9c/HS35/X5 Norco 125 DJ 100v project

[Andje]

hmmm i know what i posted may have been misleading, but as i understand it lyen's controllers actually multiply the phase current by about 2, so when i was saying 5kw at 25 amps battery, you'd be seeing 50 amps phase current. Am i totally out to lunch on this? I think i mostly gleaned this from icecubes thread on his 5303, as well as lyens controller threads.
Lots of people have been running 9c's between 2500 and 5000w with upgraded phase wires and cooling holes and not burning them; not flat out obviously; at full speed on flat your amps would drop significantly, but for climbing a hill at wot i would have thought 5kw peaks would be realistic. My trip is only 15 mins max and edging towards 12 as I get towards 60kmph. I will have a temp sensor in there to monitor the temp as well, and will simply back off if i hit my max. But maybe you're right and i'm being unrealistic; in that case I guess i will be needing the x5 quick fast . It will be mostly plug and play since the rest of the bike will be done, quick software change for the amp limit and i'd be off again.

[MadRhino]

It will make it for your needs, but not feeding it 5000W without serious mod. You can program the controller, this means that you can set all the parameters, but also can do stupid things sometimes. Stay within the reasonable limits of the motor, if you want to put it on your GF bike some day.

[Andje]

ahh yes, now that i go and look you can set both the controller and phase currents over the software. So what you saying is don't program it for 5kw . I cant wait to have it for testing; i say 5k but what i really mean is that 5kw seems to be what i'd use going the speeds i want on the grades i will be going up; whatever it takes to go just over 60kmph is prbly where i will end up most of the time; there is one big hill on my commute but otherwise it is fairly straight without any lights. Since a lot of people see good speed around 1-3kw i'll prbly be in that range most of the time i would assume.

I say it'll end up on the gf bike, but only because i hate waste; in the long run she wants one, but it would be a project in like 3 months or so. Pretty much if i smoke the 9c i don't care except that then i wouldn't have a ride till i got my x5 whatever.

[Andje]

resistors arrived, they are boss I'm in a robotics program right now, so huge two inch long ceramic resistors are sick compared to the tiny ones we are using in dc/ac everyday.

did a test in class using 5v psu and a multi meter, in terms of the hall effect throttle signal it is 0.9-4.2 v or so, and a 180 ohm resistor and a 1k pot puts out a perfect signal for this, so i'm going to go ahead and try throwing some lego gears onto my pot and rigging up a throttle from a brake leaver. I would be really happy to be able to do it this easily; it seems like i'm missing something it's so easy.

[Andje]

lyens 18 fet 4110 100v regen enabled controller just arrived. Now i actually have something to do! come up with my mounting solution.

[The Mighty Volt]

lyens 18 fet 4110 100v regen enabled controller just arrived. Now i actually have something to do! come up with my mounting solution.

Hey there, best of luck with the regen, I have a very similar controller {the 72v one with the 4110 Fets} and I would love to hear how you set the Regen up.

I will be plugging my BMS into the brake port.

[Andje]

hah, you're going to be out of luck i'm afraid, I asked lyen to enable regen for me at 100v, and he did it for a small charge. I should be good to go out of the box, because the controller is specifically internally configured for 24s. Maybe i'm wrong and i will need to mod a resistor? i think that is the hack...

here is the bike all stripped
in other news, controller came with my thumb throttle. I decided to try setting it up with brake leaver just for kicks; spent pretty much all day coming up with something that is at least working. I'm fairly happy with it; i could maybe use an extra spring for return of throttle, but it's going off all the way so i think i'm good.
so this is the handle bars. there will be two temp monitors and a cycle analyst in the center of the bars, but apart from that this is all i will have i think. Here's a vid of the mechanism i made.
I think the controller is going to be mounted first to a high durability plastic cutting board i will cut to shape, and then u bolts or some other kind of oval clamp around the frame will bolt the board down to the downtube. The pedals and chain ring do clear.

[Andje]

So I mounted my controller today. It is mounted to a high strength plastic cutting board which is then bolted to the frame using u bolts. I used my broiler to heat up the plastic and then let it set in a u shape ; it now doubles as both my controller mount and as a mudguard/deflector as well.
I will trim all the bolts once i have the thing in its final form; the white board will be painted black or grey like the bike. Heres a vid showing the pedal clearance and some pics of the bike and mount.

[Andje]

ground all the rust off the handle bars today; i will paint them when the whole this is troubleshot and in final assembly.

[Andje]

grabbed some black spray for the mount and did the handle bars as well just to get an idea of what it will look like and to prevent rust. Mount is done and on the bike in final position; i think it looks pretty good now that it is black, very much melts into the frame and looks like it was designed for it.
The thing is rock solid with just a little flex at room temps; i wonder how the cutting board would react to being banged on something at minus 30, but its very protected unless i lay out the bike...
handlebars also look way better painted black; rusty chrome is definitely out.
vid of the bike as it stands today, and one of pedal clearance on the mount. riveting isn't it! I could watch myself spin those pedals all day...

[Andje]

9c arrived today. I wasted no time and ripped that sucker apart, that machined finish aint smooth no more.
Getting the nine continent covers off was difficult; i had a stuck bearing on the wire side from the gunk they use to secure the wires in the channel. It had seeped under the bearing and for the life of me i couldnt budge it without the stator coming with it. Then i found a suggestion on here about banging the other side of the axle. I did that a few times even though it seemed pointless and the cover dropped off. A few more minutes and i had the other cover off, then 20 mins of bashing at the axle to actually get the stuck bearing off. I will buy replacement bearings tomorrow (upgrade). I will be drilling the axle for extra space and then running the largest gauge i can fit through there; i will use 24 (edit:26/28?) awg for the halls rapped inside a bundle of stripped wire with heat shrink to save as much space as possible. I will also want wires in there for a temperature sensor, so in total i will have like 10 wires going into this thing.

My dropouts are steel and are horizontal. This means that they taper slightly from the open end to the closed, and my axle fits only three quarters of the way down the dropouts. I will use the torque washers on the inside and then the supplied torque arms on the outside, drill the dropout for a bolt to mount the torque arm too and I think I will be fine for up to 5kw. I might file the axle to get it fully seated in the dropout, but then the torque arms are much harder to fit due to the bend in the lower bars. Pics of this later too.

I will post some picks later; I am slightly concerned in my bashing i barely nicked the copper in one place; no more force then if you dropped a screwdriver on the stator from like a foot up, but you can see a ding maybe a quarter of a millimeter deep across three wires. It doesn't look like a short, and i assume if i cover it in super glue it will end up insulated just fine as long as there is no actual copper already bent forming a short. I will prbly post a separate topic for advice on it.

[Andje]

norco 125 stripped

right hand torque arm and the torque washer as the inner washer

drill hole here and bolt torque arm down

two washers and a torque washer and then the torque arm outside gives me clearance and i only had to stretch the stays open about a quarter inch, did it by hand so i doubt its dangerous

just get clearance with the hayes brake i already had

[Gregory]

What a handy frame for an e-conversion, could have a bit more room in the triangle for batteries, but nice to see horizontal dropouts and cro molly. I hadn't heard of that Norco before.

Keep up the posts, looking forward to the next installment.

[Andje]

your the first of some 600 views in a while to actually speak, gregory, thanks for the compliment I am looking forward to at least putting up a detailed build done properly.

Once my first load of 6 batts gets here i will be able to really look at if i could ever arrange them on the bike, but honestly i wouldn't be happy unless i could take them off of it in a case or something, so until i can weld a lot better and have a press break handy i wont be building any thin aluminum sheet batt boxes. I haven't decided on something to keep them from puffing up yet; if anyone has any good suggestions that don't involve very malleable floor tiles im all ears . These batts will ideally not be frocked with much, so i could duct tape them if that actually helps... maybe i will make a topic on this.

SO. Got some money today, ordered the rest of my pieces essentially. Paid for the seat post, backpack, the rest of the batteries and the other two bmedics, bought ptfe wire from bulkwire, grabbed some regular bike components from niagra cycles, and finally placed my order with ebikes for spokes and CA. Still need to buy connectors and jst extensions from somewhere; hk was out of both of those crucial things bastards, and i had seen the jst extenders BACK in stock just recently.... Need to grab tubes and tires unless i want to use the kenda kinetics i already have. I might, they are in good condition and im thinking i may just buy roadies in the spring. Bought some of that silicone tape.

So it will be a Nine Continent 9*7 in Sun Rhyno Lite 26*1.75 in winter schwalbe marathon tires with 396 studs, 24s3p 20c turnigy, bulked charged on two 48v 7.3 ah meanwells and balanced via four battery medics that will connect via one large 36 pin connector. I will take it to 100v off the charger or 4.15/cell. I will have 12 awg ptfe teflon going to the phase and 28 awg ptfe for the halls. I will have a thudbuster seat post and an axiom swift hardpack for the batteries. I'll be running 4mm bullets between the batteries going to 100 amp anl fuses which will be series'd together going to either one huge anderson or a bulkhead bank of smaller andersons. There will be a 25w 680 ohm precharge resistor integrated to avoid massive sparks. I will run a CA on the handlebars, and i will have a dual pull e-brake on the left and throttle brake leaver on the right. Three speed selector with my lyens 18 fet controller which i think/hope is configured for regen at 100v already. I will start the 9c off at between 2.5 and 5 kw and see how it goes without cutting the cover into a cheese grater; my commute is only about 15 minutes remember, and the bike will sit for hours between rides. Only one major hill early into the trip. I will have a temp sensor on the stator either way, and will keep it at or under 100c. Disk brakes front and back.

I still have to finalize fenders, a rain proof backpack cover, tires and tubes, and connectors. Lights too, eventually. And a lock. A frocking good one. Im also going to try and just get one of my robotics professors to just let me leave the bike in an office, or locked INSIDE the college in a stairwell under a camera or something. The batts will be with me anyway, but I know how easy it is to dremel any lock. They say if you have to lock up outside, maximize your protection with more then one KIND of lock, that way the thief would need multiple tools. Unfortunately, they have yet to make a bike lock that I have seen that would stand up to a lithium powered dremel cutting wheel... I freed my own kryptonite lock in about 3 mins but you could do it faster with the reinforced cutting disks i now know. I used those rock composite ones that break away.

no real pics today as i didnt drill the frame yet, but i'll get a single speed freewheel tmrw and see what i can fit on the inside of the frame; id rather bolt straight through i think, but if there wasn't enough room for a bolt on the inside i could thread tap the dropout steel and keep it flush on the inside. Tmrw i will also aim to get my two drill press tasks done at my parents place; drill the headtube bolt and enlarge the axle hole ever so slightly. And bearings. I will get those tmrw too.

[MadRhino]

:) your the first of some 600 views in a while to actually speak, gregory,

Everything have been discussed, we are now waiting to see it running, before any further comment.

You are doing nice, keep up.

[Andje]

we are now waiting to see it running

haha yeah no doubt, please don't think i was hating, just trying to encourage friendly compliments to bolster my already enormous ego

[Andje]

ok, so i got an 18 tooth rear freewheel, bolts for the torque arms and upgraded bearings to skf Italian made bearings. Threw it all together, drilled the frame for the torque arms after adjusting my rear disk brake for clearance hear is a vid of the freewheeling and pics of the torque arms without nuts on. Also, i threw the pedal with chainring on and there is a pic of the chain line which looks strait, i may need to get one of those small tensionners to avoid chain slap but maybe not since it will be a single speed i may be able to get away with a tight chain. I broke my last chain break and need to buy a new one, as well as get a new chain anyway.

[Andje]

i have now ordered everything accept connectors; the extensions for the jxt and the 4mm bullets were sold out on hk and im still deciding on a final pack to controller/battery connector.
Total cost; around 2100 dollars. so i would have been around 2500 at least if i had gone with the x5 up front. Im thinking now i may wait for the x54xx to become available, unless i smoke this 9c really quick and need to replace it to have a ride...

[Ykick]

I'm not too familiar with rear drives so please forgive if a stupid question - but is it normal for the hub to be so far offset from the centerline of the frame? Will that require dishing to correct how the tire aligns with center? Or, do you simply run it offset a little?

[icecube57]

I was going to say the same thing. Its way off set. It may be ok if you dont run big tires.

[Andje]

yeah i agree. You can see i have the torque washer on the inside on the right because i feel like i need something there to enlarge the surface area in contact with the dropout to prevent it from wearing on the axle. The spokes i ordered from ebikes.ca are the 13/14 gauge and i ordered 18x167.4mm and 18x169.4mm and plan to dish as much as i can as well; this is an old style 9c with the screw on disk brake remember; it's notorious for needing to be dished i think from what i've read. I could also add a couple washers on the left if i really need to move it over. The frame is slightly stretched as it is, but could prbly go an extra 5 mil no problem. I'm prbly going to stick with the 2.35 kenda kinetic i have right now for the rear, and i think it will probably fit; we will see. As long as the tire isn't rubbing and the wheel is straight and tightened evenly it shouldn't matter that much if the wheel is slightly off center, right?

[Andje]

rims got here. i like. lightweight, strong as hell.

[Andje]

i think the first shipment of batteries are in; ill know at five when i hit the local canadapost office since they stuck a tag on my door and made no attempt to contact me inside the frocking apartment..

[Andje]

So first six bats are in, all are balanced quite well and all are good with no dead or low cells. The other bats just shipped today from china, so if it is a similar 18 days ill see them in march Got my fuses as well, once my wire gets here i can start assembling parallel leads.

[Andje]

Busy day, got my spokes and CA in, as well as my Marathon schwalbe winter tire. I spent the afternoon spoking the rim, these are 13/14 gauge from ebike.ca custom cut to 169.4 and 167.4 to allow for easier dishing. It actually turned out really well i think. A little wobble, but i'll wait to iron it out once its on a real truing stand; for now i did a visual and a tonal check to get it pretty strait. I chose to do alternating spoke heads instead of all on flange side or all facing out because this nine c had bevels on both sides and the spoke heads fit well both ways. I also think i have picked out my CA mount location. The head bolt right there is hollow and i drilled it a little larger then stock which is to allow one brake cable down the tube. The new diameter i'm hoping to run all all the handlebar cables down after i reduce the awg of all the various devices wire to teflon insulated 28 gauge. I think i'll end up with 14 or 15 wires, and i'm pretty sure they'll fit... we shall see.