Back in the Saddle, 'Bent Mid-drive project!!

LI-ghtcycle

10 MW
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
3,818
Location
Oregon City Oregon
Hello all, I have been absent for many months now, but my health is on the up!

First off I want to again thanks Rassy for getting me into 'Bent bikes, they are amazingly pain free low impact capable machines!

When he was in the neighborhood he brought by his Vision R-40 Long Wheel Base bike to see if I had a place for it as he thought it might be something I would be interested in having!

At the time I was still too weak to do any real riding so it sat in the garage after nothing more than a 10-foot test ride on the drive way.

Fast forward to 5 days ago, and now I had a chance to ride it, and WOW!! WOW!! WOW!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

If not for his generous gift, I might not ever have been introduced to these heavenly machines!

Here's a pick of my new ride!

39108784013_large.jpg


Once you "re-learn" to ride a bike, it's really not bad, it was hard to get used to leaning back at first, but now that I have the "kick off and pedal one side" enough to get going, it's pretty easy to get going. Hills from a dead stop were challenging at first, but now as long as I get the gears low enough previously to the stop, and start sort of perpendicular to the hill to get a running start, turning up the hill is no problem at all. 8)

After 3+ Months with no riding, I was able to go down then back up the 7 - 8% grade of hill that is 2+ miles long with out being winded or even breaking a sweat!! :D :D :D

I'm very amazed at how little effort it took to climb this hill using a recumbent! Therefore, given the fact that it has a 26" rear wheel, it's become my new favorite for a commuting/touring bike! :twisted:

Well, now down to the main subject.

Here is a picture of another R-40 in the Short Wheel Base mode (it has a different boom attachment allowing for the removal of the linkage and current boom that the front forks are attached to) which is how I plan on trying out mine since the only thing I don't like is the uneasy feeling I get not having bars in front of me to hold onto not to mention not being able to attach all my favorite gizmos on the handle bars. This bike will be great for using my mid-drive and I believe I have a great place to locate it on the bike that will allow for easy drive chanin adjustment.

39108784014_large.jpg


I plan on taking the swing arm from one of the junk frames I have laying around and cutting the tubing about 6-8 inches from the rear drop outs to form two " V's " of tubing that I can then attach to the underside of the seat using nothing more than the second mounting hole for the seat and another hole I will drill through the main frame beam to hang the motor from, and where as the front mount will be hinged, and gravity will naturally pull it down and forward allowing to easily tension the drive chain, and a second set of hinged mounts (much like the hinged seat stays of the recumbent) to allow the top slotted mounts closest to the rear to change angle as needed when getting correct tension on the drive chain.

I might have to add an additional chain guide to keep the pedal chain from hitting the motor & mounts, but other than that, I think it will be pretty straight-forward.

P.S. I would be replacing the current rear wheel with my nuvinci and putting a cushy balloon tire on the front as well, and if I don't like the SWB mode, I can still keep LWB and have the up-right bars to get an extra cushy ride, as it is now, this bike soaks up the bumps like nothing I have ever experienced! :D

Oh ya, I'm 'bent believer now!! :p

P.P.S

Here is a pic of a R-40 with the Over Seat Steering set-up I will be using:

39108784015_large.jpg
 
StudEbiker said:
Looking forward to this one. What motor are you planning to use?

Same Amped Bikes 9 X 7 DD Hub motor (9C) I had jury rigged on my Tidal Force (the one with the wind screen and the way high centered hub motor on the rear rack with dual RH drive, motor and pedal chains both stacked on the right using the nuvinci as transmission for both).

If I could find a 6" diameter DD hub motor that would give similar performance, I might tuck it in behind the seat, ideally with as much copper, just smaller diameter, but deeper or over-square.

I might have to try some of the smaller X-light DD hubs and see if they are efficient enough, my understanding is they aren't as efficient, but the difference might be small enough to live with.

I'm wanting to avoid geared motors just because it's more potential parts to replace and I am looking for ultimate durability. :)
 
Sounds like a plan, but the idea of drilling a hole in the main frame bothers me a bit. That chromo tubing is really thin and will crush very easily. The seat stays actually have a "tube" built into them so no pressure is being applied to the main frame tube. You might want to consider a precise fitting bracket like recumpence makes. I think he sells a 2" diameter clamp just for frames like that. Would need to check the diameter first to be sure.

At any rate I'm looking forward to watching your build. Are you going to remove the entire front and rear deraileur system and just use the cvt? Also good to see you feeling better. :D

EDIT: One nice thing about over seat bars is that its a lot easier to push or move the bike around. Bending over to those low bars is a real PITA. Also might make it a little easier to get on and off of the bike.
 
I was thinking about what I said in my previous post, and see another, more basic way to attach the rear motor supports. Make a solid clamp for each side on the smaller chain stays. Not only are they out at the width you need, there will be no "twisting" issue. If necessary, you could then put a cross brace between the left and right motor supports between the rear wheel and the motor itself. And your idea about being adjustable could still be used, maybe by being able to move the initial clamps forward a bit after the chain is attached. Remember that they make half links that allow you to make a smaller chain length adjustment instead of just adding or removing a full link. The BMX guys use these on their single speeds that have little or no chain adjustment available.
 
Rassy said:
Sounds like a plan, but the idea of drilling a hole in the main frame bothers me a bit. That chromo tubing is really thin and will crush very easily. The seat stays actually have a "tube" built into them so no pressure is being applied to the main frame tube. You might want to consider a precise fitting bracket like recumpence makes. I think he sells a 2" diameter clamp just for frames like that. Would need to check the diameter first to be sure.

At any rate I'm looking forward to watching your build. Are you going to remove the entire front and rear deraileur system and just use the cvt? Also good to see you feeling better. :D

Oh good point on the reinforced tube, I will see what Matt's clamps look like, I like that idea! I wonder too if I could get a another tube reinforcement like there is for the seat mounts installed.

On another point, I have seen one picture of a recumbent with a really fancy looking center stand that attached to the sides of the chain stays, but I can't find that picture again or anything like it.

The only thing I have seen that should work for this bike is a bracket sold by Hostel Shoppe :http://www.hostelshoppe.com/cgi-bin/readitem.pl?Accessory=1005338632

la_04vol_ksgizmo.jpg


If I can figure out a way to make it work however, I'd much rather find a way to attach this center stand from crow cycle: http://www.crowcycleco.com/bicycle-...-kickstand-screw-adjust-black-extra-tall.html

570-005_3.jpg


And attach it just where the chain stays meet the main tube, maybe there is some kind of "sandwich" kind of bracket out there that would do just that or that I can make.
 
Rassy said:
I was thinking about what I said in my previous post, and see another, more basic way to attach the rear motor supports. Make a solid clamp for each side on the smaller chain stays. Not only are they out at the width you need, there will be no "twisting" issue. If necessary, you could then put a cross brace between the left and right motor supports between the rear wheel and the motor itself. And your idea about being adjustable could still be used, maybe by being able to move the initial clamps forward a bit after the chain is attached. Remember that they make half links that allow you to make a smaller chain length adjustment instead of just adding or removing a full link. The BMX guys use these on their single speeds that have little or no chain adjustment available.


Heya thanks for that great idea! It's something I could also incorporate into the bracket I make to hold the center stand, and you're exactly right, it would most definitely make the mount for the motor stronger! :D

And yes, one of the main advantages of OSS bars is being able to steer the bike when you have to push it for sure!

What do you think of this OSS design I found on Ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180693085395&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It makes use of the USS handlebars and provides a pretty sturdy looking set-up (I really don't like the idea of the flips, I understand it would make it easier to get on and off the bike, but I don't need that and I really want the bars to be solid)

I'm heading to the LBS soon to see if he can get me something similar, if not, I'm pretty sure that is the OSS set-up I want to buy.
 
Looks like you are really getting into it!

My brother had OSS on his SWB Burley where the bars flipped up out of the way. It worked good and he liked it. I agree with you though, I like it all nice and solid.

A friend had a dual leg kickstand on his Gold Rush LWB recumbent. Worked really nice, and also worked good when he had his BOB trailer attached. It actually held his front wheel off the ground.

Good luck finding all the bits and pieces. :D
 
Welcome back, and glad you're feeling better.

Now you're talking....recumbent for the cross country ride you were working toward before.
 
Yeah, I'm really excited, I might consider making some kind of "break away" mast since it just occurred to me riding back from errands that if I crash, the family jewels would be smashed against the mast!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Maybe that's not that big of a concern, for now I will just leave it LWB and get my mast & bars attached and see how I like it, eventually I will switch out the current steering linkage but for now I will just attach the 1" adapter and build my own mast from the seat tube of a junk frame or steering tube of a old push scooter, which ever works best.

I felt so silly when I showed that Ebay mast for $75 and Al (the LBS owner) told me that he stocks everything other than the 18" tube that everything attaches to to make the mast, and I have the rest of the pieces lying around the garage! :mrgreen:
 
OK, so...you like Ebikes...you now own a recumbent...and now you're thinking about a mid-drive instead of a simple hub-motor in the wheel...next you'll be posting that your making a semi-rigid tailsock and nosecone (sigh...)

AND...you'll probably be making them, instead of just buying. Just for the general groups info, from your perspective...where did big-oil and the global corporate mass media go wrong?
 
John in CR said:
Welcome back, and glad you're feeling better.

Now you're talking....recumbent for the cross country ride you were working toward before.

Thanks John, I'm very glad that Rassy was so kind as to give me this wonderful bent, I don't think I would have ever tried one otherwise, and it really is true how comfortable they are, I once again took the monster hill today and although I didn't climb it fast, it really wasn't a huge effort it would have been on an up-right bike! (lotta the 'Bent guys call traditional bikes "wedgies" :p :lol: :lol: )

The other really exciting thing is this particular bent is one of the first mentioned by Adventure Cycling (the folks famous for cross country bike maps) as a recommended bent for touring! 8)
 
spinningmagnets said:
OK, so...you like Ebikes...you now own a recumbent...and now you're thinking about a mid-drive instead of a simple hub-motor in the wheel...next you'll be posting that your making a semi-rigid tailsock and nosecone (sigh...)

AND...you'll probably be making them, instead of just buying. Just for the general groups info, from your perspective...where did big-oil and the global corporate mass media go wrong?


That's just it! Mass marketing and Media are the WHOLE reason you and I have been riding "wedgies" for the majority of our lives, we never thought to try a 'bent because we hardly ever even saw one.

The whole problem IMHO is that the bicycle industry is at the mercy of the "cool bikers" who race, and therefore the bikes sold are a result of following this "joe racer" style bicycle (this is also the reason that most bicycles are sold with a very limited gear range, the same gear range that is "legal" for racing, not ideal for climbing hills.) and we haven't as a society really been exposed to recumbent bicycles other than "that WEIRD hippy dude with the ZZ Top beard rides" :p :roll: :wink:

The main reason for this I believe also is that up-right or diamond frame (DF) bicycles are cheaper and simpler to make. It takes a bit more engineering to build the average bent than DF bike. However, other than the frame and the seat, there really isn't much that isn't common or even identical to what is used on a traditional bike. Other than some specialized parts for the steering "mast" (the extra tall tube that allows you to have bars up above your knees for Over Seat Steering (OSS), twice as long chain, and tandem length brake/shifting cables, I can use all standard bicycle parts.

The other thing I have noticed and have seen said by others on the "Bent Rider" forums, is the idea that your less noticeable and therefore less safe on a bent. This is largely untrue except for the lower than average recumbents, and from what I have seen, many of the trikes (particularly tadpole, two wheels up front) are on the low or very low side to allow for stability high cornering speeds. however there are very high trikes too, particularly delta (two wheels in back) style, and we have all seen the ones that are just an up-right bike with two wheels in the back.

What I have experienced so far is that people give me much more room mainly because they are leery of this weird looking bike and aren't sure what to make of it. I do also use a flag with it because I believe in visibility, but another consideration especially with the lower trikes is your ability to not only be seen, but to see around cars in traffic, that is a bigger concern for me, and in my book, even more important to be able to see trouble up ahead is a big plus.

Another thing is on a typical bike because of the position, when your really tired and slugging it out, your tend to look down, not so on a bent, your always looking forward.

And yes, I will be building my own aero panniers and tail box, however I believe I will just get another Zzipper or similar brand front windscreen (not sure if Zzipper makes one designed for this bike) and most exciting about putting a windscreen on a bent is that it WILL cover the least aero part of the bike, the churning pedals! 8)
 
@LIghtcycle: I don't know if you've considered this, but you could keep the LWB version, and remote steering, simply installing the handlebars you want to use into the steerer tube cut off an old fork, installed into the rear headtube, but leaving the actual fork and wheel on the front headtube. Simply setup the steering pivots/tierods/etc. to run from attachment points on the bottom of the cut-off steerer tube.

I originally intended to do that for ReCycle but decided to go with a shorter bike because it was already very long, and low, and I had also decided I wanted the USS. Otherwise I could tell you exactly how to do this, from experience. Instead, I can only suggest the possibility. :)
 
amberwolf said:
@LIghtcycle: I don't know if you've considered this, but you could keep the LWB version, and remote steering, simply installing the handlebars you want to use into the steerer tube cut off an old fork, installed into the rear headtube, but leaving the actual fork and wheel on the front headtube. Simply setup the steering pivots/tierods/etc. to run from attachment points on the bottom of the cut-off steerer tube.

I originally intended to do that for ReCycle but decided to go with a shorter bike because it was already very long, and low, and I had also decided I wanted the USS. Otherwise I could tell you exactly how to do this, from experience. Instead, I can only suggest the possibility. :)

Thanks for the idea! I believe it is already pretty much "plug and play" as far as leaving it LWB and still using OSS, the Ebay kit simply adds a long aluminum section between the 1" fork tube (if in SWB mode) or the tube and tie-rod mount minus the fork allowing OSS AND the LWB, in fact I just built my own version that converts from 1" (with a quill adapter) to 1 1/8 so I can piece it together with junk I have laying around, and the doner Magna frame I used is Ideal!

Here is a link to the build thus far on bent rider:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=74308

It's still pretty rough here, I will grind down the rest of the remains of cut tubing and then hit everything with a proper metal primer and black paint to make it nice, but first I want to test that it fits and feels solid first.

39108784020_large.jpg


I might eventually try it in SWB mode just for kicks, but since LWB mode soaks up all the bumps so amazingly, I can't imagine not keeping it at this point. :D
 
Rassy said:
It's going to be wet tonight and tomorrow and you still have those narrow high pressure slicks on the bike. I found out right after I got the bike that those tires don't work very good on wet roads. :D

Yeah, I can imagine! I have a 20 x 2.35 Schwalbe Big Apple for the front on order, and I should have my A2Z disc brake adapter at about the same time so when I add the Nuvinci I should also have Big Apples front and rear.

I also bought a full set of tandem cables in case I ended up needing any when converting to OSS, and I am hoping I might be able to just use my trekking bars, but I imagine the original bars will be best suited, and then I can put on the GPS so I know how fast I pedal it.

There was a pretty strong head/cross wind today coming home from the LBS and it didn't really seem to effect me much at all! I'm wishing I had discovered how fun a recumbent could be sooner! :wink:
 
I also used a seat tube, upside down like that, for CrazyBike2's steering stem extension. :) It's the top of the tube cut off of the Schwinn frame that makes up the rear half of CB2 itself, since I didn't exactly need it anymore. I just clamped it's seatpost clamp over the threaded part of the steerer tube on the middle headset.

I would guess it is an easy and probably common way to do this, as so far most of the things I thought I was originating myself on CB2 (and ReCycle before it) have been things I have later seen on much older bike designs of others. Ah, well, there's probably nothing original left to do in hacking bikes together, at this point. :lol:
 
amberwolf said:
I also used a seat tube, upside down like that, for CrazyBike2's steering stem extension. :) It's the top of the tube cut off of the Schwinn frame that makes up the rear half of CB2 itself, since I didn't exactly need it anymore. I just clamped it's seatpost clamp over the threaded part of the steerer tube on the middle headset.

I would guess it is an easy and probably common way to do this, as so far most of the things I thought I was originating myself on CB2 (and ReCycle before it) have been things I have later seen on much older bike designs of others. Ah, well, there's probably nothing original left to do in hacking bikes together, at this point. :lol:

Yeah, great minds think alike eh? :wink:

I think that it will work better if I can seem to shake the idea that somehow greasing the quill like I remember doing as a child is a good idea! At first I was wondering why it was not only moving too easy, but when I checked the 1" quill extension, it was finger tight! :roll:

I promptly de-greased everything with a rag and acetone, so now it's staying pretty good at least in the short trips around the driveway. :eek:

I know a quill will never be as solid as a thread-less stem attached to a fork tube, but at least now it doesn't move unless the bike falls or something like that.

I'll get some pics first thing tomorrow of the pre-painted product, I ran into a few more snags getting the Nuvinci on the R-40, the drop-outs had to be spread about 1/5" and I had to rob a shouldered bolt from an old derailleur since I discovered the original had stripped, but the best part is I didn't have to get new cable housings (I should have with the new tandem cables, doh!) since the housings on the Tidalforce are nice and long, and practically new, they worked fine. 8)

Going to have to get more pipe glue to finish dad's battery mounts, and paint to prime the bare metal on the mast where I sanded off the welds, but other than that and adding all my favorite bar gizmos, it's a working mod! :D
 
LI-ghtcycle said:
I think that it will work better if I can seem to shake the idea that somehow greasing the quill like I remember doing as a child is a good idea! At first I was wondering why it was not only moving too easy, but when I checked the 1" quill extension, it was finger tight! :roll:

I promptly de-greased everything with a rag and acetone, so now it's staying pretty good at least in the short trips around the driveway. :eek:
Since I figured I would never want to take mine apart, I left it all rusty and stuff inside, and didnt' bother drying it out as I rinsed dirt off the frame as I worked on it, often outside, and also welding on things and cooling them with lots of water afterward. I am guessing it's pretty solidly rusted together at this point, even if I were to unbolt the seatpost clamping bolt on the now-bottom-end of the seattube/extension post from the threaded end of the ex-steerer tube off the fork.

As for the quill that's actually in the fork steerer tube up front, I didn't grease it (I usually don't), but I did have to tighten it a LOT more than I would have, and repeat the tightening several times over the first few rides, as I guess the remote steering must be applying more torque to it than direct handlebar-stem would, as it is not 1:1 steering on my setup. Can't recall now which end is higher and which lower, though.

Even so, I still have had occasional problems with it not being quite as tight as it should be, and the steerer tube slipping around the stem/quill. Usually this is when I am manhandling the bike over some curb, without me on it, and the front wheel ends up partly sideways and dragging against the curb, doorsill, etc, causing it to try to torque the whole wheel/fork more sideways, vs the handlebars/quill/stem/steering tie-rod. It also happened once when manhandling it over a sand hill trying to get onto the canal path from a cul-de-sac.
 
Ok, I'm going to test out a different motor that originally planned, I already know that the 9 x 7 works fine, I also know that it is a big motor to put in any mid-drive, and it was only used to prove to myself that it would work the way I expected. The other problem has been how to have a kickstand AND a hub motor in about the same space, and that is just proving to be too much of a headache.

I am currently looking into a small Xlyte 406/4011 as the possible candidate, as having a high and low set of "gearing" from the motor could be even better as I will generally want a lower setting for climbing hills, and a nominal setting for everything else as I really don't need speed as much as efficient gearing from the Nuvinci hub/motor combination, and I really prefer to have a rear motor that will accept track cogs with ease.

Here is a picture of the place I would like to put a more practically sized hub motor, behind the seat:

39108784030_large.jpg


(coincidentally this is also the same or similar fairing I plan to install once I have the motor and such up- and running, but for now, $$$ goes to the motor first. :wink: )

The other nice benefit to having the motor in this area is it allows for the second RH drive chain to take up little more space than the pedal drive side chain, effectively sharing that general space. Only draw back is it will certainly not be getting as much cooling behind the seat, but if done correctly, I think it should be fine, if more cooling is needed I can add a scoop to help push air up around the motor and add some external heat-sinks to the outside cover.
 
Well, after much looking, calculating and considering, I went with this motor:

(The BLT-650, the motor in the middle)

http://www.goldenmotor.com/

BLDC%20Motors%20for%20Light%20Weight%20Trikes.jpg


Here is a link to the performance curve too:

http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/BLT-650W Performance Curve.jpg

The motor looks to be most efficient at 500W which is where I will be using it most of the time, so on paper, it looks ideal.

The KV's are higher than my hub motor, but this should also mean greater efficiency, so getting Staton Inc. to make a larger sprocket for the Nuvinci shouldn't be too big of a deal or terribly expensive.

This motor appears to have it all, except a track record with another ES member. :roll: :wink:

I have learned that it has a 9T sprocket which is not ideal for a happy or quiet chain, but paired with my 27T driven sprocket on the Nuvinci, it will have me very close to an ideal gear ratio/range.

I don't yet know if it will be a sprocket for single speed or multi-speed chain, the answer I got from GM was "typical trike chain" so I would guess multi-speed chain, so I will have to modify the sprocket a bit to allow for stronger single speed chain, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue, I will replace the sprocket with at least a 11T or even 13T to keep noise down and longer chain life.

Using my gear calculator, this would mean that I would want ideally a 13T at the motor and 44T at the Nuvinci, all very doable. 8)
 
Sounds like an interesting motor choice. Will be great to see how it works out.

I probably missed it some place, but knowing you want to use regen, does that mean there is no free wheel built into the Nuvinci like there is in the Nexus?

EDIT:
If you look around you can still get the Nuvinci 171B (350) and it's much more user friendly as a x-mission for an E-Bike given you can choose direct drive VS the newer less beefy but lighter 360 that has an internal freewheel (which is also another potential point of failure IMO) that won't allow you to use regen braking.

Thanks, you just answered in another thread.
 
Rassy said:
Sounds like an interesting motor choice. Will be great to see how it works out.

I probably missed it some place, but knowing you want to use regen, does that mean there is no free wheel built into the Nuvinci like there is in the Nexus?

You are correct, the new NuVinci 360 has an internal freewheel, however, the older second generation NuVinci N171B 350 (which I am using) has a direct drive internally, and an adapter to attach a freewheel that has been "hacked" by Staton Inc. where they use the back side of this adapter to weld on a 27T sprocket effectively allowing for a direct drive connection.

3274.jpg


(Here is a link to a PDF of the standard freewheel adapter minus the added sprocket)

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/docs/sb1_drivetrain_clicks.pdf

I have not used the newer NuVinci 360, however my understanding is the main features of this model are lighter weight and putting the pulley and cabling for "shifting" inside the drop-outs protecting it more than the older models that have it on the outside of the drop-outs.

I don't have any reason to believe that the 360 is inferior or that it would take less loading, but from my research it would appear that the N171B was over-engineered and originally to be used on some type of LEV rather than just a pedal powered bicycle, but they adapted it for bicycle use as a test-bed for the operation of this internal "geared" hub.

Also, these models have been used by Staton Inc. for some time in conjunction with a Subaru Robbin Motor via it's own separate shift kit:

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/pro..._350_Pedal_shifting_kit_NO_ENGINE-1153-0.html

3722.jpg


For a bike like this:

51nFLJZwUqL._SS500_.jpg
 
Here is a pic of the bike as it is now in SWB mode:

39108784055_large.jpg


And here is a crude mock-up of how the motor & extra tall crow cycle kickstand will be attached:

39108784058_large.jpg


The motor will be sitting on top of a flat plate, with slots to allow for chain tension, and this plate will be bolted to a triangular box on the bottom allowing a flat and level place to bolt the kick stand to. Bolt holes from the top plate will be able to go through the inside of the triangle to match the angle of the plate on top.

This could also be a solid piece, but either way, I think the triangular shape will best serve my purpose.
 
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