BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Post Reply
User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:52 am

Whoohoo, I'm out of the closet... The Lurker Closet that is!

The Fleet:
My current commuter is a FWD eZee, with a 48v 10amp/hr LiFePo4 mounted on a 1998 Gary Fisher Aquilla - all steel frame and fork.
I also have a 'broke-dick' Heinzmann 425 watt rear hub, BikeE AT recumbent (which had a 36v 5amp/hr NiCad battery pack).

Hills:
My commute involves some pretty steep (but not too high) hills. My 48v 25amp eZee doesn't have the hill climbing power I want/need.
The eZee really struggles on two of the hills, yes, even when I do condescend to assist!!!

The cure (for all my spare change):
So thanks to all the build notes, and other general discussions on this excellent forum, I've taken the first steps in re-building my BikeE.

I'm hoping to convert this dead Heinzmann BikeE into a 25mph (nice'n'slow) commuter that can also drag my lily-white up a 12% grade at 15mph with no pedaling.
Also, I'm hoping to set it up so that I can cruise at 18mph @ less than 20 watt/hr/mile between hills with a little bit of assistance.
My eZee averages 25 watt/hr/mile for the entire commute, and hits about 20 watt/hr/mile on the flat.
Oh, the commute is 12.5 miles each way, and I have a partial fairing on the BikeE.

Soo... here's what I"ve come upwith:
18s 2P LiPo (6 * 6s 5000mah Zippy from Hobbyking) $294
18 Fet Controller (Lyen) - setup for 60amp and 66v (nominal), 10awg power wires, CA ready, with USB to PC connector: $239
9c 8x8 26" Rear - From Methods (which I will re-lace with a 20" for the BikeE rear wheel) $233
CA DC - From Lyen $110
Cruise control - From Lyen - to help reduce the amount of 'juice' I use when not on the hills.

The 8x8 9c with a 20" rim and 60amps should give me a little over 2 times the hill climbing power of the eZee.
I'm hoping that the 18s pack (74.5v when charged and 63 LVC) will give me about 25 mph on the flat with a little assistance.
If not, then I'll hop up to a 24s 2p system (99.6v charged and 84 lvc - oh the beauty of Lyen's programmable controller!) and
enjoy the ability to burn donuts in the parking lot!!!

LVC - I've not decided as yet, I'm thinking about relying on the CA to guide me as to LVC for the pack, then in addition, have an LED warning system for any one pack that goes under 3.6v.

Charging: i206B with 12v *42amp power supply $145 and $50
1 to 6 parallel charge harness and a 1 to 6 balance harness $14.95 and $7.95
http://progressiverc.com/index.php?page ... t&Itemid=1
and
http://progressiverc.com/index.php?page ... t&Itemid=1

This enables me to charge the 6 LiPos all at the same time with the i206B (4 or 5 hours to recharge the pack?).
I hope to work out how to charge the 18s 2P pack in series, but don't understand quite how to do that as yet.
I keep reading the forums, especially the LiPo for noobs, but somehow, it all hasn't sunk in.
Any advice = gratefully received!!!!

The first step (other than depleting all available cash resources!) was to rewire the 9c.
Here's how I upgraded the wiring to 10awg:

1. Removed the stator from the hub (took some work to pry the covers off, I used the "three box cutter blades" technique to crack the cover seals).
2. Photographed all wires (to assist with the re-build) essential :)
3. Remove all wires from axle.
4. Reamed the axle hole with a 9/32 drill (cordless hand drill, medium speed, with plenty of cutting oil)
then, followed it up with a 19/64 Cobalt drill and finally with a 5/16 Cobalt drill.
By the way, the metal used for the axle (at least on this particular axle) is fairly soft. Reaming out the hole was easy and only took 10 mins.
I'm concerned about the amount of metal left on the axle, as the metal is pretty soft.
I'll keep y'all informed of axle bending experiences I get!!!
5. Opened up the wire exit hole with a dremel (extended the hole 1/8" along the axle away from the stator).
6. Using 10awg Teflon (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0640559877) I cut 3 x 12" lengths.
This particular wire consists of multiple layers of Teflon wrapped around the silvered copper wire core.
I un-wrapped the top layer of Teflon from each of the 12" lengths, then as was able to easily insert these three wires
and 5 new Hall wires (from Cat 5e network cable wire) in the newly reamed axle hole.
I'll say that again.... I was able to EASILY insert the 3 power wires into the axle, and after all three were in, I THEN inserted the cat 5e wires.
7. Solder on the three power wires and the new hall wires
8. Waterproof the wire exit hole.
9. Put the stator back into the wheel and bolt on both covers.
10. Waterproof the wire insert hole.
It took 2 hours from start to finish, I suspect it'll go a lot quicker next time!

Next step: Hook up all electrical components and see if the re-wire worked!
Then following that, remove the 26" rim that came with the hub from Methods, and lace-up a 20" rim...

User avatar
LegendLength
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:41 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by LegendLength » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:51 am

silverheels wrote:6. Using 10awg Teflon (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0640559877) I cut 3 x 12" lengths. This particular wire consists of multiple layers of Teflon wrapped around the silvered copper wire core.
So the teflon exits the axle and goes on for 12 inches or so. Will that finish as the bottom of your 'drip loop' or does it bend enough so that it doesn't leave a big loop of wire after the axel?

From what I've read the teflon wire is quite difficult to bend. I assumed it would be hard to bend it into a arc with radius of of 6 inches even. But that would hang down too far from the axle. I would like an arc radius of like 2 or 3 inches, do you think that's possible?

And if it does bend well enough, why didn't you just use a 5 foot length of teflon rather than 12 inches? I assume it's expense or it's just easier to deal with the silicone wire in other areas of the bike (e.g. battery case entrance).

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34255
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by dogman dan » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Just how long a hill do you plan on pushing 4500 watts for? It'll get hot fast at that rate, so figure on monitoring hub temp too.

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:11 am

LL:
The Teflon is not the bendiest of wire, however it's not bad.
This particular version of Teflon coated wire consists of counter-wound layers of thin Teflon and seems more flexible than some.
I removed the top layer of Teflon, this seems to help with making a reasonably small drip loop, makes a huge difference in
getting all three wires into the 9C hub.

At present, the wire comes out of the axle slot, descends vertically, then loops back up in a 1.5" arc. It's as small a
loop as I could get given the added layers of shrink wrap. I have a U shaped stainless sheet metal protector that is
secured to the axle and protects the wire as it exits the axle. However, there is still the possibility of snagging the exposed parts of the loop.

I'll post some photos when I can work out how to get them on the forum! :)

I have about 3" of wire after the drip loop, this ends in connectors (provided by Ed Lyen), so that should I need
to remove the wheel (puncture?) I can easily disconnect it from the rest of the wiring harness.
Last edited by silverheels on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:35 am

Dogman:

Thanks for the temp hint, it seems to be a key part of the experiment :]

The two hills are short, but steep, at present my eZee (48v LiFePo4, with 22a controller)
and mucho pedalling takes about 10 mins to struggle up the one, and 15 mins for the other.

I'm hoping to test the heat soak then limit the power accordingly. I have read about some folk
adding a temperature probe to the windings, but I've not worked out how to then read the
resulting info from the probe, it would be nice if Justin added a Temp sensor input to the CA!!
Any suggestions or examples of how to go about reading the hub core temp?
I have plenty of space in the axle and can easily pass two more wires.

For testing the heat soak, I'm planing on riding up the first hill (it's right outside my house) with
no peddling with the controller set at 25 amp. Measure the temp with an infrared temperature gun,
time how long it takes for the temp to settle back to 5 deg (C) over ambient. Then, run the test
again at 30amps, then 35 etc, and this way work out how much the DD can take.

Any suggestions/thoughts would be most welcome!!

icecube57
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
Posts: 3590
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:42 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by icecube57 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:48 am

I dont know what hills you have but my 9x7 scoots up anything I throw at it at 66v 45A. Its taken the hill on my street several times in a row... dumping 4000+w into it each time. These motors are alot more forgiving than you think.

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:10 pm

icecube57 wrote:I dont know what hills you have but my 9x7 scoots up anything I throw at it at 66v 45A. Its taken the hill on my street several times in a row... dumping 4000+w into it each time. These motors are alot more forgiving than you think.
Good to hear that!
I guess that as soon as I start playing with it, I'll know whether or not I'll need vent holes in the 9C.
How does one protect the hub if it's vented (it rains a little bit, you know, on and off, here in Stumptown !!!)?

icecube57
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
Posts: 3590
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:42 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by icecube57 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:20 pm

There is supposed to be a spray for corrosion for the covers. Think its Corrosion X and also another spray enamel/varnish for the motor stator and windings itself. I would probably dab some RTV silicon on the hall wire legs. If you are in a sea boarding state/city or just have high humidity in general I would spray the covers with that Corrosion X. Also depending on how your weather is and temps go you dont want condensation build up inside your motor. Store your bike indoors when possible and dont make your holes huge like min if you want to go through the occasional rain.

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:41 pm

icecube57 wrote:There is supposed to be a spray for corrosion for the covers. Think its Corrosion X and also another spray enamel/varnish for the motor stator and windings itself. I would probably dab some RTV silicon on the hall wire legs. If you are in a sea boarding state/city or just have high humidity in general I would spray the covers with that Corrosion X. Also depending on how your weather is and temps go you dont want condensation build up inside your motor. Store your bike indoors when possible and dont make your holes huge like min if you want to go through the occasional rain.
Stumptown = Portland OR.
Not quite sea boarding (approx 60-65 miles inland), but pretty close.
Plenty of rain here-abouts, but some really great scenery to make up for it!
So, if I need to vent it, then 3/4" holes near the center on one side, and 1/4" holes (lots of them) as close to the outer-edge on the other side.
Coat the inside of the hub with Corrosion X (or similar), protect the hall wires and dry/drain the bike after each wet ride... It's doable!
Would that be the way to go?

Is your 9C setup 'sensorless'?
If so, what are the advantages?

icecube57
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
Posts: 3590
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:42 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by icecube57 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:09 pm

Im running sensored... The controller is dual mode. Sensorless proved to be lackluster and not worth the benefits.

People are going to say venting your hub motor isnt going to do much. I think it does but its up to you. Those size holes should be ok. But try something like 1/4 to be more conservative. Since you are in a rainy area.

You dont get hot up there anyways so cooling shouldnt be that much of an issue. Dont go to high in voltage. 66v on a 9C is plenty and Im a big bloke.

If you want to read my personal experience with the cooling holes then read here on my thread with my other motor.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35#p192817

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34255
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by dogman dan » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:37 pm

Venting the hub does plenty, I've seen it on a thermometer. You may not be able to run a whole lot longer, but you'll cool back off again ten times faster vented. I ride though a lot of sand, so it's not an option for me to vent a dirt bike.

Short hills, good. You should have no problems then. If you pulled 4k watts for very long, like 5 miles or so, then you'd have trouble. We never know what a new guy has planned. Some live in the mountians and want to ride some wicked logging roads.

Many are using bbq thermometers for the temp monitoring. I've been just reading the temp at the axles, by sticking a car indoor outdoor thermometers temp sensor to the axle. Crude, inaccurate, but you can at least tell when you are still getting hotter and need to stop, and when you are at temp equilibrium and can keep going. Above 140 F on the axle is about time to stop or at least back off the watts.

LVC. Once you know how your cells are behaving, just watching pack voltage can be enough. Size your pack right, and 99% of the time you have no worries. The other 1% is covered by knowing something stinks when you see low voltage on the CA.

User avatar
geetarboy
100 W
100 W
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:31 pm

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by geetarboy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:52 pm

Hey Silverheels, Sounds like a good plan. I agree w/ Icecube about these motors, I've had mine too hot to touch many times and it takes it. Over 2800 miles runnin 24s w/ the same Lyen's controller you are talkin about. So you should be able to run 24s without any modification. I set my LVC for 3.3v per cell - so 60v for 18s & 80v for 24s. Supposedly the lipo's will last alot longer if you don't charge above 4.15v and don't discharge below 3.3 according to Liveforphysics. I have found I can get a full 5ah's out of a 5ah pack and stay within these limits. I also have a 9c 8x8 on the way from Methods, I am going to swap it out w/ my 9x7. Willing to sacrifice 5mph for a faster take-off and more power on the hills...Have fun with it :D - Mark

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:12 pm

dogman wrote:Venting the hub does plenty, I've seen it on a thermometer. You may not be able to run a whole lot longer, but you'll cool back off again ten times faster vented. I ride though a lot of sand, so it's not an option for me to vent a dirt bike.

Short hills, good. You should have no problems then. If you pulled 4k watts for very long, like 5 miles or so, then you'd have trouble. We never know what a new guy has planned. Some live in the mountians and want to ride some wicked logging roads.

Many are using bbq thermometers for the temp monitoring. I've been just reading the temp at the axles, by sticking a car indoor outdoor thermometers temp sensor to the axle. Crude, inaccurate, but you can at least tell when you are still getting hotter and need to stop, and when you are at temp equilibrium and can keep going. Above 140 F on the axle is about time to stop or at least back off the watts.

LVC. Once you know how your cells are behaving, just watching pack voltage can be enough. Size your pack right, and 99% of the time you have no worries. The other 1% is covered by knowing something stinks when you see low voltage on the CA.
Thanks Dogman, I appreciate the feedback.
I'm thinking I'll run without vent holes initially. I've got a test regime in mind, and I'll be monitoring the temps with an internal sensor (yup, gunna run two more Cat5 wires through the axle... :} ), then when I've got a better understanding of the hub's ability to heat soak (and providing I have not melted the armature!), I'll decide on the vent/allow moisture in - versus - no vent/allow condensation to buildup!

I'm still looking to be conservative with the LiPos. Not having any experience with them I'll be charging them outside in a burnproof bag, and monitoring cell balance and LVC. However, I'm looking forward to the amount of power I should be able to pull out of the pack!

My 8x8 is in at the LBS (Ebikestore.com Portland OR) for lacing to a 20" rim... another step closer!

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:17 pm

geetarboy wrote:Hey Silverheels, Sounds like a good plan. I agree w/ Icecube about these motors, I've had mine too hot to touch many times and it takes it. Over 2800 miles runnin 24s w/ the same Lyen's controller you are talkin about. So you should be able to run 24s without any modification. I set my LVC for 3.3v per cell - so 60v for 18s & 80v for 24s. Supposedly the lipo's will last alot longer if you don't charge above 4.15v and don't discharge below 3.3 according to Liveforphysics. I have found I can get a full 5ah's out of a 5ah pack and stay within these limits. I also have a 9c 8x8 on the way from Methods, I am going to swap it out w/ my 9x7. Willing to sacrifice 5mph for a faster take-off and more power on the hills...Have fun with it :D - Mark
Cool! I'm looking forward to seeing how 4kw feels...
How do you charge your LiPo pack(s)?
Not knowing much, and having read too much, but understood little... I'm playing the conservative card with the LiPo charging deal. Got any hints?

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34255
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by dogman dan » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:14 am

I have melted a 9c motor. 3500 watts, and I was stalling the crap out of it climing some crazy steep hills on a pipeline road. 20 degrees kind of stuff.

It melted the solder off the phase wires, and a big bump disconnected all three. Some twine that ties down the windings was burnt to a crisp. Motors running again now, after soldering the wires back on.

On other motors, I've had issues with magnet epoxy melting, and even demagnetized some magnets. both those were brushed motors though.

User avatar
geetarboy
100 W
100 W
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:31 pm

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by geetarboy » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:54 pm

dogman wrote:I have melted a 9c motor. 3500 watts, and I was stalling the crap out of it climing some crazy steep hills on a pipeline road. 20 degrees kind of stuff.

It melted the solder off the phase wires, and a big bump disconnected all three. Some twine that ties down the windings was burnt to a crisp. Motors running again now, after soldering the wires back on.

On other motors, I've had issues with magnet epoxy melting, and even demagnetized some magnets. both those were brushed motors though.
You have obviously pushed yours alot harder than me. I don't think I've had mine "wide open throttle" for more than 2 minutes, I don't go off-road and there aren't as steep of hills here in KC. My goal is to keep up w/ 35mph urban traffic. Nothing is indestructable, but these 9c's are pretty damn tough. I've thought about drilling some vent holes but I ride in all kinds of weather and that could cause as big a problem as overheating IMO...Mark

User avatar
Andje
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:03 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by Andje » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:29 pm

i'm running my 9c 9*7 at 50 amps 100v and held 85km/h on the canal drive for about a minute. I can sustain 60+ with little heating over 15 mins to half an hour on the road. That is with ambient air below zero though, haven't tested it in the mid summer. But they can certainly take the 5kw for brief periods.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

User avatar
silverheels
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:36 am

Re: BikeE - 9c 8x8 - 18s 2P -Lyen 18 Fet Project

Post by silverheels » Thu May 19, 2011 11:42 pm

Andje,
That's a chunk of power! How're going to cool the motor in the summer?
Oh that's right, that thing on the right hand side of the handlebars ... is not an 'on/off' switch it's a throttle :shock: ...!

Talking about Frying.. I blew a FET on my commuter bike yesterday.
It's an eZee front hub with 16s LiFePo4 10ah battery (53v max) that has about 900 nice easy commuter miles (25 each day). Since I'm planning on using LiPo for my recumbent build, I though I would 'practise-up' on the whole LiPo thing.

So,for the last week (or more) I've been testing a 14s 2p LiPo setup on the eZee. Similar weight to the LiFePo4 setup, and twice the power. I get a little more top-end (24 instead of 21mph) and 1250 watts max instead of 1050. Cool beans.

Plus the LiPo pack gets charged in way less time time than the LiFe pack.
(The 'to-work' trip uses about 4amp hours on the LiFoPo and I have to charge the pack at work (2hr 40 mins), the return trip uses about 5amp hours and needs 3:20 to recharge. Whereas the LiPo uses 7.5 ah for the day and get's charged in about 2.8 hours once I get home.)

I really like the LiPo. The voltage sage is less noticeable, and it seems easy to manage 'pack health' using the CA and battery Medics (no BMS or LVC at the moment, though Ed's experience with over-discharging his LiPo pack makes me pause for thought).

However, the jump from 53v max to 58v max was just a little too much for the eZee controller, darn it!
So I've had to jury rig my Lyen 18Fet controller on to eZee so I can still get to work, and am now pulling a whopping 20a through those 12 4110 FETs. We're talking FET overkill!!!

When I first hooked up the Lyen to the eZee motor, the motor ran backwards at medium speed even though no Throttle was applied.. :!:
After a little thought it seemed that the Throttle Hall/ground wire were reversed, but, It turned out that I needed to reverse the Power (+ or red) and the Hall wire (green) to get the throttle to work??!?!!
That fixed the throttle issue.
But the backwards rotation..? time to play with the pin-out on the Phase and Hall wires...
With a couple o'shots of 'John Powers' golden nectar, and some judicious pin swapping I managed to get the eZee to rotate the right way, and not growl in the process.

In case anyone needs it, here is the Phase/Hall/Throttle wiring setup that I ended up using to make the Lyen controller work with my late model (Feb 2011) eZee from Wake Gregg of http://www.ebikestore.com in Portland OR (he's a reseller for Justin's imports).

No guarantees, but it seems to be working fine for me:-

C = Controller
M = Motor

Phase wires:
C-Y = M-Y
C-B = M-G
C-G = M-B

Hall wires:
C-B = M-B
C-G = M-Y
C-Y = M-G

And of course the throttle connector, I reversed the red and hall return wire on the Throttle side of the connector.
It all seems to be working -

Whoo-hoo, I'm electrified again!

Anyone got some tips on how to rebuild/repair the eZee controller?
Seems like 6 nice 4110 FETs and a little soldering might get my eZee controller back in business.

Say, can anyone share with me how to measure the resistance of the shunt in my Lyen 18FET controller?
I would like to setup my CA to more accurately record my power consumption.

Post Reply