Commuter E-Bike from Novara Hardtail MTB

[GCinDC]

then you got two choices, go stealth and slow and pedal a lot and live in fear of getting busted. bike paths around here are the same, and a buddy of mine got nabbed by a cop who finally answered the calls of the pissed off (and deeply embarrassed?) cyclists.

or go high powered so you can take a lane, and not slow cars down (esp on uphill climbs). if the speed limit is 25mph posted, drivers here would go 35 regularly... do you drive the route now? but now you've got a technically illegal ebike so..

[Alan B]

Hi GCinDC. Thanks for your comments.

I've followed some of your threads in the last few days. Very exciting videos! Hope your knees are doing better! I'll actually be in DC for a meeting next week, interestingly enough. Probably no spare time though...

I drive the route now. A third is 50 mph highway with a (mostly) wide margin. The other 2/3 is mostly through a park that varies from extremely twisty and perhaps 4% grade to hilly. The part that would be cut off is about a mile of highway and all the twisty stuff. Really would be nice.

I don't know any ebike riders around here so can't say how it really works enforcement wise. I probably don't want to be constantly worried about that.

In terms of speed the park is posted 25 and folks go 35 most of the time but the twisty slows them down. The pavement is not great either and there is no shoulder on the park roads. On the downhill an ebike could stay at traffic speed. On the uphill staying at traffic speed would probably require more battery than practical for a 13 mile route. I'm planning 48V 16AH LiFePO4 at the moment. Actually 16S which is a little more than 48V.

I just spent some time with the motor simulator and bike simulator. Looks like I should go with a 40A controller rather than 25A. Lots to learn!

[Alan B]

I see my Headway cells are due in tuesday. Great. I'll be out of town.

This is just a "test" set of 4 cells. Any reason I should not use Headway 16AH cells for my build? If these check out good I may want to get the whole set soon to have them "match", more or less.

[Alan B]

I took some photos and added one to the first post of this thread, as well as a link to the picasa album of all the pictures of the bike.

I also took some measurements. The top tube is 1 1/2", the main tube is 2 1/8" the seat tube is 1 1/4" and the seat post is 27mm. Space between rear dropouts is 135mm or so, hard to measure that with wheel in.

Total weight is about 33 pounds including lock, pump, rack, seatbag, tools, and empty water bottle.

[Alan B]

some Simulator Data

270 pound rider + bike + gear
5% mechanical loss, 0.007 tire loss, air drag 0.004

20 mph level ground 225 watts
10 mph 10% grade 625 watts

NC 2807 motor
52V 16S battery
40A controller

20 mph level ground will require 65% throttle and operate at 82% efficiency producing 250 watts (consuming 310w, 50V 6.2A which the 16AH battery could do for 2.6 hours covering 50 miles)

10 mph on a 10% grade will require 65% throttle and operate at 50% efficiency producing 625 watts (consuming 1350w, 50V 27A which the 16AH battery could do for 0.6 hours covering 6 miles)

[GCinDC]

FYI

Hi GC,

The 5-speed 14-28t freewheel is 31mm in overall width/thickness, from the back of the threaded freehub to the outside of the lockring. The thickness of the cog stack only (from the back of the largest cog to the front of the smallest cog) is 26mm. The 7-speed 11-32t freewheel is 38mm in overall width, or 32mm if you're measuring just the cogs.

These measurements might be a few tenths of a millimeter off, since my calipers weren't long enough to reach over the large cog. But yes, the 7-speed freewheel is wider. Let me know if you have any other questions,

- Cycle 9

[Alan B]

Good to know.

I'm almost in DC tonite. Actually MD. Long day flying.

Anyway, I did some route work last night, my route goes from 100 to 1350 foot elevation. Most of it is a few percent, and then there's the steep part near work where it drops down over the ridge into the campus. Grade there up to about 10%.

I got some expert advice from one of the ebike places recently. Very helpful response. They didn't think the 7 speed would fit and recommended the 6 speed with the Nine Continents hub, or go to a geared hub which fits the 7 speed properly. They just don't recommend the 7 speed unless it is a steel frame that can be tweaked to make room for it.

So I spent a few hours researching the geared motors again. I like the stealth due to smaller motor size. I like the freewheeling though regen is generally lost but regen seems to be not worthwhile. But some of the geared hubs do seem to be unreliable, especially if much power is used. I would expect some maintenance is required. They are a bit short on power. They are more expensive. Most concerning for me are the failures.

After thinking about it for a couple of days I think reliability is quite important to me. If I start using this for transportation I want it to be rock reliable. Seems like a nongeared hub would be better in that department. The Nine Continents seems to hold up under pretty severe punishment.

So I think I'm still on track for a Nine Continents rear hub. Six or seven speed. I suppose I can start with the six speed and see how it fits and works. If I get 7 speed shifter and derailleurs then those will work with either, as I understand it. The only real disadvantage is the small cog not being as small as I might need. So at some speed I won't be able to pedal. That should not be a problem to start with.

The batteries should have arrived today, but I am not going to be there till thursday evening to see them. Looking forward to that.

I'm curious, what are folks using for BMS on the Headway cells? I'll do more searching but any suggestions would be appreciated.

[ronnieb52]

I have a rear geared from Ampedbikes and it's doing fine. I ran 36 volt SLA's for the first 3 months and then orderd Ping's 48v/10amp battery and am loving it.

I purchased my bike in May and assembled it when I finally got the kit from Ampedbikes. Had to wait amost 3 weeks for delivery. But everything was there.

I purchased a Turnigy 130A watt meter and see that I use 13.xx amps when I am WOT and I also see that I use around 700 watts at WOT.

Have recently changed to 48 volts using Ping's 48v/10amp battery and it runs great. I got the 10amp because of the weight. I rode it one day to find out how far I could ride and it cut out right at 21 miles. I didn't baby it during the ride either. I guess I could have tried for milage, but I just wanted to enjoy my ride. haha Kind of wonder how 60 volts feels.

So far I've ridden my bike since May full time to work and back, averaging 125 miles a week. Takes about 35 minutes to get to work and it's 12.5 miles each way. I had a speedometer and it stopped working right at 2000 miles. Since then I have rode another month so I know that's another 500 miles. Runs great. When I installed everything I got a new bike and took my time running the wires and hiding the controller. Found the Topeak bag and rack combo and love it.

Personally I like the small motor as no one notices it ...

[Evoforce]

Double post

[Evoforce]

Spent some time with Google Maps and their new bicycle routing system. It found a route that I suspected but never had worked out. Shaved 3 miles off my commute! That would make it under 10 miles!!!

Then I tried to get the vertical profile. That did not work.

Then I looked up the rules for these old roads in the park. Human powered bicycles specified. Electric bikes only for the disabled. SHUCKS!.

This route is really excellent. It takes 3 miles off and a lot of that is very narrow twisty 2 lane mixed with cars and makes it a pretty gradual climb. I suspect at
commute time it is pretty empty on these trails as well. But pedalling a 60 pound bike up this in the morning commute would not be practical I suspect.

In the evening going downhill it might be okay to pedal it (mostly coasting anyhow).

Of course if they don't allow an electric bike, does it matter if it is turned off?????

Could you be considered mentally or physically disabled? After all, you are one of those wackos riding an e-bike.

[Alan B]

I have a rear geared from Ampedbikes and it's doing fine.

...

Personally I like the small motor as no one notices it ...

Thanks for the report. That is a lot of commute miles (2500). Your commute sounds a lot like mine only I have 1250 feet of vertical in 12.3 miles.

Have you had any problems with your system that caused it to quit working?

On reliability in general there are always flats (fun to fix on the road, especially in the motored wheel), electrical problems, mechanical problems, accidents. Wonder how often e-bike commuters have problems? Once per year, etc?? We have become accustomed to pretty high reliability on our vehicles.

The small size is one feature of the geared hub that is quite attractive. They pretty much hide behind the gear cluster / disc brake. Very stealth. The whine of the gears (a negative) seems pretty low by most reports.

What is the speed you get at WOT with 36V and 48V?

[Alan B]

...
Could you be considered mentally or physically disabled? After all, you are one of those wackos riding an e-bike.

That is a good question. Does building and riding an e-bike qualify one for mental?

It seems like after a few crashes the physical part might also be fulfilled. But if my history of motorcycle riding is any indication, I may avoid most problems there (knock on wood). In something like 100k of mostly commute motorcycle riding I had one very minor non-injury accident (a truck backed into my front wheel), plus a couple of times I dropped the 470 pound bike in dirt or gravel at a standstill, so the bike was not really even damaged. I tend to be pretty careful. I slipped a few times on wet pavement from oil or condensation but managed to avoid falling. I don't generally ride in the wet on purpose, but there were days where I got caught in bad weather. You just have to adjust your riding style to match the friction available...

Before that, while in college I used an old Schwinn 10 speed for my 6 mile commute. Not sure how many miles but never had an accident (that I recall). One time I pedaled through a left turn and the pedal hit pavement. I lost a foot or so sideways but managed to stay up. Very exciting moment.

I upgraded to a moped and put a few thousand miles on that. Had a couple of flats. No breakdowns and one accident, slipped on condensation early one morning and fell at about 25 mph. Helmet didn't touch the pavement but my down jacket was leaking feathers. My wrist was not broken but it hurt for a few weeks. Real happy I had gloves on. The Motobecane was pretty reliable (just had to change to a clean spark plug occasionally), but a killer to pedal the single speed 100 pound bike.

Then the motorcycles. Just about wore out a Honda 125. Great little bike but when the motor started making funny noises the shop told me how often those motors need rebuilding I didn't like that, so I bought a water cooled shaft drive Honda CX500. Not a race bike, but reliable as heck and plenty of power. Had a few flats but no breakdowns and I already mentioned the rest above.

Anyway, I don't mind spending some time building a decent e-bike, but once built I don't have time to do a lot of maintenance to keep it running and I don't have a lot of patience for breakdowns while commuting.

Thanks for the comments,

[Alan B]

Found a great webpage on gearing that addresses some of the issues discussed here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html

One interesting data point is that the narrow chains often work on the older gears. Definitely worth trying at least.

[Alan B]

Converting Front to Disc Brakes

Should I convert the front wheel to disc brakes? Existing brakes are "V" brakes. What are some good ways to do this. The forks have the mounting for it, the wheel does not.

Thanks for your comments,

[dogman]

Since stealth is an issue, go with amped or ebikekits rear gearmotor. You won't need all the gears anymore, you'll only use the smallest three. It won't have the power of the 2807, that at 48v would easily push 1200 watts with a 20 amp controller. But you'll be a lot less conspicuous, and if you aren't going quite as fast as a 9c on 48v, that's less conspicuous too. If you want quieter stealth, then a crystalyte 408 rear would do the trick.

Be a courteous rider on the trail, and you will not be so likely to have people call in complaints with your description. Slow some to pass dog walkers, and use a bell to let folks know you are coming when they are blocking the path.

Later on, if you decide you want more speed, and the bike trail looks like you won't draw heat, then you can go 9c 2087.

If you are going so fast you need disk, you just lost stealth. But they do stop better in wet.

[Alan B]

I was thinking disc more in terms of 1300 plus feet of elevation loss. According to one route analysis up to 11% in one part. Plus quite a bit of 6%. And in terms of safety in the wet. Plus the forks already have the mounting so it doesn't look like a difficult project. I don't plan to do it right away, just trying to understand what is needed.

I see there are two caliper mounting systems, but it looks like a lot of calipers come with an adapter. Presumably this will fit the mounts on the fork.

There are also more than one size of disc. So that needs to get sorted out.

Could buy a new hub and relace my wheel. Not sure that is cost effective. Wonder how much that costs. Versus buying a wheel already set up. The front wheel should be a good one. Very important wheel...

I do like stealth. Thanks for the motor suggestions. Most of those are on my list, though I have not looked at Crystalyte lately.

I'm also looking at ways to stealth the battery. Considering making a triangular pack for mid frame, and make it look like anything but a battery. Make a nylon cover for it. Mount the batteries in a pack using some aluminum flat struts and the headway plastic pieces, perhaps. Or maybe use a triangular piece of plastic, drill holes, tie wrap the batteries to that on both sides. Then cover with nylon.

Wonder if anyone makes a water bottle holder that fits on top of the top bar, like a cupholder, so the whole triangle is available (these Headways are bulky). Or I could use a hydration pack and avoid the bottles altogether. Do folks like those hydration packs??

I also wondered if the PWM or other motor noises especially annoy the dogs? Haven't heard that, but they are sensitive to higher frequencies.

[amberwolf]

My five dogs don't care about the noise; I think they just wanna chase the moving object. Even sitting in the living room fixing and testing stuff, they don't really respond to any of the noises the bike makes, unless I get squeaks from the (usually unoiled) chain if it's sat for a few days unused during damp weather.

I have a water bottle holder that fits on the handlebars, upright, and it works as a cupholder. Came off a pedal-trailer, single wheel, which should have pics in my kennel trailer thread I think.

[Alan B]

Well, the hub motor/wheel kit is ordered. 9C 26". 35A controller w CA connector. Thumb throttle. Two torque arms. I'm going to have to see how the 6 gear cluster fits and decide if there is enough space for the recommended 7 gear model.

Next is to decide on battery setups. Made a foam triangle to test fit 16AH Headways. Not an easy fit. Also looking at imported A123M1 packs. A bit more costly than the Headways but probably pack smaller, have to look at that more closely yet.

Found a circuit I like for the low voltage cutout using the standard voltage OK/reset generator chips driving an optical isolator. Very few parts, especially if the output is fed into the controller's brake input.

If a Headway cell dies do we call it a deadway?

[GCinDC]

Well, the hub motor/wheel kit is ordered. 9C 26".

9x7 (2807?) or 6x10?

EDIT: PS. YAY!!!

[Alan B]

9x7. (6x10 might have been better but no one seems to have them at this time).

Also Cycle Analyst and some led lights.

[liveforphysics]

If a Headway cell dies do we call it a deadway?

Nope, you call it a typical headway.

Just kidding, they actually make a fairly decent product for the money.



You will like the 9C, and the CA is a must have. You're starting off with good choices.

[GCinDC]

Next is to decide on battery setups. Made a foam triangle to test fit 16AH Headways. Not an easy fit.

The controller is a 36V or 48V? How many batteries did you figure you'd need?

[Dave Sloan]

The easiest way to go stealth is the back panier that you have. This is the best setup that I have found. You order a LiFePO4 battery 48v 20ah at 345 x 140 x 140 which slides in a grocery store recycle cloth bag - I got mine from Canadian Tire because they had environmentally friendly / recycle written all over it. Buy some rubber exercise mat and use two layers on that pannier you have. Also velcro a layer around the sides of the battery (helps when you BUSH it). Cut a foam jacket to go around the BMS that sits on top of the battery. Add some plexiglass or plastic that has vent holes on top of the BMS foam then mount the whole arrangement with two velcro straps. Ductape a piece of plexiglass to the front of the battery to prevent it from sliding forward. Cut the recycle bag in half - half way down and slide it over the battery/BMS. The controller can get mounted on the underside of the panier or where I prefer it with a front motor - under the handle bars - covered with a bag that says "Tool Kit". I can post some pictures if you like this arrangement.
Nice part about this is that I bungie my other junk on top (coffee Thermos and lock) and still have room on the sides for laptop etc. It is the best place to have the battery if you do dump the bike when someone cuts you off = my Thermos was not so lucky. Oh and add some epoxy or BJ Weld around the joints of the panier near the axle to re-enforce it.

[Alan B]

Controller is 36/48V 35A Infineon. Planning 12/16S. Probably in 4S (12V) blocks for utility and charging ease. So I can reconfigure for 36/48V. Planning 16AH Headways or possibly 4S8P A123M1 modules which is 18AH.

The triangle is about 15x19x24 which sounds large but when laying out the Headways it is tight. Was thinking of a Lexan triangle center plate with the cells tiewrapped to both sides and then covered with nylon, that appears too small for 16 cells but 12 looks doable. Possibly put 12 in the triangle and the remaining 4 on the rack. Turbo Boost.

I'd like to keep the rack clear for some cargo but perhaps it would be better to use panniers for my cargo space. 4 cells on the rack would not be very large.

I need to find a "high beam" handlebar switch for the Cycle Lumenator. I'm planning to use a different light for "low beam".

[Alan B]

Thanks for the suggestions, Dave S. I'm sure folks here would love to see some pictures of your setup. Sounds like you have done a number of good things.

I was thinking of batteries in the rear, and I may get back to that, or start with it due to simplicity. Since I have a rear motor I'm trying to put some weight forward and keep the rear for the occasional cargo, but the rear mounts are easy and cover up the motor adding to the stealth aspect.