There's a new sheriff in town (new pics on p5)

[John in CR]

My main hubbies, comparable to the new Xlytes, but with a 40mm stator and a higher Kv at 16rpm/V even blew the super Methods controller, 18 by 4110fets and beefed up everything, the 2 days after LFP left last year. It's the current limiting that kills them staring down the barrel of the low resistance windings that need almost 30mph in a 20" rim before BEMF gets strong enough to help control things.

I don't know what's wrong with Hubmonster's factory controller. I thought I could get away with doubling the current with a 200lb lighter vehicle and the controller much more exposed to the wind, but it couldn't handle it and I wasn't even riding it near max performance.

Everyone seems to have trouble once you cross the 100A barrier, and further evidence is the Chinese going to monster size motors so they don't have to cross it. Arlo1 has had the best luck pushing them well beyond that, but that's with an X5304 which is a far easier load. I have an X5304 that was running fairly conservatively, and I took the controller off of it to run on one of my main hubbies in a 20". It took off way stronger than the X5 was running, but the controller blew the first time I gave it full throttle, a result that still baffles me.

The Sevcon's Luke has for brushless are apparently up to the task, but the setup is a mountain I don't have the tools to cross.

I've had luck with my Lyen 24fet 4110 controller...realiable since Sep of last year, but I did tone the settings down to 80A after running at 110A for a little while to make sure it stayed reliable. I beefed up the traces, doubled up the 10ga phase wires, and halved the shunt resistance to double the regen current. I was planning to add to blowers to bring in fresh air and keep the insides cool as well as almost double the surface area for FET cooling, all with plans to run Hubmonster with it, but now I need to put it back on my daily rider since I'm out of controllers. Blue is down for a quick overhaul (better batts, new wiring harness and bearings, and some beautification) while we're in the meat of rainy season, but I'll keep it conservative until I get another bike going.

I thought I was done with controller problems after learning hard lessons about current limiting, partial throttle, and hills. A year of zero problems really spoiled me, but now that I'm reaching for more performance controller popping is back and it sucks.

[John in CR]

Did we lose a bunch of photos with the latest Site updates ??? I find many "File does not exist any longer" notices when I click on a download to see a photo ????????

If any of mine are missing, I have backups this time. I'll wait until they finish trying to recover the database before going to the trouble.

[Harold in CR]

Most of the ones on pg 5 are missing. Didn't go through the whole thread.

[The Mighty Volt]

Cheers John for that breakdown.

What I don't understand is this.......why do the Chinese have an 8000w rated hub....which eats controllers???

I mean....this thing has an aluminium body and weighs over 40lbs. Thats a lot of copper and magnets. Why bother...if it cannot be properly fed.

What are they using them for? High voltage, low-amperage applications....???

What does 50A feel like in one of these things???

Cheers.

[Arlo1]

My main hubbies, comparable to the new Xlytes, but with a 40mm stator and a higher Kv at 16rpm/V even blew the super Methods controller, 18 by 4110fets and beefed up everything, the 2 days after LFP left last year. It's the current limiting that kills them staring down the barrel of the low resistance windings that need almost 30mph in a 20" rim before BEMF gets strong enough to help control things.

I don't know what's wrong with Hubmonster's factory controller. I thought I could get away with doubling the current with a 200lb lighter vehicle and the controller much more exposed to the wind, but it couldn't handle it and I wasn't even riding it near max performance.

Everyone seems to have trouble once you cross the 100A barrier, and further evidence is the Chinese going to monster size motors so they don't have to cross it. Arlo1 has had the best luck pushing them well beyond that, but that's with an X5304 which is a far easier load. I have an X5304 that was running fairly conservatively, and I took the controller off of it to run on one of my main hubbies in a 20". It took off way stronger than the X5 was running, but the controller blew the first time I gave it full throttle, a result that still baffles me.

The Sevcon's Luke has for brushless are apparently up to the task, but the setup is a mountain I don't have the tools to cross.

I've had luck with my Lyen 24fet 4110 controller...realiable since Sep of last year, but I did tone the settings down to 80A after running at 110A for a little while to make sure it stayed reliable. I beefed up the traces, doubled up the 10ga phase wires, and halved the shunt resistance to double the regen current. I was planning to add to blowers to bring in fresh air and keep the insides cool as well as almost double the surface area for FET cooling, all with plans to run Hubmonster with it, but now I need to put it back on my daily rider since I'm out of controllers. Blue is down for a quick overhaul (better batts, new wiring harness and bearings, and some beautification) while we're in the meat of rainy season, but I'll keep it conservative until I get another bike going.

I thought I was done with controller problems after learning hard lessons about current limiting, partial throttle, and hills. A year of zero problems really spoiled me, but now that I'm reaching for more performance controller popping is back and it sucks.

John I have been able to run over 250 amps through my x5 during acceleration and the spike in my sig is from my X5 24fet powered bmx too! Note anything past ~200-250amps in a X5 just turns into heat and does not make it any faster infact it makes it slower because of heat! But thats an X5304 it has more inductance then the hs35 motor! Inductance is the major key to hi amps what it does is slow the time it takes for the amprage to increas this is what saves my controller.
On that note I have to double check but I think the x5 was ~260uH here is a spread sheet that shows inductance of collossus (motor A) and the X5 (motor B) And it shows how long it takes for the current (amps) to build which is a good thing in the x5 because it gives the controller time to control it with the PWM!
The X5 actualy has 20x the resistance but I put it down to the same resistance as collossus because resistance doesnt effect it as much.

[John in CR]

Beautiful info Arlo1. I haven't been following your work on inductance as closely as I should. Did you measure inductance or was it easily calculated. So it's the inductance that's been killing my controllers, since I'm sure mine are even lower than the HS motors. Have you been able to source any big cores to wind our own toroidal choke coils?

I've got enough magnetite for a few, and it's easy and fun for the kids to collect with a magnet at the beach. I was thinking epoxy+magnetite doughnuts to wrap my phase wires through could be a cool DIY low loss, low force solution. What do you think...worth a try?

[Arlo1]

Beautiful info Arlo1. I haven't been following your work on inductance as closely as I should. Did you measure inductance or was it easily calculated. So it's the inductance that's been killing my controllers, since I'm sure mine are even lower than the HS motors. Have you been able to source any big cores to wind our own toroidal choke coils?

I've got enough magnetite for a few, and it's easy and fun for the kids to collect with a magnet at the beach. I was thinking epoxy+magnetite doughnuts to wrap my phase wires through could be a cool DIY low loss, low force solution. What do you think...worth a try?

I got 2 cheep meters from ebay I just made sure they ready to 1uh or lower. I did get a set of proper inductors from another member that were 27uH each and when you put them in series with each phase they get added together. So if one phase has 8uH and you put 1 27uH inductor inseries with each phase you get 27 + 8 + 27 for 64uH per phase! That helps a lot it will retard the timeing though because it slow the current build up but also doesnt quit flowing current instantly they basicaly take as long to build amps when the phase is energised as it takes for the amps to quit flowing after the fets are sut off!

But first things first try to mesure yours.... I mesured a small collossus and its 48uh with a 75kv rating and the turnigys are probably lower with the lower turn count for higher kv. I just chaged my rewound collossus to WYE and it is now 25-26uH with only lowers the kv by 1.73 times so I get 4x the inductance and only loose 42% rpm. I am going to try to make it up with more voltage! As a rule you need ~100uH or more for a controller to be happy!

[John in CR]

Just to share what Arlo and I were discussing by PM in case anyone else has input, I think I may have an easy solution to the low inductance motor problems making it so hard on controllers. If 100uH is enough inductance then this is a piece of cake using toroidal inductors. The problem is finding one that can handle our high phase currents. My idea is to cannibalize 3 speaker drivers to get the big ferrite ring magnet out. Then heat it up past the Currie temperature of 480°C (860°F) to demagnetize it leaving a perfect large ferrite core. I found a toroidal inductor calculator online at http://lcbsystems.com/InduCalc.html, and while I'm not clear on the materials, it should take only 10 turns or less for 100uH. If that's true then the only remaining issue is whether we'd be hitting core saturation at our current levels in the hundreds of amps, which I hope isn't the case, but I can solve by robbing magnets out of larger cheapie speakers, which I have.


Questions:

Flux saturation- Will it manifest as heat, so we can easily identify it? Is it as unlikely as I think due to the large cores, the circular shape preventing leakage, and the relatively low inductance we're looking at?

Might we be able to get away with a single core by winding all 3 phases on one?

Am I correct in my understanding that there's no added controller risk by trying this approach?

Am I missing the boat wildly somehow?

Will the added inductance hurt motor performance noticeably?


A cheap and easy way to make hard to drive motors easier on controllers is the holy grail to anyone in this hobby chasing performance. I think it was Fechter who suggested coils on phases to me first nearly 3 years ago. I just never could come up with a suitable coil, and couldn't find a calculator to rea;ize how few turns are needed. Most of us have seen these coils in a smaller form, probably just as a filter in many electronics devices, in the form of a small metal ring with a wire wrapped through it a few times.

John

[Arlo1]

John you dont need 100uH on each inductor. You need <50uH each because you will have 2 in series pluss your motor which has some, and they add up when in series!

[The Mighty Volt]

John, just curious, why is there a need for 150Amps???? Are you just pushing the limits for the hell of it, or is there a need to run those suckers at those amps, or do they just draw that sort of amperage of their own accord once you apply a pertinent voltage at WOT?

[John in CR]

John, just curious, why is there a need for 150Amps???? Are you just pushing the limits for the hell of it, or is there a need to run those suckers at those amps, or do they just draw that sort of amperage of their own accord once you apply a pertinent voltage at WOT?

More acceleration of course. I'm not pushing the limits like LFP and Arlo1 do. This motor can handle it no problem. The controller can handle it and more too, as long as there's enough inductance. You'll understand better once you get your motor going. It makes you want more. After I get my cargo bike daily rider back on the road after the overhaul, then all other bikes are for fun. Fun for me is turning the throttle and getting exhilarating near silent acceleration from a vehicle I built myself and that runs on pennies. You like amusement park rides don't you? Ebikes can do that. I've only had a taste, but have the equipment to pull it off.

John

[The Mighty Volt]

John, just curious, why is there a need for 150Amps???? Are you just pushing the limits for the hell of it, or is there a need to run those suckers at those amps, or do they just draw that sort of amperage of their own accord once you apply a pertinent voltage at WOT?

More acceleration of course. I'm not pushing the limits like LFP and Arlo1 do. This motor can handle it no problem. The controller can handle it and more too, as long as there's enough inductance. You'll understand better once you get your motor going. It makes you want more. After I get my cargo bike daily rider back on the road after the overhaul, then all other bikes are for fun. Fun for me is turning the throttle and getting exhilarating near silent acceleration from a vehicle I built myself and that runs on pennies. You like amusement park rides don't you? Ebikes can do that. I've only had a taste, but have the equipment to pull it off.

John

Yeah I am pretty much down with that. I'd like to build an electric rickshaw with these Moped hubs, I might even apply for a license and collect fares, I'd say I could make some cash in the Summer doing that. The novelty of it alone would encourage people to jump in. Plus it would be far cheaper for them. Short hops, $10 a go.

[John in CR]

I don't think it's a good choice for a rickshaw unless you did it as a mid-drive, but I assume that rim is permanently attached. That motor wants more rpms, and appears to either be the same as my main motors or a knockoff. Are there raised chinese symbols in the motor cover? If the winding is the same, then you're looking at 16rpm/volt, and for planning purposes on hills or with a heavy load you want to get to and maintain close to half of no-load rpm for that voltage. For a rickshaw with hubbies, I'd recommend dual motors and slow speed wind motors, but mid-drive I believe is the way to go, since room under the rear seat is plentiful, and you can tune the gearing to suit your needs. Maybe you can get away with it as a rickshaw hubbie with the lowest profile tire you can find for that rim.

[The Mighty Volt]

I don't think it's a good choice for a rickshaw unless you did it as a mid-drive, but I assume that rim is permanently attached. That motor wants more rpms, and appears to either be the same as my main motors or a knockoff. Are there raised chinese symbols in the motor cover? If the winding is the same, then you're looking at 16rpm/volt, and for planning purposes on hills or with a heavy load you want to get to and maintain close to half of no-load rpm for that voltage. For a rickshaw with hubbies, I'd recommend dual motors and slow speed wind motors, but mid-drive I believe is the way to go, since room under the rear seat is plentiful, and you can tune the gearing to suit your needs. Maybe you can get away with it as a rickshaw hubbie with the lowest profile tire you can find for that rim.

No I don't have those raised symbols. My motor is a 48v, 1500w rated motor. I wonder what that would mean in terms of RPM/V. I have a sort of "laser-engraved" code on the side. The motor is in the shed right now so I will check it out later and post it here.

I also have a feeling that asking the people who sell these motors in China would be met with...."Hello friend. What is the problem. Your happiness is our desire" or some such polite, but generally useless, information.

My motor is very much in the lower range of these motors, but it could be a slow-wind, which is happy trundling along at low RPM. Who knows. We shall see.

[E-bike4life]

Is this the same motor you used? http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/46266 ... oters.html

[John in CR]

Is this the same motor you used? http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/46266 ... oters.html

The motor in your link is an even bigger motor than the one I have. It weighs more and appears to have a longer stator judging by the side cover extending past the rim. The side covers certainly look like they came out of the same factory though.

[The Mighty Volt]

I'm just bumping this thread for the benefit of Beavinator who requested more information on these motors.

[John in CR]

I'm just bumping this thread for the benefit of Beavinator who requested more information on these motors.

The Beave needs to learn to be a man and stand on his own 2 feet a lot more, which would include learning to use the search function. He's just lazy, impossible to please, and has money to burn. Whoever thinks the Beave should just buy a Stealth Bomber and be done with it, raise your hand.

[The Mighty Volt]

I'm just bumping this thread for the benefit of Beavinator who requested more information on these motors.

The Beave needs to learn to be a man and stand on his own 2 feet a lot more, which would include learning to use the search function. He's just lazy, impossible to please, and has money to burn. Whoever thinks the Beave should just buy a Stealth Bomber and be done with it, raise your hand.

THat said, i would never buy a stealth bomber. The question was raised earlier as to whether it is not better value to go out and buy a stealth bomber.

It probably is.

But you will not learn a single god-damned thing. Fluxes, solder, irons, copper, tab-welding, series-parallel, the importance of a clear work-space, how to cut steel arms, bolts, epoxy, wiring harnesses, charging solutions....you won't learn any of that if you buy a Stealth. Its all done for you.

What I learned about bikes by buying LiFePo4 duct-tapes and hub motors off ebay? Nothing. Not a thing. Other than that it was a mistake and not to do it again.

Building my own bikes I have learned far more and would comfortably tackle a car-build tomorrow. In fact a car build is probably easier.

[RallySTX]

It is, the parts are bigger, and there's more of them. So there's more places for you to hide a mistake. Make a boo boo on one of these and there is no way to hide it. I drove my v8 S10 for two years in WI. That thing had more mistakes than I care to mention, but it still would spank a Camaro. Mess up on a harness, or Tourqe reenforcement, and you got problems baby!
Brian L.

[The Mighty Volt]

It is, the parts are bigger, and there's more of them. So there's more places for you to hide a mistake. Make a boo boo on one of these and there is no way to hide it. I drove my v8 S10 for two years in WI. That thing had more mistakes than I care to mention, but it still would spank a Camaro. Mess up on a harness, or Tourqe reenforcement, and you got problems baby!
Brian L.

Well, what I meant was that the car is already designed to take torque, there is no shortage of places to put batteries, there is no need to add new brakes or upgrade the suspension. Its just straight swap really, motor for engine , controller for ECU, batteries for petrol.

Regarding the hub motor, does anyone know what's the single biggest moped tyre out there? I am trying to "swell" the diameter of my motor to 20" so as to alleviate the difference between the front and the rear wheels.

[The Mighty Volt]

Look what they did to my hub during delivery man



Can it be fixed???

Thanks.

[ohzee]

That Sucks.. ;(

[RallySTX]

Sure, the folks who rolled the rim can redo it if they can get it to fit their machines now that it's assembled. The problem is that it will be weaker after being bent twice. You can try a torch and a mallet, but that might melt something.
The only real option is to get a heavy body rolling pin, and spend your extra time rolling it across the deformity, working it back to it's original shape, but again it will be weaker. I would see if there was some type of claims dept. That you could get help with from the shipper. Sorry to see that too. Good Luck.
Brian L.

[The Mighty Volt]

That Sucks.. ;(

Well, rough with the smooth. I can use it as a template to make a swingarm and drop-outs.

And then, when I get the cash, I will swing for the fences and get THIS