Advice please for a beginner electrifying a KMX Trike.UPDATE

I have an ordinary bike that I put in a hub motor from Alien Ocean. It is only a 250W and struggles a bit on hills. Though has helped me to start cycling to work again, a roughly 20 mile round trip on a cycle track, it is nice to know after a 12 hour shift that I don't have to peddle too hard to get home!

But I now have caught the electric power bug.

So I bought a second hand KMX X Class with the intention of powering it with a more powerful electric motor. I am looking to a maximum of 25 to 35 mph but also the ability to climb a 10% hill with ease.

I wanted to have a motor that drove through the gears so that it could go uphill as well as fast. Some sort of mid drive that allowed the motor to run without turning the peddles and allowed you to peddle without turning the motor. I found a site with cyclone motors on that looked like they would do the job.

Then I discovered this excellent forum and all the helpful people here.

After reading lots of threads here I think I am leaning towards a brushless hub motor again because of low noise, simplicity, "stealth", and I did not know that such powerful ones were available.

I have some requests for help and advice from you knowledgeable people.

1. I have set the steering on the KMX to the factory settings of 2mm toe in measured at 20cm from the ground. I find the steering to be very twitchy and sensitive. Is there a better setting or is it because I have not had a tadpole trike before and am not used to the steering?

2. I think that I will buy a Crystalyte HS3540 for the rear but don't know which controller to use. I want a hand throttle and the ability to run from 36 to 72 volts (LiPo) to give flexibility, I don't want to have to peddle for the motor to run.

3. I am in the UK so I would like to source the parts locally to avoid import duty, any suppliers you would recommend?

Many Thanks


Edit: Added Trike to the Title - Thanks Gordo!

welcome. Crystalyte has a 24 - 72v controller that allows any voltage up to 72v. It's about a $130 last time I checked. I bought one myself. Almost every hub motor works without having to pedal. With rear hubs, they use a freewheel bracket (can't remember the name) so that the pedals don't move when the motor does. With front hubs, none of that is needed.

The cyclone motor is a mid-drive motor and I think it's a little more efficient than the hubs but it also breaks more often because you have more components involved so I recommend hub motors. Hub motors are maintenance free.

Hub motors
***************
crystalyte
ezee
nine continent
aotema


Are usually the top 4 that people buy. There is also BMC but I don't recommend those. Http://ebikes.ca has a simulator that you can look and see what each motor does. Here is the link to the simulator

http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

I can't say much about the new clyte motors since I don't have one. But I think I can say, the high speed version is not the best for climbing a 10% hill. For the hills you want the slower torque model. If its too slow, then volt up. If the hills were less steep, then the hs model would likely be ok. In general, an average speed winding motor deals easily with 5%, gets up 7% ok, but starts to struggle and make lots of heat at 10%.

A lot of course depends on length of the hill. If you have more than 1/2 mile of that 10%, you'll start wanting lower speed windings than the fastest one.

i have recumbent trike too .... a puma geared motor , 36v,20amp,A123 lifepo4 cell=man battery and a 36v,40 amp lyen controller,,, speed about 40kph, range, withsome pedaling about 70k,, good torque with this battery and motor combo.. geared motors have good torque,alittle less speed than DD and also they freewheel, if you are into some pedaling..... puma or mac motors are available from cell-man[ a VERY good supplier] see index ,items for sale ,new... about $150.00 laced int a rim ... buying direct from china source is MUCH cheaper than local[at least it is in canada] local suppliers have to import,pay duties,ect and make a profit

Planky said:

So I bought a second hand KMX X Class with the intention of powering it with a more powerful electric motor. I am looking to a maximum of 25 to 35 mph but also the ability to climb a 10% hill with ease.

Many Thanks

Click to expand...

Hi Planky;
Welcome to ES.

Perhaps put "TRIKE" in your header to attract the trike-guys to your post?

Hi Planky and welcome to ES. The 2mm toe-in sounds about right but check with FFR trikes as they are quite knowledgeable and sell KMX. Recumpence from this board knows KMX very well and could offer expert advice. I run my trike at about 1- 2mm toe-in but it really is not twitchy at all. I rarely go much over 20 mph though and usually less. Just remember the more toe you run the faster your front tires will wear out and the more "scrub off" of speed occurs. Best of luck with your project. Oh yeah, I run a rear 9 Continent at 36 volts but have used it up to 54 volts.
otherDoc

Gordo said:

Perhaps put "TRIKE" in your header to attract the trike-guys to your post?

Click to expand...

Thanks Gordo, good idea.

A few years ago I had the luck to be on Vancouver Island and went out on a mountain bike ride with some guys from a bike shop near Campbell River. You are very lucky to live on Vancouver Island it is lovely there.

morph999 said:

welcome. Crystalyte has a 24 - 72v controller that allows any voltage up to 72v. It's about a $130 last time I checked. I bought one myself.

Click to expand...

Hi morph,

I had a look at the controllers on http://www.crystalyte-europe.com/ and they have controllers labelled 36-48V or 72V but do not have any information on them other than that, no mention of cut off voltages etc.

Thanks

Recumpence from this board knows KMX very well and could offer expert advice.

Click to expand...

+1 for recumpence (Matt.S) his gear is first class checkout his monster KMX
dual Astro 3220 build (now back to single motor)

[youtube]WKAMus3oSdw[/youtube]

Now you might not want something this insanely fast but Matt does
single motored drives with Astro 3220 and the smaller 3210 Astro
motors, you can buy everything from Matt to bolt onto your
KMX and be up and running, he has dozens of happy customers
myself included!

All the best with your project whichever way you go.

KiM

dogman said:

I can't say much about the new clyte motors since I don't have one. But I think I can say, the high speed version is not the best for climbing a 10% hill. For the hills you want the slower torque model. If its too slow, then volt up. If the hills were less steep, then the hs model would likely be ok. In general, an average speed winding motor deals easily with 5%, gets up 7% ok, but starts to struggle and make lots of heat at 10%.

A lot of course depends on length of the hill. If you have more than 1/2 mile of that 10%, you'll start wanting lower speed windings than the fastest one.

Click to expand...

Hi Dogman,
I based the choice of the HS over the HT on the videos by Powerinmotion:

This hill is a little longer and steeper (going on the look of it!) than the two hills on my commute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agmE6s4nuJM

I will go and try and play with the simulator on http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

Thanks

AussieJester said:

Recumpence from this board knows KMX very well and could offer expert advice.

Click to expand...

+1 for recumpence (Matt.S) his gear is first class checkout his monster KMX
dual Astro 3220 build (now back to single motor)

[youtube]WKAMus3oSdw[/youtube]

Now you might not want something this insanely fast but Matt does
single motored drives with Astro 3220 and the smaller 3210 Astro
motors, you can buy everything from Matt to bolt onto your
KMX and be up and running, he has dozens of happy customers
myself included!

All the best with your project whichever way you go.

KiM

Click to expand...

That is just awesome. Though probably a bit too powerful for me.

The cutoff for the 24v - 72v is 21v at least it is on mine. They might be making them only 36v - 72v now. If so, the cutoff would be around 33v or less. So you'd have to be in charge of the cutoff for your battery.

Have you seen this? It's an E+ kit...it has a controller and battery in one rim and motor in the other rim. It's very cool and stealthy. It's very convenient too because all you have to do is lock up each rim if you plan on leaving the bike somewhere.



http://epluselectricbike.com/discover-your-electric-bike/electric-bike-conversion-kits/
(says it goes 30 mph and they have another one that goes a little less speed)

Yesterday, after weeks of reading and thinking I have finally ordered a sensorless controller from Lyen and a HS3540 from Crystalyte Europe.

Now all I have to do is sort out which batteries to use and what voltage to run.
And then the small task of fitting it all together!

Handling issues:
I contacted KMX regarding the toe in settings and they kindly emailed me a copy of the owners manual. They are very helpful.
According to the manual the previous owner had set the rear boom too far in giving too a short wheelbase.


With the rear boom set correctly the chain was too short so I had to extend it.


After reading all the threads here on torque arms I took a 10mm thick plate and made this. The slot fits tightly over the shaft and the reaction pushes the flat plate up onto the bottom of the chain stay. The zip tie is there to stop it rattling, whilst I try to find a neater way to fit the torque arm.
I do not have the one on the sprocket side fitted yet as I am making one to fit around the derailleur.


The battery box is an aluminium box I was given and is attached to a subframe I made that fits onto the rear of the seat frame.
The batteries are easily accessible via the hatch on the side of the box.
I have four 6s 5000mAh Lipo batteries set up to give me 44.4V and 10Ah, which is enough to get to and from work.
I will paint this side cover black soon.
The Turnigy Watt meter is my temporary "fuel gauge" until I can afford a cycle analyst.
The grey box contains the 12 FET sensorless speed controller by Lyen and is held on by velcro at the moment!
I use a thumb throttle because the gears are controlled with grip shifters.






I use four of these as my battery monitoring system, one in each battery pack. They monitor each cell and give a very loud alarm if any cell goes below the preset voltage.


Work still to be done:
Bigger better battery box, I want to have more range (currently about 24 miles without peddling) and so need more space for more batteries.
Lights the nights will drawing in soon and I start cycling to work at 05:15 and get back home at 18:35.
Mudguards to protect me from all the horse droppings on the cycle track.

Edit: updated links to photos.

That is one nice looking trike!

The torque arm is a very neat design also, but isn't it the wrong way round? ie the "arm" should be on top of the frame?

jonathanm said:

That is one nice looking trike!

Click to expand...

Thanks.

jonathanm said:

The torque arm is a very neat design also, but isn't it the wrong way round? ie the "arm" should be on top of the frame?

Click to expand...

I hope not!
Looking at the left of the trike at the torque arm, the wheel is going anti-clock wise.
Which means the motor shaft is trying to rotate clock wise and therefore the torque arm is pushing up against the bottom of the chain stay.

Hopefully if I am wrong someone will correct me before there is any damage.

Torque arm should be right. As you accelerate the "front" of the motor tries to rise up forcing the arm against the frame. Only thing I would be worried about is putting the controller in a box with no airflow/cooling. Sure looks like a nice clean build though.. Gotta get me a tadpole

Yes, sorry - brain fart.

torker said:

Torque arm should be right. As you accelerate the "front" of the motor tries to rise up forcing the arm against the frame. Only thing I would be worried about is putting the controller in a box with no airflow/cooling. Sure looks like a nice clean build though.. Gotta get me a tadpole

Click to expand...

You cannot see them in the pictures but there are two 25mm holes in the bottom of the box and two facing forwards to allow air in and out but hopefully no spray from the rear wheel.

I have a video up on YouTube at the moment of my trike in action but do not know how to embed it here.

So here is a link.

http://youtu.be/I2LqdJpPuro

[youtube]I2LqdJpPuro[/youtube]

Here you go, nice conversion!
[youtube]I2LqdJpPuro[/youtube]

bigmoose said:

Here you go, nice conversion!

Click to expand...

Thanks for doing that for me Moose!
I see how you did it so hopefully I will do it right next time.

Update:

I rearranged the LiPos today to give me 66.6V

WOW much faster acceleration.

And a new top speed of 42.6mph!

Planky said:

Update:

I rearranged the LiPos today to give me 66.6V

WOW much faster acceleration.

And a new top speed of 42.6mph!

Click to expand...

I love higher voltage! Nice Build Planky!

Tommy L sends...