving), and the poster can reply back to you if they pick you to take the item offered, or can use what you are offering. It's all free, meaning no trade, barter, or sale allowed. The idea is to use Freecycle for anything you might otherwise have thrown into a landfill that could possibly be reused by someone else. Here in the Phoenix area there are several groups I'm signed up for, so when I see Offers come up I can use, I reply, and sometimes they pick me to receive it. I've also given stuff away to those posting Wants. Mostly I go for the things that are offered as broken or non-working items, since I know I can either fix them or use them for parts for projects.

There are other thrift stores I get stuff from, and yard sales, plus friends that give me old stuff they arent' going to use anymore. Got a couple old weather stations that way today from a friend that just replaced his, and might use one (if I can fix it) on a bike for various measurements.

Roadside stuff is much rarer now, since so many people are picking up salvage, but there are still some really good finds now and then. Usually small stuff, not worth the time for salvage trucks to stop for.

Ebike-specific stuff I've been getting either cheaply or as donations from my blog readers and from ES members, now and then, and that helps tremendously in being able to experiment.

[amberwolf]

Found a nice $3 set of "bleacher chairs" at the thrift store that will probably become the first generation sling seat:

DSC03225.JPG (22.95 KiB) Viewed 492 times

They fold up, and have this padded bottom piece that buckles around the bleacher bench; I don't want to use that for a seat (but it might become a headrest or something), and the thin tubes with plastic hinge points for the seat won't help me.

DSC03237.JPG (22.24 KiB) Viewed 492 times

So off come the pads, temporarily fold the thin tubes out of the way, and mock up a pic of two seat backs as one full seat:

DSC03236.JPG (25.68 KiB) Viewed 492 times

I'll probably bend the back 1/3 of the "seat" tubing upwards to whatever angle I want the seat back to be at relative to the seat, and then clamp the seat back to those with hose clamps, or slit the tubes and insert them into the seat back tubes, to make it a single unit.

Then I can bolt a wide U-shaped piece cut from the remaining seat back onto the new assembly so it can be fastened in place onto the bike and guarantee me clearance below the sling for bouncing and whatnot, so it can be my body's suspension (just like on CrazyBike2).

Making the bottom only 2/3 as "deep" front to back as it is now will leave my legs room to pedal but still support me well in the seat without sliding off. These things are narrower by a bit than CB2's seat, which is fine becuase I really had that one too wide anyway.

THis tubing is not qutie as stiff as the bedside toilet frame I made CB2's seat out of , but it should be stiff enough for this purpose, and actually the flexibility should provide greater suspension damping.

I wish they were a light color instead of dark blue, as that will get hot in the sun, but hey, for $3, it saves me a whole lot of work I thought I was going to have to do to make my seat.

[amberwolf]

A little closer to getting this thing going today. I was on my way with a friend to a sci-fi social club meeting, and by chance we passed Build-A-Bike on the way there, so we stopped to check if they had anything useful on their used-parts shelf.

I found a cheapie dual-crown steel suspension fork for 26" wheels for $15, and a couple of really cheapie rear shocks/springs for $5 each.

DSC03484.JPG (46.03 KiB) Viewed 1045 times

More than I really wanted to pay, since sometimes I can find a whole bike for those prices--but not lately. A friend with me couldn't talk them down, either, but it'd probably cost that much to ship one even if someone had one to part with for nothing but shipping. But I decided I could afford it, since Google sent me a check for Adsense earnings, which I figured I would not have earned enough to get for a few more years--I guess the Youtube videos of my old motor tests it now also includes must be more popular than the blog, because it was only after those got included that I quickly earned enough to go over the boundary to get a check.

So now I have a front suspension fork that will take a hub motor if I need to do it that way (or want a backup motor).
I could see that it was the right diameter for the Trek frame, but I wasn't totally sure it would be tall enough. Fortunately, it is:

DSC03490.JPG (39.33 KiB) Viewed 1045 times

It is just a spring/elastomer shock, like the one on CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger, but since it's for the front that should be fine for now. I've gotten by fine with just that kind with those two heavy bikes so far, in the front, so I may never need anything better than that even on this newer one (although I want better, it doesn't mean it's necessary ).

DSC03485.JPG (13.28 KiB) Viewed 1045 times

It's called a "Hill Assault", "Pacific Professional Series".

DSC03486.JPG (29.48 KiB) Viewed 1033 times

It had all the hardware with it, and has studs for the V-brake type of rim brakes. Doesnt ahve disc mounts but since it's steel I can fix that. Not lots of travel, but a bit more than DGA's, and definitely more than CB2's. Not sure if it's 60mm or 80mm, as I can't really compress it very well by hand (which is a good thing). A little heavier than the forks on DGA and CB2 but not by that much. Guess I'll find out how good it is after I build the rest of the bike.

One thought I had is that if I end up really needing a front adjustable shock *and* a powerful hubmotor, I could combine the Manitou fork and this one. Take this one's steel dropout tubes and slide them over the ends of the alloy Manitou fork (although I would have to cut off the Manitou's actual dropouts to do that, and the little disc-mount-plate stubs). I don't know for sure if they are even large enough for that, but they look like htey might be. Maybe. If not, I could slit the back or front of them, expand the diameter a bit, then slide them on and clamp them down with hose clamps, and weld a piece across the gap, then remove the clamps.

Rather not do that, but it's an option.



The rear shocks are complete as well, including the nylon bushings and bolts to mount them. One has an 850lbs/in spring,

DSC03488.JPG (19.49 KiB) Viewed 622 times

and the other a 750lbs/in spring.

DSC03487.JPG (19.14 KiB) Viewed 622 times

There was a third one there with a 550lb/in spring, but I figure if I am going to put heavy cargo in this bike, then if I use these on it (which I probably won't; I have another idea for them) then it's going to need high-rate springs.

I haven't taken the springs off to see if the dampers still work, but even if they dont' I can probably rebuild them easily enough.

They are "Lujan suspension" brand, model 400A (750lbs/in) and 400B (850lbs/in). I don't know if the A and B are for the spring rate or for something in the damper.

Anyhow, I am now a bit closer to getting this bike working, since I have a front fork with suspension that I can dedicate to it, that I dont' think will just come apart first time I hit a bump with it. And options on the rear suspension should my idea for the Manitou fail to work.

[amberwolf]

Been awhile since I had any updates for this project, as I have been trying to get the trike working (but am now stalled until I design and make a pivot for tilting), amongst other things like some fixes/updates to CB2 itself, and the Vpower pack project.

Not much to add just yet, but now I have a better seat that should take little work to implement:

DSC03889.JPG (53.23 KiB) Viewed 997 times

They're a tiny bit wider than the bleacher-back seats I picked up before (one of which is now the top of CB2's seat, and one of which you can see in the foreground right of the pic), and are complete seats rather than just backs. They are almost exactly the same size as the seat I already have on CB2, which I'm pretty comfortable with:

DSC03890.JPG (60.42 KiB) Viewed 997 times

To make them into seats for the bikes, I need to make an angled tubing piece that replaces the hinge pivots currently joining seat and back, so the seat frame becomes a solid piece and is stiffer. Then I'll need to make a T-piece that joins the seat frame to the front U bar underneath it so that it will be very stiff for a mounting point, and add a second U-bar at the rear of the seat frame.

I can't weld them on, though, because that would melt or set fire to the seat webbing itself. So I have some more pondering to do.


Also have a few other things, some of which may be useful for the middrive:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 07#p345907

DSC03891.JPG (55.06 KiB) Viewed 997 times

[amberwolf]

Another possible frame to use for the front of this bike, with the Trek as the rear; a Nishiki aluminum frame from LI-ghtcycle:

DSC03939.JPG (37.49 KiB) Viewed 547 times

Fred had to be the first to inspect it, the others hung back for some reason, and Nana was too lazy:

DSC03944.JPG (28.75 KiB) Viewed 547 times

Using my trusty super-accurate "Excelsior Improved Spring Balance scale, made by Sargent & Co. USA", I determined that the Nishiki frame only weighs a bit less than 4lbs, and that's including the axle and nuts holding the rear dropouts apart for shipping. The steel trek frame is more than 5lbs, closer to 6. I didn't weigh the fork but it feels almost as heavy as the Nishiki frame.

DSC03941.JPG (41.24 KiB) Viewed 547 times

The green trek frame is the same one I already had here in this thread before, just used for a comparison. The black forks are steel Trek forks LIghtcycle sent with the frame; they are nice and stiff and should work even with hubmotors. Using a FUsin geared motor I think I could go with no torque arms, though a 9C or similar would probably need them. Interestingly, the Nishiki frame will sit balanced as you see in the pic, but the Trek (and every other frame I have, AFAICR) will fall forward onto it's headset end if balanced like that.

There's not really a lot of size difference:

DSC03942.JPG (22.54 KiB) Viewed 547 times

The Nishiki is just tall enough that I could not use it as a replacement frame for DayGlo Avenger's aluminum frame (which I considered until I verified that); the top of the seattube would end up at the bottom of DGA's actual seat springs, so while I could use a standard seatpost on it, I couldn't use the suspension post I currently have on DGA (needed because of the hardtail).

But as long as I don't need to weld to it or cut anything on it, I can use it as the front of one of these cargo bikes similar to CrazyBike2. It's lighter than the front frame I used on CB2, even though it's larger and stiffer.

[amberwolf]

WHile waiting for my crazy sister to clear her stuff out today (multiple-months-extended-deadline in one minute and she is still not even trying), I worked out a few other possible combinations for the new bike, none of which I'm perfectly happy with, but the last of which might work.

DSC04044.JPG (58.18 KiB) Viewed 934 times

It's the Trek930 front frame, with an old BMX as the mid/rear, and the swingarm off a crappy steel FS Y-frame for rear suspension. Front suspension is the disc sus fork off a very heavy Murray crappy steel bike. Some ex-retail aisle-signholders for the cargopod top rack bar and side seat supports. "beach seat" for the new 'bent seat/chair.

Motor (Icecube57's GM/9C) goes in the Trek dropouts. Pedals on the Trek BB. Chainline not yet fully worked out, but should go from pedals to a jackshaft in the BMX, motor to same jackshaft, freewheel of jackshaft setup so motor doesn't spin pedals (ok if pedals spin motor). From jackshaft to rear hub, which is a 3-speed Sachs IGH with coaster brake. Jackshaft *might* include ability to shift gears for the motor more than just the 3 on the IGH.

Rear will be a 26" rather than 24" like it is now, probably, and if I can make it fit, 26" in front. Frame is significantly lower to the ground than CrazyBike2's, so this will put me and the bike back at about the same height off ground that CB2 is, which is about the same height as the average car driver would be at.

Since motor is at the rear of the triangle, there's still room for at least some battery in the rest of the triangle. More battery can go in the front triangle, but as much weight as possible I'd like to keep in the center and low, on the axle-line.

Everything is steel, so I can weld it all together.

Steering will still be remote, but I will likely go with a steering setup mostly copied from a trike design posted elsewhere on ES, where a headstock setup was bolted to a seatpost rather than how I welded stuff up on CB2's seatpost/headstock setup, whcih has proved problematic in a few ways since then (incluidng one complete failure earlier this year, which woudlnt' have happened if I'd had the other setup). Same handlebars as on CB2, but I'll have to build new controls as I don't have anymore scooter bar controls, and haven't run across any MC or scooter stuff in a long while.


Bike will be about 6-8" longer than CB2, almost 8' exactly from tire edge to tire edge. Positioning of things along the frrame is different, though, putting the seat a bit farther forward and the cargo pods a bit farther forward, too, so that they are as much completely forward of the rear axle as I can get them. That should let me put a rack over the rear wheel that is level with the tops of the pods, so I can use the entire top surface as an extra cargo rack for big stuff. Can't do that with CB2, as the pods are below the level of the rear tire top. I just have to figure out the swingarm clearances at full droop/bump.


Swingarm itself is held to the BMX dropouts by a scooter axle, using a long 1/2" drive socket instead of the original hollow bolt-together pins. Two more sockets on either side of it that are larger diameter than the long socket will keep the whole thing from sliding around on the axle, pinching it between the dropouts so it doesn't wiggle. Rear spring will need to be doubled-up, due to weight when laoded with cargo, and will be butted up against a bracket welded across the top of the BMX rear triange to seatpost.


Lots of things might change as I work this out. With luck, I'll have it finished and tested to bring to the DeathRace in just under a month, assuming everything works as planned.


Below are two of the other configurations I pondered. The Y-frame would be cut off at the point it overlaps the other frame, and welded to it there. That's pretty heavy, so I went with the BMX thing instead. Simpler and less frame-chopping, and weighs less. Should be as strong or stronger, too.

DSC04040.JPG (62.72 KiB) Viewed 922 times

DSC04042.JPG (62.28 KiB) Viewed 934 times

I might yet use the red Nishiki frame from Li-ghtcycle as the front of the bike, as it gives a lot mroe triangle space. But it also chagnes some geometry and prevents me from doing any welding-together of the bike halves, forcing me to come up with bolt-together stuff that wont' come loose or wiggle under the power of the chain drive.

[liveforphysics]

Have you had a pooch acting badly my friend? I see what looks like a muzzle of some sort.

[amberwolf]

Have you had a pooch acting badly my friend? I see what looks like a muzzle of some sort.

Yeah, thanks to my crazy sister stirring them up, Nana (with the muzzle in taht pic) and Bonnie, who already didn't get along with each other cuz they both want to be in charge, began fighting.

There's a few posts here and there mentioning/describing some of the problems over the last year or so, maybe more, I think. Some of them also describe the injuries I got separating them (almost always from Bonnie, as she is usually so terrified of what's going on that she lashes out at anything/anyone even those trying to help).

Fred, the littlest black one, likes to take the side of whoever's "winning", so usually she will join in any fight. At first she attacked Nana, but now it's always Bonnie. So the first thing I always have to do is yank Fred off and lock her away from the rest, then get Nana and Bonnie apart. The other two don't show any inclination to join, thankfully.

But because of it, Nana had to wear a muzzle whenever she was around Bonnie or Fred. Earlier this year or end of last (can't remember), she decided that despite the muzzle she'd try for Bonnie, and managed to get hold of her scruff a little, starting the whole usual crap again.

Because of that, I can't even trust the muzzle will help, now, so I simply always keep them separated. I tried to do it by putting Nana in the back bedroom, but she destroyed the door (there's pics of that around here somewhere, if the server didn't eat them) and got out, even after armoring it and the wall around it with 3/4" plywood and some aluminum server case lids.

So now, Bonnie stays in my bedroom, where she is fine being by herself. Fred can't stay in there cuz she'll eat things, so she stays in the Kennel Trailer. Doesn't like it but doesnt' try to get out.

Loki, Nana, and Hachi all stayed in the rest of the house, where they generally stay out of trouble, until recently, again thanks to my crazy sister. She was doing something yesterday, screaming and yelling at the air, really nastily, and Loki and Nana suddenly got into it for no particular reason, while I was working on the bike above. They were very easy to separate and no one was hurt, but Loki now growls at Nana, which is the same thing Bonnie does that sets her off, so now I have to keep *them* apart, too.

So...I have another Kennel in my bedroom that's even bigger than the one on the Kennel Trailer, and it is where Nana sleeps when all the rest of us are in the bedroom. It keeps her from being depressed from not being able to be in the same room with me at night; she seems happy enough just being able to be in there even if she can't lay on the bed with us all like she used to (which I miss, too).

Now Loki stays in that kennel when I have to go to work/etc., (since he'll also destroy things in the bedroom, but wont' dig out of the kennel), with Bonnie just in the room. Fred still in the Kennel Trailer, and Hachi and Nana loose in the house.


I'd just put Nana in the kennel when I'm gone, but A) it wouldn't be fair to her to lock her up 90% of the time that way, and B) if she did get out for some reason she'd be locked in a room with Bonnie, and that could be very bad. I can't drag the kennel in and out of the room every day, so shuffling the dogs around works out better and easier.


All this is a big reason why I can't find anyone to trust to feed the dogs and let them out for potty break when I am gone for a day, making it tough to do the race thing. (although that might be worked out if timing is right on leaving and coming back; I'd just have some messes to clean up).


And that is the state of the disunity at the moment.

[grindz145]

angle aluminum and hose clamps are how I get around welding too:) I think with just a little bit of welding you could make that super lagitt though. Should be wicked fun. Wish I could suspend my xtracycle...

[amberwolf]

You could suspend it, but it will take some modification of the Xtracycle unit and/or a further extension of it to the rear.

I pondered how to suspend a wheel within a box frame for cargo pods on the sides and rack across top of them, more than a year ago I think. One of these threads ought to have some sketches of the various ideas I had, assuming they survived the attachment failure problem recently. Either this thread, the ARTOO thread, or CrazyBIke2, most likely.

If I remember where the sketches went (they're just pencil on paper) I can rescan them in, or if I have time I can redraw them better in Paint or something, so you can more clearly see the ideas.

The best of the ideas involves 4 vertical springs on front and rear of the axle on each side of the rear wheel. Each spring would just be a MTB rear shock, so not a lot of travel, but with four springs it should respond better to the kind of weight put on a cargo bike. IF the springs aren't sufficient, there are some powerchair suspension springs that are similar diameter and length but much higher loading, that can be used to replace the coil springs on the damper shocks.

The dropouts would be removed from the Xtracycle, and reinstalled onto the bottom end of the springs via a bar, probably square tubing in my case. It may require spreading the Xtracycle frame some, depending on the width of your rear wheel. If it is narrow enough (by removing spacers, etc), then the shocks and all will still fit. To prevent lateral movement or twisting, the bar would be mounted on a vertical post that it would slide up and down on like a freely moving piston; this bar would be part of the Xtracycle frame from then on.

I haven't yet tried this suspension, but it should work in theory.

Another idea essentially installs a swingarm below the Xtracycle frame, using the dropouts themselves as the top mounts for a pair of MTB shocks, verttically mounted, with new dropouts part of the swingarm, essentially raising the entire back end of the bike by however much the travel of the shocks would be (so that it does not allow the tire to hit the bottom of teh Xtracycle rack at full bump). The pivot would be wherever it is possible or convenient to do this, and/or wherever works best for the effectiveness of the shocks.

An advantage of this method is that it requires no permanent mod to the XC, as you can probably clamp on everything needed, inclding the pivots for the swingarm.

[sami-b]

I'v alway wondered what the point is whit that type of bike? :p are they comfortable? fast?
seams strange tho have the front tyre so far away
glhf

[amberwolf]

I'v alway wondered what the point is whit that type of bike? :p are they comfortable? fast?
seams strange tho have the front tyre so far away
glhf

The tire has to be far enough forward to not have "toe strike", meaning that when pedalling the toes sticking out forward don't hit the tire as you turn.

In my case it's actually got a few inches more than it needs, but that is because this bike was not completely custom built, but rather built from existing bikes that were "close enough" to give me the fit I was after, with minimal modification.

The main reason for this type of bike, for me, is it's comfort. Instead of having a hard saddle up my butt, vibrating with every lttle bump in the road, I have a comfy lawnchair-type seat suspending me above the bike, so that not a lot of the road vibration comes thru the seat itself. No more "numb-ass" after a long ride.

The second reason is that it's easier to deal with cargo on this bike than a taller, regular one, though ideally it needs to be a bit longer in the back, with suspension. That's where this bike project:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16920&start=0
comes in, to try to work out the problems with CrazyBike2 and make a replacement for it.

It's also definitely less power usage vs air resistance than an upright bike, partly because it's lower, but more because I'm leaning back rather than completely upright. Somewhere in this thread or in DayGlo Avenger
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 70&start=0
I did a comparison; I dont' recall the exact results but CB2 takes less power at higher speed (20MPH) than DGA at the same speed. It takes more power to *get* to that speed because it's twice as heavy as DGA, but once at speed it takes less due to aero factors, as wind resistance really eats power the faster you go.


Another reason I like CB2 better is it's more fun to ride; without the cargo pods, I can lean it way farther over (significantly past 45 degrees based on pics of the Undead Race) than I could DGA or any other upright I have ridden, at much higher turn speeds, and not feel like I'm gonna skid out and crash. (or actually do so).

Plus, if I do crash or skid, I can walk away from it a lot easier than any upright bike. It's also not really possible under normal circumstances to do an endover on CB2 like you could on an upright, like say if you locked up the front wheel on an upright going fast enough, you'd go over the bars and faceplant. On CB2 it'd just skid instead, becuase it doesnt' have the leverage to flip the bike like that since it's so long and my wieght is so far back on it.