eLation V2 Pictures now on web

[lawsonuw]

Really nice looking kit! I'm planning out a bottom bracket drive for my old commuter bike. I look forward to seeing how eLation V2 compares to my cobbled together system and which parts will be most useful to me. (mine's gonna be a heavier system for shure)

How long until pictures of the new system are up?

Rather Interested,
Marty

[Mark_A_W]

I imagine Allan is protecting his intellectual property - you only have ~6 months once the cat's out of the bag

I know I would be! The more sales he gets before the pics go up, the further away a cheap copy will be!

[woody113]

Gee thanks Mark, now everyone knows my secret LOL

You are right about that. At first it was to keep the cat in thebag, but now it is just Iam waiting until final sample arrives, which is effectively the first kit off the prodcution line.

What surprised me a lot though is that nearly 60 kits sold without any pics, just the written word. It left me feeling pleased that people see us as a real player in this market now. With some new ideas still to come (not kits) I am sure we will cement eLation as a prodcut to match the 'big boys'.

Hi Fetch
Yeah the obvious to me was a Velodrome but I am not near one. But again we get a non-real drive. Oh well.

The figure I mentioned below is "top speed" reading. Top speed meaning the fastest it could go for given section of track.

Once I get back to testing I might post data from CycleAnalyst runs.

What I am looking at doing is sticking an incline meter (borrowed from 4WD) on the bike. I am then going to do a run and post it on You Tube, that may help a bit.

[solarbbq2003]

motor looks remarkably like cyclone motor and cyclone freewheel on it,
correct assumption? Cyclone motor is 'two stage' metal planetary gear drive.
cyclone freewheel has been notorius for rapid wear, surprised you would go for that one, they probably neglected to mention that. The other issue is with the internal controller, if you have a problem with the controller you cant just replace controller, and too replace internal controller is huge fiddly job. An external controller would be a better choice as the cyclone motors there is a certain percentage that will have controller failure, whole motor replacement has been the cyclone dealers only solution to this.
Internal controller is heatsunk to motor casing, but external controller in my view is the way to go.
wondering if cyclone also has a new pedal freewheel system?

[woody113]

Still on the dole I see Solar.

If you contributed to this arena instead of criticising and bludging I am sure we would all be happier.

Yes it is the same motor as cyclone. Your point is?
Failure rate is 0.5%, compared to Unite motors that I was using and you still use had much HIGHER FAILURES.
Do you mean the same bearing as you and EPAC STILL use.

Try contributing to this society instead of bludging off it.

The pedal system is from moulds I paid to have made. You see I am willing to put my money into something I want to see evolve, not like you who sits on your arse pontificating.

Have a nice day, I will knowing that I am leaving you in my dust :)

[solarbbq2003]

having had alot to do with cyclone, I can tell you its failure rate is way way higher than o.5%, ask anyone with a cyclone kit how long they last!!!!
Its actually a valuable bit of info for you as you will soon find out
thanks for the insults just showing your character publicly to your potential customers, very clever move.

[solarbbq2003]

if i'm sitting on my arse, why am I in china now looking at new products etc
your an extremly insulting person hope you treat your customers with more respect than that.
You'll find the cyclone freewheels will wear very rapidly, you'll be replacing them very soon I can guarentee that, its not trying to put your product down, its a fact they are poor quality and have a problem and should be replaced with better quality ones, its a well known fact for all those shops dealing with cyclone. Thats just something you should be aware of. Failure rate of those frewheels on the motors is extremely high and in short time frame, you'll be lucky if you get 1,000km out of them. Insult me after a few months when you have to replace them. Failure rate on internal controllers is not that high, 0.5% would be a bit low I would think depending on what time frame your looking at. But having taken them apart a few times and looking at them, you'll see that replacing the internal controllers is not an option for those that do fail.
Nice job on the freewheel for pedal crank though, if you had moulds made up thats a big effort and certainly worthwhile as the cyclone freewheel in the pedal crank is also not high quality and requires replacing quite early on, which it looks like you've already discovered. I'm surprised cyclone hasn't upgraded the freewheel bearing part on the pedals and the motor, certainly plenty of diy people have done just that, been plenty of discussion about those issues.
fire away with some more insults, its only coming from your end not from me towards you.

[woody113]

Get off high horse please.
You were clearly implying that I was "copying" from Cyclone , "...wondering if cyclone also has a new pedal freewheel system? "

You have had a bee in your bonnet (along with your mate at EPAC) since my design appeared on TV. He tried but failed to get some coverage, not my issue.

I have been using same bearings and accept that have had a FEW fail but considering cost of alternative I continue to feel they are good value until I find better. I have been happy to offer replacements at NO COST in every instance and will continue to do so.

If you knew so much about Cyclone motor you would have known they are single stage gearbox. My reference to two-stage was from a sample I had made but was not happy with so went with off the shelf item. Also board replacement is not that hard but also sonething I would not have a custoemr do; I would replace whole motor for them rather than muck around.

I have insulted you no more that you have me. Both of us offered sarcasm, get over it.

At least I do not knowingly get pictures of other peoples work and display it to their own finanical gain. Try taking a different road and commercialise some of these "brilliant" design you claim you have done over the years.

再见拷贝国王

[Jeremy Harris]

Guys,

It might be worth bearing in mind that many people in the market for an ebike or kit will surf the net to do some research. The chances are they'll find this forum, as I did, and read this stuff.

My advice (which is only worth what you paid for it) is that airing commercial grievances on a public bulletin board is plain bad for business.

In particular, the one of you that's spouting the most vitriol has probably pissed off more potential customers than you can wave a big stick at. Not a clever way to market a product, in my view.

I'm across the other side of the World from you, so am not a potential customer for either of you, BTW.

Jeremy

PS: and you guys reckon us Poms whinge.............................

[solarbbq2003]

My problem with you allen started when I contacted you about selling your kit on my website as I thought it looked like a good kit. But you were trying to tell me it was 200watt limited in accordance with the ebike law in australia, which was just blantant dishonesty on your part. I told you if I sold it I would have to be upfront about the power levels. Once again if you still dont understand it:
Power = volts * amps * efficiency
Your version 1 kit peak power is as follows:
P = 26volts * 30amps * 75%
P = 585 watts
thats a bit over the 200watt peak power limit for on road use. Not that I really care about that as the limit is inpractical anyway. But telling your customers they are buying a road legal kit is leaving yourself open to legal problems if there is a fatality or serious accident. ( which is very much on the cards).
I state clearly on my website that all motors I sell are over 200watts, and therefore technically can only be for offroad use in australia. I have no option on that if I want to be honest to customers who use the motors in australia.
So straight away when someone asks you about the peak power of your motors your being dihonest by telling them they are 200watts peak power and street legal ( as people have informed me this is what you tell them ) I realise you dont actually state anything on your website on what the peak power of the kits are, its conveniently neglects to get a mention.
We've been over the new inventors sage before, epac was shocked that you claimed to have an original design, and you even were using cyclone parts on the bike in that program. Thats great that you got publicity and getting ebikes more known about, but again something based on dishonesty in claiming an original idea ( part of the screening process to get onto the new inventors, but someone at the abc tv didn't do their research).
Its not rocket science, you've used cyclone system with epac style mounting, the system works others have contributed to your system, thats how things develop. But to claim its a unique system and get bothered about me selling the same components, whats the problem, aren't you just selling cyclone components??? Even your new version is still selling cyclone components, someone elses work.
You dont like me to publish pictures of cyclones motor? united motor? cyclone freewheels? Your trying to make a claim on something that you haven't got a claim on, your system is not unique, its not ground breaking research, its a copy using other peoples components, v2 you have your own freewheel peddle system, but you've been dishonest on other areas why to trust you on that one? If it is a system improving on cyclones then hats off to you.
The reality of being in ebike business is its not likely your going to make much money out of it, its all about puting bits and pieces together from different sources, motors/batteries/controllers and hopefully getting some good ebikes as end products or the easier alternative would be to sell already completed ebikes from the huge number of ebike manufacturers that are out there. You can make an ebike from these different bits and pieces as good or better in most cases than what you could purchase as a commercial expensive ebike. I think i've helped alot of people solve their ebike woes, I've caused a few headaches also no doubt, made plenty of mistakes and had the usual supply problems that are very hard to avoid. Most of my emails that I answer are not for people buying kits but asking how to fix this or that, I dont mind doing that, I think ebikes are extremely useful things.
One thing I have tried to do is be upfront and honest, its means I will probably never do very well financially in this business, if I can get by thats all thats required. You've got to get over your fixation that you have some new unique system that others cant copy, its the other way around you have and are copying other peoples systems and work.
You'll notice in my last email I put 'two stage' motor in parenthesis, as I wasn't sure what you were refering to, if you were calling a planetary system a two stage system, I'm very familiar with cyclone motor.
I think its very likely you've never tried to replace an internal controller in the cyclone motors, give it a go, its looks simple!

[woody113]

Whatever. You have no idea of my background or my experiences nor the documetation that flowed between myself or New Inventors of which EPAC was pointed out to them. I continue to wonder how eLation "copied" EPAC! Enough said I think. 叫醒愚笨

[OneWayTraffic]

I found this thread and thought I would raise the dead...

It's been about 8months since the V2 was launched.

What's the failure rate so far? I really want to know.

Solarbbq is right about one thing. Many or most motors on the market are certainly capable of putting out more than the 200w(Aust) or 300w(NZ) allowed, but doing so for more than a few minutes would probably damage the motor. I'd blame this on poorly formed laws myself. Most people buying a bike, however, are aware of this and would rather have plausible denialbility. Solarbbq gets it in asking people to use his motors off road (though I'm sure he's aware of just how many would drive them on the roads.) and Woody is aware that his motors can put out more than the rated power (which is common as most good electric motors are capable of more than the rating.) Whether this will be an issue would be a matter for case law to resolve. The opinions of laymen aren't worth much, until there's a legal opinion based on a court case. That will happen one day.

In the meantime I'd happily buy a kit rated at 300W continuous.

Solarbbq, I sent you an email asking about whether you were sucessful in overvolting the Avanti. Any luck in that?

[pedaller]

I found this thread and thought I would raise the dead...

It's been about 8months since the V2 was launched.

What's the failure rate so far? I really want to know.

Solarbbq is right about one thing. Many or most motors on the market are certainly capable of putting out more than the 200w(Aust) or 300w(NZ) allowed, but doing so for more than a few minutes would probably damage the motor. I'd blame this on poorly formed laws myself. Most people buying a bike, however, are aware of this and would rather have plausible denialbility. Solarbbq gets it in asking people to use his motors off road (though I'm sure he's aware of just how many would drive them on the roads.) and Woody is aware that his motors can put out more than the rated power (which is common as most good electric motors are capable of more than the rating.) Whether this will be an issue would be a matter for case law to resolve. The opinions of laymen aren't worth much, until there's a legal opinion based on a court case. That will happen one day.

In the meantime I'd happily buy a kit rated at 300W continuous.

Solarbbq, I sent you an email asking about whether you were sucessful in overvolting the Avanti. Any luck in that?

I too would like to know how elation v2 is going, seems nz agent has stopped selling them

[OneWayTraffic]

Really? On the website http://www.electricbikes.co.nz I don't see any news to that effect. Can you give a source?

*Edit* just checked it. Interesting. Either there's been a stock shortage, or a few problems with something. The kit's simply disappeared off the site.

I was leaning against going the eLation route anyway. Hub motors are more my thing unless there's a Panasonic type system involved. eLation would be good at the extreme hills, but it's not likely that I'd be dealing with those. I also don't care for going a lot faster than 30/35km per hour on a bike and that's the two key benefits of the eLation system over a hub as far as I can see. A geared/gearless hub motor can offer you a choice between hill climbing or speed.

It does look like a nicely put together system though. Maybe an eLation driving a CVT? I can dream can't I.

[zilla]

i have had an elation v2 kit on my road bike for a few weeks due to very poor weather i have only ridden it about 5 times the performance is very very good for 300w

the crank freewheel jammed without warning today and spat me off the bike at 40kph head first over the bars
i was talking to the http://www.electricbikes.co.nz guy that sold it to me ...he didnt seem at all suprised the freewheel broke and was very helpfull offering to sending a replacement bit and giving me detailed insructions on replacing it including how to make a tool he has devised to make it easier

it seems to me this must happen alot

WARNING THIS IS VERY VERY DANGEROUS

allan if you read this please comment i payed alot of $ for your kit and have a scuffed up bike and lots of gravel rash but i think i was lucky it was not a lot worse and a deep distrust of the freewheel system(will it do this every 5 rides?)


during our conversation http://www.electricbikes.co.nz said he is no longer stocking the elation kit and will not be in the future and now only sells the wisper and pedal4me bikes with some new products later this year

[OneWayTraffic]

How did that happen? Did it lock up the wheel?

I have two kids. Hub motors for me i think.

[mickk]

i have had an elation v2 kit on my road bike for a few weeks due to very poor weather i have only ridden it about 5 times the performance is very very good for 300w

the crank freewheel jammed without warning today and spat me off the bike at 40kph head first over the bars
i was talking to the http://www.electricbikes.co.nz guy that sold it to me ...he didnt seem at all suprised the freewheel broke and was very helpfull offering to sending a replacement bit and giving me detailed insructions on replacing it including how to make a tool he has devised to make it easier

it seems to me this must happen alot

WARNING THIS IS VERY VERY DANGEROUS

allan if you read this please comment i payed alot of $ for your kit and have a scuffed up bike and lots of gravel rash but i think i was lucky it was not a lot worse and a deep distrust of the freewheel system(will it do this every 5 rides?)


during our conversation http://www.electricbikes.co.nz said he is no longer stocking the elation kit and will not be in the future and now only sells the wisper and pedal4me bikes with some new products later this year

Thats something I hadnt considered being possible!

Now I realise I must go through a Bike Shop that is local to me and has a track record of selling elec bikes and can let me test ride and give me a few punters that have the product to speak to.

No Ebay or interstate sellers for me. If I get spat over the handle bars, I want to be able to throw the thing through a nice shop window, not engage in an email war!

I assume this wouldnt happen with a brushless DC hub, only planetary geared?

[docnjoj]

I've had 2 planetary geared hubs fail with no problem other than they would freewheel both ways. No problems other than no power! I believe they will always fail in "open mode" and not lock up.IMHO
otherDoc

[pedaller]

Seems you are avery lucky person, you could have been thrown in front of a car or truck or maybe into a large tree.
Did the nz agent indicate if this is an ongoing problem?
This could be very dangerous, if this is a common problem elation ebikes should advise v2 owners what precautions to take until the problem is sorted out and replacements parts are sent out.
Did the crank freewheel or motor freewheel lock up?

[OneWayTraffic]

I'm still trying to figure out how it could spit you over the bars. That seems like a double dose of bad luck. The front wheel isn't attached to the motor in any way and the back wheel should spin freely, were the chain to suddenly stop. Were you pedalling fast and the sudden stoppage caused you to go over or something else?

Mickk: I wouldn't worry too much about the safety aspects as long as you do your research. A brushless gearless hub should never jam and will probably outlast the bike. Geared hubs have the theorectical possibility of jamming, but I've never heard of it happening. Chain driven kits have more moving parts and therefore more to go wrong.

Still they shouldn't just jam, motorbikes are far more complex and work fine. I'm sure that the problem will get resolved in time, but I'd be careful riding it in the meantime.

You can email Alan at
AllanD@elationebikes.com.au

[zilla]

i was in an aero tuck on a flat road going aprox 40kph had stopped pedeling for a second still at full throttle and the crank freewheel jambed causing the peadals to turn with the motor at a very high speed there was enough power to trow me over the handel bars
the kit is fitted to a road bike and i am very happy with the performance of the kit its a hill climbing beast but it needs more thought put into the freewheel design

[OneWayTraffic]

One obvious thing you can do for safety is remove the pedals.

Sounds like you don't really need them.

Otherwise I'd have an mechanical engineer look over the design and installation closely. It could be something in the installation, or a missing washer or something.

Sometimes tiny little tweaks could make all the difference.

At least I see now what the problem was.

A third thing you could do is just always pedal.

[pedaller]

zilla.
Hope you keep us informed about your jamup,
At least you are happy with the performance, as a matter of interest ,what sort of range were you getting from batt?

[zilla]

its good for about 12km at full throttle including a short 500m but very very steep hill with hard peadeling

[woody113]

Hi All,

Been a bit busy lately and so not had time to jump on. Had this posted to me for comment.

First Zilla, sorry about your attempt to launch into space. Although I am confused how you would shoot foward when rear wheel locked up

The problem I will discuss below was only on about 20-30 kits as once it was idenitfied it was rectified very qucikly.

The problem is that a spacer was used (to accomodate different BB). This spacer was aluminimum. I am only 173, 52 year old guy, so forces I apply did not show that over time with more force the ring could actually compress and bite into the face of the freewheel. The result of this was that when the motor was used, without pedalling the potential existed for the ring to open the bearing ring; WHOOPS.

This resulted in bearings dropping into freewheel ratches and locking bearing. This was rectified very quickly by replacing ring with stainless steel version. Since then the problem has not occurred.

As a result of this I also set up some extreme test rigs. One consists of 500W motor with a spooled length of heavy duty chain. The motor is operated at full throttle and has about 1m of chain to take up slack before being slammed to a stop when chain slack is gone.

Also using hydraulic ram on pedals now.

All I can say, with shame, was that it was a design error that slipped through. It highlights the potential of what can happen with ANY system. I would like to highlight though that it was rectified immediately and we continue to review our prodcust for areas of improvement.

With regard to Anthony dropping NZ distribution; Anthony was finding it 'easier' to sell hub systems as they are still more ell known to public and the eLation needed education to go with it, an overhead. Quoting Andrew when we discussed this matter "I only want to sell electric bikes". Anthony has sent emails to his clients explaining the move and signed off by stating that the eLation was still the best system on the market!!!!!

I agreed to cancel our agreement in light of this and was also slightly relieved. Anthony was doing a great job, but I have been having trouble getting enough stock to satisfy my direct market.

Those not in Australia who have contacted me for purchases will be aware I have stated I am not selling outside of Australasia at present, so 'dropping' NZ actually helps me a bit.

Hope that helps squash rumors.

With regard to stock numbers; I have been growing the business using only my funds to date. I did this to be sure the product was right and to be sure it was viable. I have been approached by a number of investors (including an offer to be brought out by competition). To date I have not accepted this help as I was not sure still about market.

I am now convinced the product is here to stay and along with some further advancements planned, new products and ideas, I feel eLation will grow rapidly next year. To this end I have now been searching for funding to allow the expansion.

So stay tuned. Finally, anyone that has questions that arise on here if you could email to me also I will be able to assist publcily as I am not lurking on here as much as I used to

Cheers
Allan
http://www.elationebikes.com.au