Please help me electrify my trike...

[recumpence]

I have alot of experience building electric tadpoles. I can give you whatever info you need regarding handling and what-not. I am also familiar with AB, though not with their trikes.

I would steer you toward a hub motor to start with because they are easy to deal with. Lipo is actually a good choice because the new chemistries are very tolerant these days. You can bulk charge. There are 12S charger out there. But, it is good to gain as much knowledge as you can about lipo to be sure you know what you have.

PM me if you would like my phone number (are you in the US?) and we can talk directly.

Matt

[docnjoj]

That's odd to me. The ebike.ca simulator only shows about a 1-3 ft/lbs of torque loss going from the 2807 to the 2806 wind, but almost a 5 mph gain on top speed, and efficiency. Meanwhile the 2805 hub raises my top speed to about 48mph, but drops the torque to about 48 also.

I asked Justin @ ebike.ca about the rear torque arm - he said it's not required on a steel frame such as mine?
corkscrew

Well Justin is the man when it comes to electric bikes. I have personally spun 3 motors in steel dropouts and not one since I started using torque arms. Perhaps the old steel suspension arms were of poor quality? My wife has a delta trike and we use 2 torque arms on her front steel fork! Better safe than sorry.

Matt (Recumpence) is a world class machinist and makes some great products!
I only use 20"wheels and the 2807 really gets off the line fast, with wheelspin, if I want. As you would expect the top speed is a bit limited but I prefer the torque when getting away from stop signs or crossing busy intersections.
otherDoc

[corkscrew]

Well Justin is the man when it comes to electric bikes. I have personally spun 3 motors in steel dropouts and not one since I started using torque arms. Perhaps the old steel suspension arms were of poor quality? My wife has a delta trike and we use 2 torque arms on her front steel fork! Better safe than sorry.

Matt (Recumpence) is a world class machinist and makes some great products!
I only use 20"wheels and the 2807 really gets off the line fast, with wheelspin, if I want. As you would expect the top speed is a bit limited but I prefer the torque when getting away from stop signs or crossing busy intersections.
otherDoc

Were all your motor spin outs in a front fork? I'll try and track down a rear torque arm anyway. I have to over engineer things now to help prevent my own idiocy later down the road.

I revisited the simulator just now - I think I will stick with the 2807, the power line is much smoother of a drop, and it still puts me with a top speed of 35ish on a 44.4v battery. I bet you beat most people off the line with a 2807 in a 20" wheel.

I have alot of experience building electric tadpoles. I can give you whatever info you need regarding handling and what-not. I am also familiar with AB, though not with their trikes.

I would steer you toward a hub motor to start with because they are easy to deal with. Lipo is actually a good choice because the new chemistries are very tolerant these days. You can bulk charge. There are 12S charger out there. But, it is good to gain as much knowledge as you can about lipo to be sure you know what you have.

PM me if you would like my phone number (are you in the US?) and we can talk directly.

Matt

Yeah, the more I obsess over this project the hub motor keeps coming back up, as it seems better sealed than most other options, and I don't want a fair weather trike. I'll PM you.

So to the other trikers - what's your preferred throttle? I *hated* the twist shifters that my trike came with. Are the thumb throttles easy to use on the vertical handlebars?

[kriskros]

i use a thumb throttle on my tadpole....had a piece of aluminum rod 11/2" long tapped for 1/4 ,20 bolt and machined to fit the throttle diameter and the curve of a hose clamp...a hole was drilled in the hose clampfor the bolt and attached to the throttle...hose clampe sc rewed to the upright steering control... works very well

[docnjoj]

Were all your motor spin outs in a front fork? I'll try and track down a rear torque arm anyway. I have to over engineer things now to help prevent my own idiocy later down the road.


Yeah, the more I obsess over this project the hub motor keeps coming back up, as it seems better sealed than most other options, and I don't want a fair weather trike. I'll PM you.

So to the other trikers - what's your preferred throttle? I *hated* the twist shifters that my trike came with. Are the thumb throttles easy to use on the vertical handlebars?

[/quote]


Luckily all my spinouts were rear ones. One front one can ruin your whole day
I use a thumb throttle slightly modified by cutting off the horn where the wires stick out and smoothing wire entry with epoxy putty. I hate twist throttles and twist shifters and never use them unless I modify with a thumb lever from and old headlight mount. Dogman has a good trick for that. For shifters nothing beats bar end ones.
otherDoc

[corkscrew]

Eeek, well I will certainly locate a torque arm or two.

I'm having a hard time picturing how you guys are mounting the thumb throttles. I'll search for Dogman's mod when I get some more time online.

So would I be able to bulk charge with an Icharger1010b? (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6609) I like the multi balance cables they offer for those chargers. When balance charging a 20A/h 48V pack of 8 6s 5a/h cells, would i be able to balance the the individual sides of parallel 22.2V 20A/H with one of these cables? Or would it be smarter to break it down farther to balance charge? http://www.progressiverc.com/index.php/parallel-6x-balance-adapter.html

I'm hoping to order parts tomorrow. Might have to wait till ebike.ca gets the 40amp controllers in though.

Once the batteries arrived and I have a better idea of the sizes (I'm a visual person lol), I'm hoping to take the bike to my friends shop. Sounds like a stainless steel battery box might be in the works.

Does anyone have thoughts on Lipo and regen? According to ebike.ca the 20C output 2C recharge pack is well within the regen means. I just was wondering if anyone had anything else to add? Here is ebike.ca's page on regen: http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_controllers.php - I suppose it would just be like a momentary bulk charge?

[corkscrew]

Well ok - money was deposited this morning.

Already ordered $400 of LIPO packs from the Hobbyking USA warehouse. Only $.01 shipping.

Put in an e-mail order for the 9C kit + Thumb Throttle + 40amp Controller + Large Screen Cycle Analyst and 11-32 8 speed freewheel with spacer. Figuring should be ok to cold space my steel frame a few MM for clearance purposes. If so I still have some 8 speed Shimano Bar End shifters that I can use instead of the 9 Speeds I currently have installed.

Talking with Gary (GGoodrum on the site) about getting his "EOS1420iNET3+12s Charging Harness Kit + 2x6s LiPo LVC Kit Combo" whenever it comes back into stock. That will give me cell level LVC protection at the very least. Also like that I'd be able to balance charge the whole pack at once. Meaning the only bulk charging I'd deal with is during regen mode when using the motor to brake.

I suppose it's all coming together....

[ebent]

]

etrike.jpg (68.96 KiB) Viewed 411 times

Corkscrew,
Here are the pics you asked for.

[corkscrew]

Thanks for the pics! Looks like a very sturdy setup.

Well still waiting on the paypal invoice from ebikes.ca, but they just got the 40amp controllers in today. In the mean time, my batteries are packed and about to ship, I've ordered a universal torque arm from e-bikekit.com, and have 3 8 speed chains coming in from Jensen USA.

Once I hear back from GGoodrum about the chargers, I should be set.

[rscamp]

Corkscrew.

FWIW, I have done something similar - powering a tadpole trike with a hub motor, using LiPos, powering 12V lights and accessories using DC converters, etc. All this is documented on BentRider in my thread from last year. You need to join to see the pics:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... tric+trice

Since then I have also converted another trike and got some experience with a BionX system...

[corkscrew]

I'm actually on the BROL forums, under the same name.

Just went through most of your build. I like that your using these (http://www.castlecreations.com/products/ccbec.html) Castle Creations BEC's to drop voltage for your lights. Are you using Magicshines? It might be just the ticket I'm looking for, as much as I like the cycle luminators that e-bike.ca sells, I could go with two BEC's and two Magicshine light heads for less than half the cost!

In other news, I bought a used Mean Well 24V -500watt 20amp Power supply off of e-bay. Can't wait till the chargers come back into stock!

[rscamp]

I'm actually on the BROL forums, under the same name.

Just went through most of your build. I like that your using these (http://www.castlecreations.com/products/ccbec.html) Castle Creations BEC's to drop voltage for your lights. Are you using Magicshines? It might be just the ticket I'm looking for, as much as I like the cycle luminators that e-bike.ca sells, I could go with two BEC's and two Magicshine light heads for less than half the cost!

In other news, I bought a used Mean Well 24V -500watt 20amp Power supply off of e-bay. Can't wait till the chargers come back into stock!

Ack! Sorry I missed you. Well, welcome to 'bents!

Yes, I had a 2s (8.4V) P7 flashlight from DealExtreme that I put dummy cells in to run it off the CC DC-DC converter. I'll probably save some weight and replace it with a Magicshine lighthead. I already had all the R/C stuff including the CastleLink for programming the BEC. A while ago I got a Hyperion 1420i and a 27V, 1000W power supply to charge the 12s2p pack. Are you looking for one of these chargers? They are currently in stock at http://www.rcflightstore.com/index.php?cPath=30_55. Unfortunately, the PS you got is a bit underpowered for this charger...

[corkscrew]

Yeah I'm aware the PSU will be a bit underpowered, but it just means slower charge times right? I'm ok if that's the case. I should only need to charge it once a day anyway in the evenings.

I was waiting for this kit: http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE-x-12S-CHG-HRNSS%2BLVC%2B1420i to come back into stock, since the owner is an ES member. Seeing how it's the last thing for me to order though (Minus a bunch of anderson powerpoles), I might go ahead with that link you sent.

Oh, I'm trying to wrap my head around the battery setup, is this along the lines of what I'll have to do to get 44.4V / 20Ah out of 8 6s 5000mAh bricks?



Pardon the use of MSPAINT.

[rscamp]

You need to parallel up two groups of four and then connect these two in series with eachother to make a 12s4p pack. Sorry, I don't have a diagram. Connect the negative of the one group to the positive of the other.

[Gordo]

Yeah I'm aware the PSU will be a bit underpowered, but it just means slower charge times right? I'm ok if that's the case. I should only need to charge it once a day anyway in the evenings.

I was waiting for this kit: http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE-x-12S-CHG-HRNSS%2BLVC%2B1420i to come back into stock, since the owner is an ES member. Seeing how it's the last thing for me to order though (Minus a bunch of anderson powerpoles), I might go ahead with that link you sent.

Oh, I'm trying to wrap my head around the battery setup, is this along the lines of what I'll have to do to get 44.4V / 20Ah out of 8 6s 5000mAh bricks?



Pardon the use of MSPAINT.

WAIT, That is wrong. You have 22V+ from one set of 4 on the left terminal and 24V- from the other set on the same terminal.

batteryblankmod2.jpg (41.66 KiB) Viewed 310 times

Try this one. Sorry for the spazout on paint, never used it before.

[corkscrew]

WAIT, That is wrong. You have 22V+ from one set of 4 on the left terminal and 24V- from the other set on the same terminal.

batteryblankmod2.jpg

Try this one. Sorry for the spazout on paint, never used it before.

THIS is why I'm figuring this out before my batteries arrive.

Thanks for the edit, mspaint is good for this stuff.

It makes a lot more sense now.

[Gordo]

WAIT, That is wrong. You have 22V+ from one set of 4 on the left terminal and 24V- from the other set on the same terminal.

batteryblankmod2.jpg

Try this one. Sorry for the spazout on paint, never used it before.

THIS is why I'm figuring this out before my batteries arrive.

Maybe do a little more reading on series/parallel circuits? Play around with some alkaline "AA" that are almost dead? Do you have a multimeter?

http://www.ted.com/talks/annmarie_thoma ... dium=email This is not meant for you, just something I found entertaining and great for my wife and daughter.

[corkscrew]

Maybe do a little more reading on series/parallel circuits? Play around with some alkaline "AA" that are almost dead? Do you have a multimeter?

http://www.ted.com/talks/annmarie_thoma ... dium=email This is not meant for you, just something I found entertaining and great for my wife and daughter.

I believe I've got it down now. I do own a multimeter. I really shouldn't try to design circuits when I should be working...

http://www.ted.com/talks/annmarie_thoma ... dium=email

Ha! I like it. I have two brothers about to graduate in Electrical Engineering, I think they might find this fun.

Well, ordered a 1420I charger last night, as well as GGoodrum's 12S charging cable + 2x6s parallel + LVC kit. Sent the pdf to my brothers and one replied saying as long as I get it to him while he's still in school for EE, that he'd solder it up for a bottle of good vodka. So that's covered.

Spent WAY to much money on buying anderson power poles last night too, but hopefully will have enough connectors to complete this build + some extras for whatever I add later. Ordered 25 feet of their 10 gauge zip wire too. Hoping to run all the primary power wires as 10 gauge with 45amp anderson connectors. I bought a fuse too - it comes with two 40amp fuses, but am I going to want to run higher rated fuses due to having a 40amp peak controller?

Just sent my payment to ebikes.ca - hopefully in the next week or two I can start assembling this whole mess.

I started with 1300 set aside for all of this - I went over by 344.65 - Not terrible in the long run I suppose.

[corkscrew]

Random update to keep this alive until all my parts arrive.

Got an update from ebikes.ca - they ran out of the 2807 700C kits in between when I placed my order and when I sent my payment.

So they are building a 2806 rear hub into a 700C wheel for me with Sapim 13ga spokes @ half the price of normal wheel builds + spokes.

So faster hub and sturdier build for meeeee!

Other than that, everything is in the mail, but with hobbyking not issuing tracking numbers, and the wheel build delay, who knows when it'll all come in!

[corkscrew]

Thought I'd give this an update finally.

All the parts are in for the most part. Have my stainless steel battery boxes made and mountable to the side of the trike, right behind where the seat sits. Just have to find some aluminum to make some custom covers for them. One will have my 48V->12V Dc converter in it, along with 4 of the 6S 5AH turnigys. The other will have a 100amp circuit breaker along with the other 4 batteries. The TPpacks LVC board and 8 12" 6S balance extenders mounts under the trikes tube, in between the two stainless steel boxes. The main charge plug will be secured out of that radioshack project box, once I get some better heat shrink wrap. (Do you know how hard it is to find sheets of shrink wrap in Boise ID???).

Mounted the controller just in front of my seat (power leads made more sense that way) with a piece of plywood and some 2" u-bolts. It works for now, but will be finding a piece of aluminum or stainless to exchange for the plywood. I like that I'll be able to reach the controllers power button when riding.

So now just figuring out a few things on the boxes before I label them as "complete". Mainly where I want the powerpole panel mounts to exit. Also wondering if I should add a 12V computer fan - I have room in the boxes to add an 80mm fan on each one to act as a vent, but not sure if it's a good idea or not as far as waterproofing goes. Will have to see how hot the boxes/batteries get come summer.
(Two paralleled bricks of 4 turnigy's per side, so 22.2V @ 20AH - then a serial connect line will run between the two boxes, finally equaling a 44.4V 20AH setup.

One point of confusion - is that a 12S2P battery, or a 12S4P battery? I have two packs making up the battery, so that makes me think 2, but I have 4 sets of serial connected batteries technically, so that makes me think 12S4P.

I'm short on pics, but I did shoot a little video last night when I was testing the setup after I got the battery pack all wired up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vtPrfcZne4&feature=player_embedded

I'm a bit irked though - after shooting this vid I was discharging the entire pack down to 60% (storage charge), since they might be sitting for awhile before I get it on the road. 40 minutes in, something sparked in the charger, and left me SOL. Hyperion USA has already said they will replace it though, so I sent my receipt, RMA form, and the charger back this morning.

[corkscrew]

Snapped some pics - thought I'd put them up here to help document my progress.

[rscamp]

Cool!

A few comments based on the pics:

The controller appears to be up front but the motor and batteries are near the back. This makes for long runs and associated greater voltage drops when currents are high for these the main power wires.

The batteries will need to be protected from abrasion and held in place. Will you be using compression or double sided tape or... ?

The torque arm is lever is projecting a very shallow angle between the motor axle, the intermediate pivot point and the attachment point on the arm. Therefore, it won't be very good for resisting torque. The closer this is to 90 Deg. the better.

Nice low positioning of the battery boxes!

[corkscrew]

Cool!

A few comments based on the pics:

The controller appears to be up front but the motor and batteries are near the back. This makes for long runs and associated greater voltage drops when currents are high for these the main power wires.

The batteries will need to be protected from abrasion and held in place. Will you be using compression or double sided tape or... ?

The torque arm is lever is projecting a very shallow angle between the motor axle, the intermediate pivot point and the attachment point on the arm. Therefore, it won't be very good for resisting torque. The closer this is to 90 Deg. the better.

Nice low positioning of the battery boxes!

On the controller - With the supplied cable lengths from the e-bikes.ca kit - nearly everything lines up to not need extended and is not pulled taut, but not need shortened either. I first attempted mounting the controller under the rear rack (it clears rather well), however I would have had to extend my e-brake, throttle and cycle analyst connections. Should I bother shortening the motor cable & hall sensors a bit? I like having the controller in front of where my seat will be, as it grants access to the power button for the system while sitting.

The boxes are a work in progress - they are mounted as is stuck together with heavy duty 3M double sided tape. Before I go and start running them, there will be a lining of a wide gasket style sealing tape around the boxes, and they will be compressed in when the side panels mount on. I'm also hoping to order some shrink wrap sheeting to wrap both battery groups, I just can not find any locally so far, and need to wait till payday to order some. Then again, I'm tempted to run without the LVC kit and add another two batteries (1 per side) for a 25A/H group.

On the torque arm - should I just move the attatchement point to more of a 90 degree angle, say maybe to the seat stay vs the chain stay? I won't be able to move the pivot point and still connect to the frame.

Thanks for the comment on the boxes! With the seat installed you can hardly see them. I'm lucky to have buddies with stainless steel and tig welders.

[rscamp]

Whether or not shortening the wires is worthwhile from a functional viewpoint depends mainly on current draw and how fussy you are about reducing voltage drop. If you have a beefy controller and run at high currents, you would probably notice the difference. If not, you probably won't. I shorten wires as much to avoid bundling wires or routing them the length of the bike as anything. My controller is behind/under the seat and it is easy to reach too.

Regarding the torque arm, if you flip the base portion over won't the pivot point end up close to 90 Deg?

[corkscrew]

Whether or not shortening the wires is worthwhile from a functional viewpoint depends mainly on current draw and how fussy you are about reducing voltage drop. If you have a beefy controller and run at high currents, you would probably notice the difference. If not, you probably won't. I shorten wires as much to avoid bundling wires or routing them the length of the bike as anything. My controller is behind/under the seat and it is easy to reach too.

Regarding the torque arm, if you flip the base portion over won't the pivot point end up close to 90 Deg?

Ah ok. The controller is a 40amp Infineon, and I'll be running a 12S setup. Batteries are paralleled with 12gauge wire (need to upgrade to 10gauge and 75amp Andersons), and then serially connected with 10gauge wire, which is what the rest of the system will use. I'll probably leave it as is for now since everything is lining up rather neatly - once it's put together, if I see any drastic voltage drop, I'll look into moving it/shortening the power wires.

I seem to remember having problems flipping the pivot point (as far as getting the screw/nut to clear), but I'll play with it when I get home tonight.