Looking for help choosing (building?) an electric bike

Hi,

I'm looking for help in choosing an electric bike. I work very close to where I live (roughly 2 miles), but its on top of a pretty significant hill. I'd really love to figure out how to go to and from work without burning gasoline. The hill is too steep for me to handle pedaling, so I've been looking for an electric bike or scooter that can help me do the job.

First, the task:
The horizontal distance is about 2.5 miles
The vertical distance is about 190 meters (most of the hill takes place in the final 0.7-1.0 miles; that makes for a pretty steep grade)
I weigh rougly 180 pounds with all of my stuff
I have good weather all year round

Needs:
An electric bike or scooter than can reliably handle the hill with minimal pedaling
A good braking system (I have to come down too)
10 mile range
15 mph uphill (so that I dont get run over by the car drivers)
Good construction

Wants:
15-20 mile range so that I can take it other places
25 mph on flat areas
Ability to extend range by pedaling
Not ugly
Ability to take "the expensive part" inside when I lock it up (if it folds, I might take the entire thing inside)
Lights and mirrors (or I have to add them myself)
Good, no-nonsense warranty
Purchase in northern california


My absolute max is $2500, but for that I would expect something that goes 35 uphill, has a range of 30 miles and offers a 5 year warranty. My "real budget" is $1500 and I'd like to stay under $1000-1200, but how much I put out really depends on what I'm getting. I'd really like to get something very well built that I can use for the next 10 years, changing the batteries every 2 years or so. I hate to say it, but I've seen so much low-quality, disposable crap with "made in china" stamped on it in other areas that I'd have a hard time spending a lot of money on an electric bike that was made in china.

From what I've seen so far, the more powerful vehicles blur the line with (or simply are) scooters/mopeds, so I'm willing to give up pedals and removability/make it a scooter or moped if I have to.

The eGO looks nice, but a bit expensive at $1400, and I've heard that it can burn out on steep hills. There are lots of $300-$500 motorized bikes, but I tend to wonder how they do on hill climbing.

----------------

Since looking around the forums, I've also started to consider building a bike. The main problem is that I dont know what sort of design strategy I need for hill climbing. There are 750W scooters that climb better than 1500W scooters, so I know that it cant be just power.

I've thought about buying a big box $300/450W bike and upgrading it, but I need to know something about hill climbing design strategy first.

Any suggestions?

Welcome to the site!

You're going to get as many diffrent oppinions here as there are people, So this is just mine.

There are basicly 3 kinds of motors configurations to consider. Chain driven, Geared Hub motors, and direct drive hub motors. Sure there's other styles, friction drives, belt drives, and so forth, but I think most people here will agree that the three styles I listed have been proven the best.

Any of those 3 could meet your needs, as they each do something well, so you'll have to decide which is best.

Chain drive motors can be the most powerfull when it comes to hills, because you can build the gearing to give you more climbing torque, and the gearing can be changed if needed. But, they're complex, somewhat less efficent, noisy, and generaly Ugly. In most cases, it looks like a kid's science project when you're done. Examples would be the Currie.


Geard hub drives put the motor and gearing inside the wheel hub. it can be either the front hub or the rear, though on the rear its generaly hidden from view. gear hub motors make a fair amount of torque and can be used to climb some good sized hills, but they're noisy, and not the best when it comes to speed. With a geard hub motor, you're locked into the gear ratio and can't make an adjust ment. An example being the Puma.

Direct drive hub motors are near to totaly silent. like the geard hub motors, the can be fitted to the front or rear wheel, but on the rear they tend to be hidden in plain sight. They don't make as much hill climbing torque as the other motors, but most of the 400Watt+ sized ones can climb most roads build to drive up. Ditect dive motors come in several sizes, and some of the bigger ones do pump out 1500 watts, which would pull you up a hill without a problem. Examples being the Crystalyte 40X, 50X and 530X series.


Range is a factor of your batteries. the better the battery, the better your range. The same for top speed. the higher the voltage, the better your top speed will be. But be prepared, the cost of the batteries for what you want it to do will be equil to the cost of the bike and motor, if not more.



As for the bike its self, a nice cheap Department store bike with a steel frame is much better than an aluminum bike for these projects. Steel is Much stronger and more forgiving, and the extra 10 pounds in weight will be insignificant once you bolt on 60-80 pounds of motor, mounts, controls, and batteries.

A mountian bike design will give you a rugad frame, and give you plenty of room to work with. IMHO, 26 inch wheels are the way to go, as there are more choices in motors and tires for this size.


This is what I ride. Its a direct drive hub motor. I have the worst batteries imaginable, but it's still a decent preformer, and it doesn't look like an electric unless you know what you're looking for.
25 mile range at 10mph, 25mph top speed with a range of 10 miles at top speed, will climb ramps as steep as stairs, but very slowly.

As you have observed, the state of the field is fluid... lots of new stuff, old stuff, cheap stuff, good stuff, etc. We are all learning here.

I don't think you will find what you want "off the rack".

I suggest looking at bikes by members here to see what might fill your interests.

Bottom bracket drives:
Jondoh
Swordman
Sean

Hub motors:
Ypedal
xyster
knightmb
maytag

safe said:

There are two camps:

1. The Hub Motor camp.

2. The Geared Bike camp.

Commit to one and then stay faithful or you will become an apostate and we will have to kill you for switching religions!!! :lol:

Click to expand...

LOL

Gears serve to allow motors to run in their sweet spot, ie at a higher RPM than the current vehicle speed allows otherwise. If not actually in the sweet spot, at least out of the low RPM, 40% efficiency zone of battery death

The ideal solution is a 3 phase controller/motor combination with a large number of poles for low speed torque and efficiency that overvolts, to use your terminology, to get up to max speed at rated torque, street legal or otherwise. The biggest problem with this is the annoying power limits that would have to be adhered to.

Dan

As someone who is new to this, I think that I'm about to select the hub motor camp.

Its obvous that hub motors are easier to install. My ideal would be a Heinzmann-type hub motor with internal gearing (is that correct?), but those appear to be expensive.

Looking at this page

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1177&start=0

it seems like I will need 1100-1300W of power to climb hills at 15 mph with an "ordinary" hub motor. Going down to 10 mph requires 900W. The only motors that I've seen so far that are suggested as able to handle this are those from ebikes.ca. Is this correct? Are there any others?


Heres my "pretend" setup:

Big-box mountain bike with front disc brakes: $170
48V, 10AH LiFePO4 batteries: $560 (anybody ever used http://www.iloveebikes.com batts?)
5304 Hub Motor: $470
36V controller: $180
Misc electronics: $100

Thats $1480 without the battery charging controller. Thats a lot of money. A lot of money.

10 AH @ 48V should give me 24 minutes of continuous hill climbing power, which is more than I need.

It would be less if ebikes.ca had the majority of their stuff in stock, but they dont. I'd like to find an alternative supplier who has serious quality components in stock for less.

SURELY someone can help me improve this setup. The power is good, but it costs way too much.

There are "600W" kits on sale all over the place for $250-400. Can these be taken higher without spending much more by adding more powerful batteries?

big box bike with disc brakes $170
600W kit $270
Add-on battery $300???

$740 sounds a lot better than $1480, but I dont want something that will burn out with more power.



I have one more question:

I have found 2 choices for cheap mountain bikes. A cheap steel bike (dual shock) with caliper brakes for $70 and a cheap-ish aluminum bike (dual shock) with front disc. Which is better to get?

Couple quick things...
-Check out the selection at the poweridestore too:
http://www.poweridestore.com/
They've been a good vendor. I got my controller and throttle there and my 5304 from ebikes.ca.
http://electricrider.com/
is another popular vendor with a wide selection of cheap SLA batteries

-Consider a 72v controller even if you only want to run 36 or 48 volts. That way, you can add voltage later if you want to (and if you're anything like most of us, you'll want to )

-Can you recharge at work or wherever you are going? If yes, then your 2.5 mile uphill ride can be easily completed with cheap but heavy SLA (lead acid) batteries. Another downside of SLA is that they must be recharged right away -- SLA hates sitting around partially charged, even for a few hours.

(4) 10ah SLAs for about $80 with a 72v40a controller and a 5304 hubmotor is my suggestion as far the electrical if you can recharge at your destination, else a NiMH pack if your budget is tight, else a LiFePO4 pack if you can afford it. You can always upgrade the batteries later.

to add to xy's comments:

LiFe/LiMn are good battery value if you consider 3 to 4 yr investment. Cheaper chemistries don't last as long and are heavier, costing more over the long-haul.

Why not check out the site in my sig.... You'll get good looks, and the power you need. It routinely travels at around 23MPH on the flats (with 195lb rider) and up to 28mph on a downslope, no pedalling. With some low effort pedalling, you are looking at about 24-25mph on flats, and downhill....I don't pedal down hills, so I'm not sure. Of course...there is an optional power upgrade....how fast do YOU want to go? :wink:

From the description of what you are looking for, this might be it.

echoppershop said:

Why not check out the site in my sig.... You'll get good looks, and the power you need. It routinely travels at around 23MPH on the flats (with 195lb rider) and up to 28mph on a downslope, no pedalling. With some low effort pedalling, you are looking at about 24-25mph on flats, and downhill....I don't pedal down hills, so I'm not sure. Of course...there is an optional power upgrade....how fast do YOU want to go? :wink:

From the description of what you are looking for, this might be it.

Click to expand...

Hope your new design is a bit more integrated.......

lookingelectric said:

My ideal would be a Heinzmann-type hub motor with internal gearing (is that correct?)

Click to expand...

Seems it is an brushed motor!?
Better to avoid the use of brushed motor.

The only person who needed to see my post saw it... The rant didn't need to stay there....

echoppershop said:

Hey Miles.....

Click to expand...

Sorry to waste your valuable time

Miles said:

Sorry to waste your valuable time

Click to expand...

Shame on you Miles. The man is busy making phugly bikes for philistines.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

TylerDurden said:

Miles said:

Sorry to waste your valuable time

Click to expand...

Shame on you Miles. The man is busy making phugly bikes for philistines.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Click to expand...

:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

More little girls

I was answering seriously to a post...but since I can see my first day on the forum that by tomorrow I'll be heading down to the states to start slapping out little internet geeks...I'm through sifting through posts written by little girls that belong on moviepoopchute.com just to get to anything of substance...

so have a good time spending the next 10 replies to this post making jokes about how ugly my bikes are... I know you will...it's what little penis, no-girlfriend, internet losers do all day..... Have fun... and then again on Saturday night when you are still on your computers...... By the Way...giving your credit card number to a website and then chatting with webgirls that take their tops off every time you press your credit card button DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A DATE!

Or, you can email me your address and I'll come see you for a more indepth discussion on the subject.

The intersubjective chasm is too great....

echoppershop said:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

More little girls

I was answering seriously to a post...but since I can see my first day on the forum that by tomorrow I'll be heading down to the states to start slapping out little internet geeks...I'm through sifting through posts written by little girls that belong on moviepoopchute.com just to get to anything of substance...

so have a good time spending the next 10 replies to this post making jokes about how ugly my bikes are... I know you will...it's what little penis, no-girlfriend, internet losers do all day..... Have fun... and then again on Saturday night when you are still on your computers...... By the Way...giving your credit card number to a website and then chatting with webgirls that take their tops off every time you press your credit card button DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A DATE!

Or, you can email me your address and I'll come see you for a more indepth discussion on the subject.

Click to expand...

:?

echoppershop said:

More little girls....

Click to expand...

Stilletto... is that your brand or the heels you wear when you ride one??

We won't denigrate your fine FUGLY white-trash steed... it is an insult to two-wheeled transport all by itself.

We MIGHT trash yer sad little freebie website with ZERO testimonials of happy customers. Oh, yeah there are none. Just 145 hits on a site that reeks of loserville.

lookingelectric said:

Heres my "pretend" setup:

Big-box mountain bike with front disc brakes: $170
48V, 10AH LiFePO4 batteries: $560 (anybody ever used http://www.iloveebikes.com batts?)
5304 Hub Motor: $470
36V controller: $180
Misc electronics: $100

Thats $1480 without the battery charging controller. Thats a lot of money. A lot of money.

There are "600W" kits on sale all over the place for $250-400. Can these be taken higher without spending much more by adding more powerful batteries?

big box bike with disc brakes $170
600W kit $270
Add-on battery $300???

$740 sounds a lot better than $1480, but I dont want something that will burn out with more power.



I have one more question:

I have found 2 choices for cheap mountain bikes. A cheap steel bike (dual shock) with caliper brakes for $70 and a cheap-ish aluminum bike (dual shock) with front disc. Which is better to get?

Click to expand...

First off, the bikes. Go steel. 1500 watts is 2 horse power. normaly a person puts out around 200 watts peddling. Aluminum won't stand up to being that over powered for very long. Think of this like dropping a Cummin's turbo diesel into a VW bug. You want as strong a frame as posable.

Your first build list looks good except the controller. Get the 72v. Its the heart of the system. Not only does it give you room to grow the system later, its also a safty measure.

Your second build could work as well, but be carefull were you get the kit from. There are more junk kits out there than good ones. Make sure it's Brushless!

Ebikes.ca is a great place with a good reputation. Poweridestore.com is another good sorce.

As for echoppershop, anything he says can be dismissed as unimportant trolling.

Drunkskunk said:

First off, the bikes. Go steel. 1500 watts is 2 horse power. normaly a person puts out around 200 watts peddling. Aluminum won't stand up to being that over powered for very long. Think of this like dropping a Cummin's turbo diesel into a VW bug. You want as strong a frame as posable.

Click to expand...

Aluminum frames are fine, particularly for rear motor systems. I use a 7005-series aluminum frame with 2800 watts. Ypedal and many other experienced ebikers here use aluminum frames too. I've yet to see a frame failure. There are reports on this forum and other forums of both steel and aluminum front fork failures when used with a high-powered front hubmotor. The quality of the frame (welds, tube thickness, etc) matters more than whether it's steel or aluminum.