All should change to faster speed for saftey - way above 20

My goal is to one day have an e-bike that is barely just over legal ( so I can still get away with riding it) I want the fastest acceleration an ebike can give (within reason) with a top speed of 30 miles an hour. 25 mph is the legal limit where I live -

But saying 20 should be the legal limit for a top speed is crazy and dangerous. This is no good as a top speed. I believe all e-bike kits are wrong for giving a top speed of 20 mph because like cars, there are times when you just cannot stop.. you must speed up to avoid danger. A top speed of 20 mph won't give you this safety margin. For cars and all other vehicles it is legal to exceed the speed limit to accelerate to avoid danger (and normal passing). It should be so for e-bikes also in my opinion. With a top speed of 20 mph you just cannot do this.

So for those who need a legal 20 mph limit for normal cruising you need top have at least a machine capable of doing 25 mph. To me this is only right and safer for everyone.

What do you guys think?

I agree that "acceleration" can, at times, be as important as braking and handling as far as avoiding trouble goes.

Also keep in that "acceleration" in and of itself can actually be used to bring an "out of control" vehicle "back" (into control).

Even 25 is probably too slow in most places. I ride my bike in town where all the speed limits are 30, so I built my bike to run at 35, and to get there fast. There's no way I'd feel safe at all on the road moving at a slower speed.

As far as legality, I've been pulled over twice. The first cop said "that's cool!" and let me go, the second cop liked it so much he asked if he could ride it!

A fast ebike = a safe ebike

cord said:

I built my bike to run at 35, and to get there fast. There's no way I'd feel safe at all on the road moving at a slower speed.
A fast ebike = a safe ebike

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Cool - What are your e-bikes specs?

Thanks,

It's a Specialized Big Hit frame, and I'm running a rear 9C (slow 10 turn version) with 24S2P Turnigy lipo. I've run several different controllers, but I'm now using a Lyen 6 FET with 4110s and it rocks! I consistently pull 2-3000+ watts and the little controller barely gets warm!

The two important things I've found for high speed is you need to have a decent suspension and you MUST have good disk brakes.

Faster is better up to a point. I would never get in the street on somthing that couldn't go faster. But at much over 20, its just another motor vehicle, like any other, and needs to be licensed, insured, registered, and paying road tax like everyone else.

An Ebike is just that. A bicycle. And your average rider isn't going to be able to do even 20 on there bicycle for very long. Compared to the average kid riding there LOLmart Huffer to school every day, 20 miles an hour is OMGWTFBBQ Fast.

A bike that does 30mph or faster is no longer a motorized bicycle, but a true motorbike. If you want it to be legal, register it.

Drunkskunk said:

But at much over 20, its just another motor vehicle, like any other, and needs to be licensed, insured, registered, and paying road tax like everyone else.

An Ebike is just that. A bicycle. And your average rider isn't going to be able to do even 20 on there bicycle for very long. Compared to the average kid riding there LOLmart Huffer to school every day, 20 miles an hour is OMGWTFBBQ Fast.

A bike that does 30mph or faster is no longer a motorized bicycle, but a true motorbike. If you want it to be legal, register it.

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Just a heads up.

Most serious bikers that propel decent road bikes typically average speeds of 30 mph - sometimes 40 mph - pedal power alone. Thus by your definition all road bikes should be "licensed, insured, registered, and paying road tax like everyone else". And should be considered human powered motorbikes by your definition.

Serious bikers buy fast bikes and train themselves to get comfortable with these speeds. I am much more afraid of getting hit by one of those guys than anyone with an e-bike that I KNOW Must have a good braking system (and motor cut off brake switch by law).

You didn't even address your feelings on the point of my post, which is we should have faster e-bikes to be able to accelerate in an emergency situation.

I agree, it's safer to be able to keep up with 35mph traffic than have cars trying to squeeze by and crowd you to the curb. But, "always expect cars to do the unexpected" - they will pull out in front of you in a heartbeat - make sure you have good lights, and be ready to take evasive action...Be careful and live longer

25Miles per hour is a reasonable speed to be limited to. I try to avoid going any faster than that on my bike.

I think you should build a high power 35-40mph bike and ride it at 25mph if that's the speed you want. My bike has a top speed of just over 60mph, but I ride at a typical cruise around 35-40mph except on the few nearby roads that high speeds are warranted and safer from my POV. Who drives their car or motorcycle at normal cruise at WOT? Any car that you could would really suck to drive. Why should ebikes be any different? Dead flat road, no wind, and hundreds of yards to get from 17mph up to 20mph is not only unacceptable, it's dangerous. Imagine a dump truck riding along at 15mph into a gusting headwind while you get sandblasted behind unable to pass, or even if there's no wind but getting around it takes 15-20 seconds. What about going up a hill on a narrow road stuck at a max speed of under 10mph, so it's a matter of what happens first, a 20mph car forces you off the road or you melt your motor...neither has much appeal.

20mph limits were jointly negotiated by pedalists and government people who ride only in cars. Rebel against these ridiculous arbitrary rules that make ebikes less safe. Just be sure to ride in a safe and courteous manner, and avoid riding fast on pathways shared with pedestrians. On the streets, if 5-10mph over the speed limit is commonly accepted for cars, why wouldn't similar leeway be afforded to ebikes?

An even better alternative is to move to a developing country without rules specific to 2 or 3 wheel EV's. Kids on electric scooters didn't spoil the fun by getting hurt and being a menace on the sidewalks and roadways, so no laws have even been proposed yet. My ebikes don't have an ICE motor with displacement greater than 49cc, so mine are legally bicycles. The exception is that I'm allowed on the highway where pedal bikes are prohibited, because I´m motorized and can maintain the 40kph minimum speed.

John

Electric Rider said:

Just a heads up.

Most serious bikers that propel decent road bikes typically average speeds of 30 mph - sometimes 40 mph - pedal power alone. Thus by your definition all road bikes should be "licensed, insured, registered, and paying road tax like everyone else". And should be considered human powered motorbikes by your definition.

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Not sure were you got those numbers from, but no. 20-22mph is a good average speed for a very serious rider. Maybe 25 in a peloton. The tour de France averages around 25mph.
But the percentage of bicycle riders who are serious enough to hit those speeds is small.

Electric Rider said:

Serious bikers buy fast bikes and train themselves to get comfortable with these speeds. I am much more afraid of getting hit by one of those guys than anyone with an e-bike that I KNOW Must have a good braking system (and motor cut off brake switch by law).

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Why? Getting hit is getting hit. I be afraid of being hit by anyone moving 20mph on a bike. Its going to hurt. The motor cutoff switch isn't law here, and sort of pointless anyway. its there to appease people who are afraid other people will be too dumb to let go of the throttle before grabbing the brake.

Electric Rider said:

You didn't even address your feelings on the point of my post, which is we should have faster e-bikes to be able to accelerate in an emergency situation.

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Feelings? Ok, I feel 20 is a good legal speed. I feel that 25 is too fast for most casual bikers to responsably handle a bike. I feel it would be in the best intrests of everyone concerned with Ebikes to keep the laws as we have them here, so we can avoid getting ebikes outlawed or treated like motor vehicles. I feel its a bicycle, not a motorcycle. I feel like its best for Ebikes to remain bicycles in the eyes of the law. I feel if you need the power and speed beyond what an Ebike can do, you Need an Electric Motorcycle.

If you're going to play in traffic, bring the propper equipment.


But I also feel like laws are there to guide those who can't make intelegent choices for them selves. Half the world is below average intelegance. I fully support our Ebike laws, and I break every one of them. Often. But I do so in a responsable manner that isn't going to attract negative attention.

My bike will do 40mph, and out accelerate a minivan through an intersection. I ride in the street often, but I would never do it in an area where I was blocking traffic, or were I had to be doing more than 20mph not to block traffic. Its not a motorcycle, and if I treat it like one, people will start to complain to the city, who will react as goverments do by adding more restrictions and laws on ebikes.

Drunkskunk said:

Not sure were you got those numbers from,

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I got those numbers from popular bike clubs and talking to bikers around my area. They all strive to go as fast as they can. I suppose the folks you mention that you feel is indicative of most riders do not belong to bike clubs or are very serious riders. The rest of your post is well understood and I will reply.. after the Saints beat the pants off of the Seahawks.

They exaggerate thier speed. The difference between pedalers and and ebike is the ebike can sustain that speed for miles and miles. Sprint speeds cannot. But the peloton in the TDF can and will come very close to averaging 30 mph all day. Just try to pedal along keeping up with those guys.

Being fast is a two edged sword. Bear in mind, every single driver thinks you will be slow. Oops! how'd he get there so fast? Thump thump.

Oh yeah, you're only going to go fast in an emergency

Why don't you just admit 20 mph feels like you're crawling and you want to haul ass.

Personally, I find 20 mph perfect in some situations and 30 perfect in others. It would be nice if we could legaly have a 30 mph bike, and have speed limits in places where they are needed, like a bike path shared with walkers, etc. Even the cheap bikes I've ridden seemed able to stop ok at 30 mph if they had v brakes. Calipers are another story.

If you live in a place where there's no room for bicycles then its time to drive a car, motorcycle, or move.

I mostly agree with John in CR and think it's probably better to have a bike that's capable of a higher speed, but ride it conservatively. It goes with my motorcycle riding logic in that I had a BMW K100 with 100 horspower, but I didn't drive it 135mph in a school zone. It's one safety advantage experienced motorcycle riders use to a stop real fast or accelerate the hell away from the idiots. And like all powerful toys use the power wisely and it will make your life safer and use it foolishly and crash! My bike only goes 22 mph with my 9C, but when I get my 18s lipo setup I'll still probably only drive it around 25mph average. 8)

dogman said:

Why don't you just admit 20 mph feels like you're crawling and you want to haul ass.

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Not only does it feel like crawling, but in this tropical sun it's too friggin hot and I want the cooling breeze of at least 30. For those so concerned of the increased risk that comes with speed, I submit that 20mph is still too fast for the average Joe on a bike, and 20kph is probably more appropriate if protecting people from themselves is the goal. My attitude is let people decide for themselves just like they must do going down any hill. Instead assign speed limits more appropriately for each roadway/pathway.

Drunkskunk said:

My bike will do 40mph, and out accelerate a minivan through an intersection. I ride in the street often, but I would never do it in an area where I was blocking traffic, or were I had to be doing more than 20mph not to block traffic. Its not a motorcycle, and if I treat it like one, people will start to complain to the city, who will react as goverments do by adding more restrictions and laws on ebikes.

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Well said... so many here strap big power to cheap bicycle frames and ride them as motorcyles, simply isn't
safe the frames weren't designed for this nor were the components, one day someone is going to get serious hurt doing it.
Ride within your ability and that of the bike your riding rather than make the thing faster and structurally unsafe. 40mph is more than fast enough for store bought bicycle with electric motor fitted to it IMO

KiM

The biggest gripe i have with the current ebike laws in Canada is the 500Watt restriction. I need at least 1000Watts to get to work, as this city is full of really steep hills. 1000Watts at 10kmh/20kmh uphill is not dangerous, but for some reason it's way past regulation.

Drunkskunk said:

Feelings? Ok, I feel 20 is a good legal speed. I feel that 25 is too fast for most casual bikers to responsably handle a bike. I feel it would be in the best intrests of everyone concerned with Ebikes to keep the laws as we have them here, so we can avoid getting ebikes outlawed or treated like motor vehicles. I feel its a bicycle, not a motorcycle. I feel like its best for Ebikes to remain bicycles in the eyes of the law. I feel if you need the power and speed beyond what an Ebike can do, you Need an Electric Motorcycle.

If you're going to play in traffic, bring the propper equipment.

But I also feel like laws are there to guide those who can't make intelegent choices for them selves. Half the world is below average intelegance. I fully support our Ebike laws, and I break every one of them. Often. But I do so in a responsable manner that isn't going to attract negative attention.

My bike will do 40mph, and out accelerate a minivan through an intersection. I ride in the street often, but I would never do it in an area where I was blocking traffic, or were I had to be doing more than 20mph not to block traffic. Its not a motorcycle, and if I treat it like one, people will start to complain to the city, who will react as goverments do by adding more restrictions and laws on ebikes.

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Drunkskunk,

You saved me a lot of writing here.

DITTO!

The Federal definition of an e-bike as a bicyle of limited speed and power (somewhat comparable to human power) is a very good thing. Technically you're breaking the Federal law each time you hit the road because of the power of your e-bike, but as long as you ride it like its within the law, no one's gonna get bent out of shape. As you say, lots of folks don't have your good sense. And having a Federal law and/or guideline makes it easier for state legislatures to draft reasonable legislation that's more uniform across the board. Here in Illinois that is just what happened. Is NY State still out in left field?

Those 30 and 40 mph figures seemed awfully inflated to me as well. Just from my own experience, when I'm going 20 the serious spandex folk will go a bit faster, but not much, and some of them pull away from me, not with speed but with stupid chances weaving in and out of cars and illegally though intersections. I appreciate their athleticism and say "bravo", but those who think that they are immortal and act thusly should be taken down a peg or two, before they get themselves taken out for good and squirrel it for the rest of us. That goes for both bikers and e-bikers, IMO, seldom humble.

John in CR said:

Not only does it feel like crawling, but in this tropical sun it's too friggin hot and I want the cooling breeze of at least 30. For those so concerned of the increased risk that comes with speed, I submit that 20mph is still too fast for the average Joe on a bike, and 20kph is probably more appropriate if protecting people from themselves is the goal. My attitude is let people decide for themselves just like they must do going down any hill. Instead assign speed limits more appropriately for each roadway/pathway.

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John,

That probably answers a question I've been wondering about, CR=Costa Rica? If so, I'm envious. So are you laboring under e-bike laws there that you find prohibative, and if so, why not go up in class. The cost there must be pretty low?

John in CR said:

dogman said:

Why don't you just admit 20 mph feels like you're crawling and you want to haul ass.

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Not only does it feel like crawling, but in this tropical sun it's too friggin hot and I want the cooling breeze of at least 30. For those so concerned of the increased risk that comes with speed, I submit that 20mph is still too fast for the average Joe on a bike, and 20kph is probably more appropriate if protecting people from themselves is the goal. My attitude is let people decide for themselves just like they must do going down any hill. Instead assign speed limits more appropriately for each roadway/pathway.

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Couldn't agree more. The law is written for the average Joe. He didn't gravity race bikes when he was young, ( I did) nor did he ride a high powered motorcycle through the school zone at 90 mph, ( I did, but at midnight), nor did he take that 750 out looking for wet greasy roads so he could drift corners. ( I did)

So that average Joe may just be about at his limit with 750 watts going 20 mph. While we riders can easily handle our 40 mph bikes with decent brakes.
I do think 30 mph is a good number in the US for an ebike speed limit on the street. Even the crappy bikes can usually stop from 30, and if it's safe to drive a car through a neighborhood at 25 mph why is it dangerous to ride a bike 25 on a 25 mph street. Limiting to 20 is just silly there.

As for riding on 45 mph streets, you guys know I'm a crazed adrenaline junky but I sure stay the hell off those streets on a bike! Lucky me, I do have other routes I can take. If I ride crosscountry though, then I am on 55 mph roads with no shoulder. In that case I ride slow enough to dive into the ditch anytime I must. I've been put into a ditch many many times. Often you hear the laughter as they go by. Since those guys are doing 80 on the 55 mph road, keeping up is not the answer in NM. All you'd do is get ditched at 45 mph.

One thing is for sure though, It sure would be nice if state law in NM allowed a new category of vehicle. Light motorcycle. CC's up to 150, speed up to 50. Homebuilt bikes like ebikes and Morini's allowed if they can pass a few tests. Head and brake lights and a certain stopping distance at 30 mph. Then you could hang a licence plate on a good fast ebike and ride in the traffic if you want to. No need to take a crappy motorcycle and convert it, just to get the dang vin number. No need to hang useless pedals on it. Then riding in traffic on a 45 mph street would be possible, with a bike able to do 50 and brake lights.

As it is an ebike in NM is a moped, and the speed limit is 25. Not too bad, but 30 would be more realistic. That would make a 9c on 48v a legal bike. Watt limits are stupid. A moped can have a 5 horse motor but an ebike is limited to 1 horse? Dumb. But in NM we are mopeds, so we can put all the power we want on the bike, as long as top speed is 25.

In the end, the fed law doesn't mean squat really. The road rules are set by the states, counties, and cities law, or even park regulations for bike trails. I think a sensible law would be to allow a typical hubmotor kit on 48v to be a legal bicycle. So 1500 watts max power, 30 mph max speed, must be 16 yr old. Then tell the rider to obey all vehicle laws. Speed limits, etc. And then put up speed limit signs where needed, like a bike path shared by mom and the baby buggy. Anybody riding like a bike messenger should be ticketed for unsafe lane changes or whatever.

The big problem with too restrictive watt limits and speed is making the bike into an impractical vehicle. Essentially, you must have a toy, not a transportation device that can climb a hill. Make em toys by law, and they will be seen as useless toys forever.

Dogman wrote:
As it is an ebike in NM is a moped, and the speed limit is 25

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I think you assume that here in NM an ebike is a moped. I am not saying it's not or it isn't, but I haven't been able to find anywhere where an electric bicycle is defined in NM. The US federal law describes it. So if isn't defined by NM law than the federal say's it's a bicycle so it's an electrical bicycle (as long as it meets the fed criteria) and in NM you don't need a license to ride a bicycle. If you can show me the quote in NM law defining an electrical bicycle I might change my mind (open minded and all) I have looked and looked for it and can't find it. I don't assume it's a moped and ride my ebike (albeit) a bit overpowered and assume it's a bicycle. The cops don't even look at me when I drive down the road either, so it doesn't really matter and would only matter if I had to go in front of the court and even then it might take a NM supreme court ruling to decide if is a bicycle or a moped. 8)
So now I am going to hop on my electrical bicycle and go to work. Peace and chicken grease.

Dogman,

You bring up a great point that I've never seen discussed here directly. We can all just agree to disagree about what level of ebike is legally just a bike, and regulation of higher powered ebikes is inevitable and current moped type laws are inadequate at best. The one thing that we have to fight tooth and nail against are laws that create processes or rules that are too onerous and would deter us from building our own ebikes. For the first time in history an average person can easily and economically construct their own motorized vehicle, and to the horror of big manufacturers this should be encouraged not discouraged.

John

Hi Electric Rider,

For 25-30 Mph ebike I recommend a BMC hub motor or Mac Motor. This motor will give enough torque from 0 to top speed.

But this ebike will have a limited top speed and you can't go faster than this, this ebike will be light with a very good range with the right battery pack.

A power full ebike in the 50 Mph + top speed can also build but normally this sort of ebike is heavier. And you need higher voltage to goes fast, power full controller, and normally a bunch of batteries, Lipo's battery pack is good idea to keep this ebike "light" but with 9C motor and 88 Volt (nominal) 15Amps pack you ebike will weight something like 100 pounds.

Also power full ebike normally needs a dual suspension when you go at higher 25 Mph.

Now about you question last summer with my Black Arrow ebike many times, I was riding at 35 Mph in the city and even at that speed many drivers want to pass me and when it was done they just slowing down a front of me without any reasons.

This situation was really boring me, and I'm passing them at 40-45 Mph (totally illegal) but even a that speed I need to ride very carefully because I was invisible and they didn't see me better.

When you ride bike, ebike or motorcycle keep one thing in mind you are invisible for others users on the road and normally they are not welling to share the road with you. Lighting on ebike even for day ride can help to avoid dangerous situation and need to be adding to your future ebike.

It's my 2 cents, good day!
Black Arrow.

In the US, almost any douchebag over 18 can get in a 2-ton scud and text at highway speeds. Give those idiots OTC access to a 30mph bike and they will ignore traffic controls, disregard other riders and mow down pedestrians on bike/footpaths like ripe wheat. That will certainly get ebikes at any power level banned entirely from everywhere *but* the street. Then, they all will be moped classed.

In some cases, more power can be a benefit to a bike in traffic. But, if someone doesn't know how to safely navigate traffic on a regular bike, an ebike with more power probably won't help the situation.

@Ron:
"Technically you're breaking the Federal law each time you hit the road because of the power of your e-bike, ..."
Not really. Fed Regs are CSPC regarding mfr/sales/marketing. Local and state control all traffic.