Commuter E-Bike from Novara Hardtail MTB

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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Fri May 13, 2011 12:38 am

Keyswitch Current Surges

Today I fired up LTSpice, a free electronics modelling program. With some typical values I observed 1200 amp surges when the controller was connected to the battery. :shock: Clearly this is hard on the connector or switch, or the FET in this design. By making adjustments to the network feeding the FET gate I was able to drop this to 18 amps peak. Even in this slow turn-on configuration the FET was fully turned on in well under 100 milliseconds. :idea: Under these conditions the resistive precharge is not required. I modified the PC board design to reflect this. During the precharge (switch position two) the FETs are turned on, but the controller and secondary loads are not; in the operate position both the FETs and the controller as well as the secondary loads are energized.

The remaining question is how much heat is deposited into the FETs during this linear turn-on period. The duration of the current spike is about 0.01 seconds, and at 18 amps the worst case power dissipation would be half the voltage in the FETs, or 18 * 75 / 2 which is about 700 watts. :shock: However the duration of this current is less than 0.01 seconds so the total energy is about 7 watt seconds. In fact due to the shape of this pulse the actual dissipation is closer to half of that value. :)
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Fri May 13, 2011 10:29 am

Keyswitch Positions

There are three positions on my keyswitch. Position one is off/key removal. The question is how to best use the other two:

Set 1:
2) precharge
3) operate (precharge is automatic)

OR

Set 2:
2) accessory only (motor not powered)
3) operate (precharge is automatic)

I wonder if the second set is more useful. This would send power to the accessory output, and the controller logic (since this powers the Cycle Analyst), but not the main power to the controller, so the motor could not run. This way you could pedal the bike and see speed, etc, but the throttle would be inactive.

This would be analagous to the keyswitch in most vehicles, less the "start" momentary position.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Fri May 13, 2011 1:47 pm

It might also make sense to bring the kill switch into this board and turn off power to the motor while leaving power on to the controller and Cycle Analyst.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby johnrobholmes » Fri May 13, 2011 2:01 pm

I really like the keyswitch module idea. I too hate unplugging things over and over, but I know better than to leave things plugged in for a period of time :lol:

I like option two since the precharge is automatic for running anyway. Maybe have headlights and the CA turn on with it.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Fri May 13, 2011 9:10 pm

Well, I was making changes to the design to make it have position #2 Accessory power when I remembered why this won't work. The power FETs are in the negative lead, so connecting the positive to the accessories won't help. I think trying to switch the accessories negative leads is likely to lead to other problems. Most things don't expect switching in the negative lead.

So perhaps the best way to do this is to power the controller main and the accessories from position #2 and the controller logic from position #3. The problem with this is the Cycle Analyst DP is usually powered by the controller logic. So it won't come on in position #2 unless rewired.

In other news the Cycle Analysts are still on delay but may ship in another week or two.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Fri May 13, 2011 9:26 pm

Keyswitch FET Heat

did some calcs for IRFB4110's at 50 amps DC (assuming equal current division, P = (I/N)^2*R):

1 FET 11.25 watts
2 FETs in parallel 2.8 watts each
3 FETs in parallel 1.25 watts each
4 FETs in parallel 0.70 watts each

So at the 50 amp level 3 FETs with very minimal heatsink would do, four is excellent! (my board layout has four) :D
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun May 15, 2011 12:31 am

Marin Headlands ES Ride

Survived the ES ride today. Made it up the "steep hill" to the peak. Motor got fairly hot due to the rough deeply rutted gravel and dirt road and grade. Need to have a motor temperature sensor!

Met lots of fun ES folks, some of whom have seen this thread. Thanks!

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread, both by making suggestions and asking questions!

This morning I mounted a CellLog onto one of my DB9 charging boards. So it just plugs into a battery bank and reads out the cell voltages. Really handy for reading cells in the field!

One Plug Charging Solution

I also received some of Geoff57's SMD LVC boards on friday. They are small! I think the bike should have LVC onboard. Balancing and full BMS is a bit much for an ebike with so little space. One way to go is to use the SMD LVC onboard, and then use the TPPacks BMS with a bulk charger (or power supplies) to make a single plug (or 2 plug) charging solution. The (somewhat large) TPPacks boards can stay with the charger and not be on the bike!

Typical "ES eBike Look"

Extremegreenmachine told me that my build looks too "ES" like. Instead I should empty the triangle and put the batteries and controller in the trunk pack and hide the wiring so it didn't look like an "ES Bike". I'm trying to keep the trunk free for gear, and keep the "stuffings" near the CG. Hopefully when I cover the triangle it won't attract as much attention as the waterfall of wiring in the triangle does now. :D

I did get a lot of complements on the build and we discussed various ways of handling the wiring and connectors. Some folks had problems with connectors and BMS's. One suggestion I have is to make sure you can bypass your BMS easily if necessary. Today it was necessary and it was not easy so it took time and made it difficult for one rider to get his ebike up the steep hill.

A couple of other comments on connectors. Make sure that your connectors have a good solid physical connection as well as a good solid electrical connection. (Note that Solder is a poor conductor and a marginal physical connection). Make sure connectors are being used well within their ratings. Make sure the plugs cannot easily be plugged together wrong (proper polarization). Make sure they have covers that prevent accidental shorts. That's my advice. Deviate at your own risk. :shock:

The other day a tree fell and took out our power drop. PG&E came out and re-connected it. They did not solder the wires. At work we have hundreds of high powered magnets to control the electron beam we use to make intense light for science experiments. These power supplies and magnets have hundreds of amps flowing continuously, in some cases nearly a thousand amps. They do not use soldered connections. Some of the cables and many of the magnets have hollow conductors with cooling water flowing inside them. They do not use soldered connections. Just a thought.

I used about 5.5 amp hours (of 10) on this ride. Most on the way up. We climbed over 1,000 feet as I recall in about 5 miles. Total trip was about 10 miles for me. At one point I looked and it was running 44 watt hours per mile. That was on pavement. It was worse on the dirt.

The rain held off nicely for today's outing. But it is making up for it now.
-- Alan W6AKB Cromotored FS GreyBorg, Novara MTB 9C, eBikeE Bent BMC, myEbikeWeb and Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby mr.electric » Sun May 15, 2011 6:03 pm

I Like the key switch board idea very much. It reminds me of the component on a modern car called the gateway ecu. On an ebike the controller is more similar to the engine ecu. A gateway ecu controlls all the communication between the bigger ecus that are dedicated to controlling a large complex system like transmission ,engine or hybrid system. The gateway ecu brings everything together and reads the smart key to authorize the driver to start the car.
I made a nice on/off precharge circuit with Fechter's help. One cool feature was the on/ off sequence. Flip a switch to "on " then press and hold a button to enable now the ready light comes on and you can drive. Precharge starts when you flip the switch to on. The contactor/ relay closes when you press the momentary button. Once you flip it to off it will not accidentally turn on by flipping a little handlebar mounted switch since you still need to press the button to enable. The light reminds you that it is on.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun May 15, 2011 7:03 pm

mr.electric wrote:I Like the key switch board idea very much. It reminds me of the component on a modern car called the gateway ecu. On an ebike the controller is more similar to the engine ecu. A gateway ecu controlls all the communication between the bigger ecus that are dedicated to controlling a large complex system like transmission ,engine or hybrid system. The gateway ecu brings everything together and reads the smart key to authorize the driver to start the car.
I made a nice on/off precharge circuit with Fechter's help. One cool feature was the on/ off sequence. Flip a switch to "on " then press and hold a button to enable now the ready light comes on and you can drive. Precharge starts when you flip the switch to on. The contactor/ relay closes when you press the momentary button. Once you flip it to off it will not accidentally turn on by flipping a little handlebar mounted switch since you still need to press the button to enable. The light reminds you that it is on.


Great analogy. Sort of like a pushbutton starter, like the new cars where the proximity is the "enabler" and the pushbutton is the starter.

I thought about the proximity approach as well but it is a bit expensive and complicated. Maybe get to that later!
-- Alan W6AKB Cromotored FS GreyBorg, Novara MTB 9C, eBikeE Bent BMC, myEbikeWeb and Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby mr.electric » Sun May 15, 2011 7:55 pm

As long as the battery in and out and throttle in and out plugs are matched with the stock plugs you could easily bypass the circuit if anything went wrong. The hill climb race provided a telling lesson when Ryan had a BMS failure and spent significant time bypassing the permanently installed BMS circuit. I think the key switch circuit could add safetey and reliability by providing things like temp sensor throttle cut back, precharge circuit , current limiting ,dc-dc for lights and other features and if all else fails an easy way to bypass everything and plug the throttle and battery directly into the controller would be good.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun May 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Exactly right. Compatible in/out plugs, and maybe a precharge resistor plug (or maybe don't bother with that) for the case where things go wrong.

I have adjusted the PCB so position two is accessory and controller motor power, but not controller logic power; and position three enables power to the controller logic.

It is not perfect. To do the more desirable position two accessory and controller logic, and position three motor power would require a DC-DC converter to drive the FET gates. That is do-able but raises cost and complexity and may push the board space. Maybe I should look around for a DC converter to drive the gates just to see how small they get.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby mr.electric » Sun May 15, 2011 8:36 pm

I have a pile of three pin throttle male and female plugs with about two inches of wire connected to each pin.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun May 15, 2011 9:51 pm

mr.electric wrote:I have a pile of three pin throttle male and female plugs with about two inches of wire connected to each pin.


Could come in handy for these boards. :D

I added a photo of my new gloves to the last posting on page 28. They seem to be working out well, though only one ride on them so far.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby chroot » Tue May 17, 2011 11:50 am

Hi AlanB,

Remember, I told you at the SF slacker peak as I recommend you make a mold case for inside the bike's frame, put your LiPo battery inside the case, better protection, It will make look awesome and Please take it look the link below to give you a idea.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25407&start=30
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Tue May 17, 2011 5:45 pm

chroot wrote:Hi AlanB,

Remember, I told you at the SF slacker peak as I recommend you make a mold case for inside the bike's frame, put your LiPo battery inside the case, better protection, It will make look awesome and Please take it look the link below to give you a idea.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25407&start=30


Yes, I do remember. Thanks for the link! I need to do something for protecting my batteries! First I need to see if I'm going to put a few more into the pack, then time to add protection!!

The linke above points to page 3 of a thread where he makes flat sheets of epoxy/carbon fiber/glass fiber. Very nicely done! Two tips are to make the flat sheets between two sheets of heavy glass with weights, and use electric blankets to cook it for 12 hours. The other useful tip is to cut it use an angle grinder and thin cutting disc.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby chroot » Tue May 17, 2011 6:20 pm

Actually, I used the plastic bag with the vacuum with the molded with the fiberglass cover over the molded for few hours. It takes about 8 hours to be completely hardened epoxy then I remove the molded fiberglass case.

Let me find a thread that showing the molded fiberglass case. Give me time search it for you.

I saw different technique using heat cover. I never tried that one.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby chroot » Tue May 17, 2011 6:43 pm

Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Tue May 17, 2011 8:40 pm

Another great case link. Thanks!

Just got email that the large screen cycle analyst is shipping. That will be nice!

CA arrived!

Off on a trip for a few days, no time to play with it now!!

Need to fix the front grip shifter. It broke on the mountain climb, either when I fell or when I was pushing the front derailleur back into position. It moved a bit somehow.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:26 pm

Time to get back to this project!

Had some nice weather today, and fixed the broken grip shifter, finally. So now I can get out of low range and pedal at reasonable speed when I need to. The old shifter broke on the group ride to slacker's hill a few months back when I took a minor spill in the loose gravel on the steep part of the climb.

Today I also strapped a couple batteries for 10S1P (42V 5AH) and controller to the Son's bike and we went for a ride to the neighborhood "stroll".

Both bikes worked well.

Ordered a couple of the King chargers a few days ago. 75V 2 and 4 amp versions. Plan to alternate bulk and balance charging on my 18S2P (75V 10AH) setup.
Last edited by Alan B on Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:50 am

First Commute Run Today!

Finally got everything together for the "first" commute run to work.

Weather warm, going to be hot going home. Took it fairly easy, trying to avoid running out of juice or getting sweaty on the way to work.

14.02 miles
47 min
6.4 amp hours (of 10) (18S2P 5AH, so 75V 10AH)
75.0V to start
68.3V at work
452 watt hours
32.4 watt hours per mile (lots of vertical on this inbound work trip through Tilden park on Wildcat)
60 amps max current
66.4 V min (flogged it hard up one hill)
17.8 average mph
34.5 max mph (flew down one hill)

Took it easy overall, pedalled a little but not very much or very hard, generally ran 15-20 mph. Ran hard up one hill and down another due to a vehicle that was following me at a spot that was not good for passing.

Motor fairly warm upon arrival at work. The hard uphill run was not long before the ride ended, probably heat from that percolating out.

Charging now with Turnigy 8150 at 6 amps 25.2V. Have to charge three sections this way. Bulk charger has not arrived yet, but this balancing turnigy has been doing nicely. Should take less than 1.5 hours per section to charge.

I will probably increase the battery bank to 15AH by adding 3 more 6S 5AH packs. That should give me a comfortable margin and allow more speed, and a round trip without recharging if necessary.
Last edited by Alan B on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Racer_X » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:21 pm

where did you order the chargers?
Ordered a couple of the King chargers a few days ago. 75V 2 and 4 amp versions.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:35 pm

From bmsbattery. It is my understanding they are the King chargers, but who knows. This is somewhat of an experiment.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Work to home trip. A little faster in parts, taking my time in others. Very nice evening, warm and pretty. Took a few photos along the lake to post later.

43 minutes
14.3 miles (slight detours)
24.5 watt hours per mile
4.9 amp hours (of 10)
19.9 mph average speed
442 mph maximum speed (funny, don't recall going over 35)
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:31 am

A couple of cellphone snaps, not the best camera, but what we had along.

Image

Charging at Work

Image

View of San Pablo Reservoir riding home from work

It was really a nice day to ride to work, and a spare-the-air day. I saved almost 40 pounds of CO2 today. The air temperature alternated between cool and warm this morning as I rode through cells of warm air. This afternoon the cool breeze from the bay reached through Berkeley and across the park ridges for the first part of my ride, but as I descended into the San Pablo Reservoir valley on the far side the temperature rose significantly. It was really nice to avoid working too hard in the heat and let the electric work as we rolled along the lake.

Some comments on the power supply I was using at work. I had the old Astron RS20A lying around, so I took that to work for this charging station. It is rated for 16 amps continuous, 20 amps intermittent, but at about 12 amps where the charger does the bulk charging this power supply gets very toasty. I'll put it back away and dig out another switcher. The linear supply just gets too hot.

Charging took about 1.5 hours per section times three, so about 5 hours to recharge and balance all three 25 volt sections. Using the Turnigy 8150 charger at 5 amps this time to reduce power supply heat slightly.
Last edited by Alan B on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Making a Commuter (&Fun) MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:02 pm

I've replaced the old Astron linear power supply with an Astron SS30M switcher that I have had for awhile:

Image

Astron SS30M 12V supply feeding Turnigy Accucel 8150 charger

This setup runs cool, I've been using one like it at home for some time. It will do 7 amps at 6S. Cellphone quality photo.
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