There's a new sheriff in town (new pics on p5)

[Andje]

john, is that the same motor that can be purchased through the kelly sight, ie the http://kellycontroller.com/hub-motor-60v-3kwdisc-brake-p-151.html ?
They just look identical, so i was wondering. If these are easy to put on a bike, it might be more interesting for some of the people looking at the 5404 buy right now; as you say the quality of the ebike motors is crap, although it's got to be a lot easier to put them in a rim...
Amazing bike, i will be honoured to follow in your wake like a Remora...

[MadRhino]

Nice John, the super V is taking shape and as far as we can guess by the looks, it must be a smooth ride. It is not very stealth, but I believe that it's not a concern where you live. I can't wait to see it ride, and to have some numbers, even if they are not accurate track chrono yet.

The air shock is definitely the way to go with a hub motor, the Fox Float is small but still better than any spring loaded shock to temper the bouncing of a heavy hub. When you try a bigger air can, you will feel like you're riding on a cloud. The reversed stem is weird, I guess that the extended swingarm does compensate for the lack of weight in the front. Nevertheless, the longitudinal CEG is likely to rob some adherence off the front wheel in slippery conditions or hard cornering. I think that you should consider using a softer gum and lower air pressure in the front, to make the front wheel sticky.

Fit some brakes on this monster and give it some aggressive ride, we all want to see a vid of you beating it.

[John in CR]

DoctorBass,
Good news for you. I have to concede the 60ft time with me on the bike, because I'm only getting to 33-35 mph at 2.5sec, and by my calcs you were 42-43mph at 60ft. Maybe I can tune the controller higher, but that remains to be seen. I'll own you by the 8th though.

Andje,
Identical covers definitely, but there are hundreds if not thousands of motor factories that purchase components from the far fewer manufacturers of the metal parts and wind the copper, which is the highly labor intensive part, and assemble motors. My motor requires dropouts at 190mm, and definitely not something you can just slap on a bike. The X540x is more comparable my other scooter hubbies, but mine have big drum brakes that put the dropouts at 210mm without significant mods. Those wide version X5's will also come with bike ready covers, which is a complication for scooter hubbies.

MadRhino,
I ride very much differently than you, so the weight distribution on the bars, pedals, and saddle will be way different. I'm still not happy with my hand position, and have to do something different at the stem, but weight distribution is right where I want. Keep in mind I want to retain a hand/arm position where I can push back to counter brake dive, which I really hate. I definitely need to experiment with one of the no-dive type of front suspensions. Due to my overall greater load I have plenty of weight on the front for cornering, but the fat Kenda has side walls that are way too soft for hard cornering. I don't ride that way anyway, and blast in pretty straight lines, so a muscle bike instead of a sports bike works for me.

I have no experience with decent bike shocks. Should I go ahead and order replacement rubber parts now...seals, rings, whatever? That Fox Float is like a cloud for me, and my greater mass must counter the effects of all that unsprung weight on the small bumps I've been hitting. The rear seems to take them better than the front, though I avoid big stuff.

[MadRhino]

I have no experience with decent bike shocks. Should I go ahead and order replacement rubber parts now...seals, rings, whatever? That Fox Float is like a cloud for me, and my greater mass must counter the effects of all that unsprung weight on the small bumps I've been hitting. The rear seems to take them better than the front, though I avoid big stuff.

The Float is more than decent. If it works for your riding style, don't search any further. It is easy to service and the rebuild kits are not expansive. Just make sure it is empty of air when you open it, and no need to open it until it start losing air.

[amberwolf]

D Keep in mind I want to retain a hand/arm position where I can push back to counter brake dive, which I really hate. I definitely need to experiment with one of the no-dive type of front suspensions.

I wonder...on a fork with a lockout, would it be possible to put a servo activated by the brake lever on there to engage the lockout, and disengage once the lever is released? (or by a separate button on the lever, in case there is a situation like braking during a driveway entrance or speed bump where you don't want the suspension locked out)

Or for pneumatic systems without a lockout, a tank/compresssor and valve system that is activated the same way, so it pressurizes the system to it's max, stiffening it greatly, during braking, and lowering it back to some preset value afterward? (the compressor would kick on every so often to keep the tank above the pressure needed).

[John in CR]

...no need to open it until it start losing air.

With my big load and the shock pumped to 250psi, would it gradually worsen or can something go all at once? ie Order a set now?

Also, can it run on little to no air on a smooth road or is that sure to cause damage? eg When I go to make a run at the strip, lower will obviously be better, so as long as it won't damage the shock I could bring my pump along to the track and let the air out to make some runs. Then just pump it back up afterward. I guess I could just drop the pressure way down and get the same lowering result without bottoming out the shock. Recommendation?

[John in CR]

D Keep in mind I want to retain a hand/arm position where I can push back to counter brake dive, which I really hate. I definitely need to experiment with one of the no-dive type of front suspensions.

I wonder...on a fork with a lockout, would it be possible to put a servo activated by the brake lever on there to engage the lockout, and disengage once the lever is released? (or by a separate button on the lever, in case there is a situation like braking during a driveway entrance or speed bump where you don't want the suspension locked out)

Or for pneumatic systems without a lockout, a tank/compresssor and valve system that is activated the same way, so it pressurizes the system to it's max, stiffening it greatly, during braking, and lowering it back to some preset value afterward? (the compressor would kick on every so often to keep the tank above the pressure needed).

I have mine dialed up to max firmness, and it's still too soft for big ole me. You should know me by now, and no way I'm springing for some expensive forks with a lockout mechanism. I should check into some stiffer springs (I think mind have springs damped with a hydraulic cylinder.)...maybe if I'm lucky some for a motorcycle fork could work.

[amberwolf]

Well, the ones I got with a lockout (I think) came on a junk bike, but they need to be serviced before I can use the damping. Holds air, but the oil damping must have bad seals. I cant' remember for sure, but I think I tested the lockout to work ok.

So, while they'd be rarer there, you could still run across a deal like that.

Even so, I don't know that the ones I have can be made stiff enough to stop dive--I havent' used them on a bike yet.

[MadRhino]

...no need to open it until it start losing air.

With my big load and the shock pumped to 250psi, would it gradually worsen or can something go all at once? ie Order a set now?

Also, can it run on little to no air on a smooth road or is that sure to cause damage? eg When I go to make a run at the strip, lower will obviously be better, so as long as it won't damage the shock I could bring my pump along to the track and let the air out to make some runs. Then just pump it back up afterward. I guess I could just drop the pressure way down and get the same lowering result without bottoming out the shock. Recommendation?

I tune 300psi and max damping wirh a bigger can shock, and that is with a lighter motor, and rider. Yourr Float at 250psi is still under-tuned, don't worry it can take more, and is very unlikely to fail suddenly. When you have to fill it every week, it's time to buy a rebuild kit, and it's worth the extra buck to chose the upgraded kit. It can take lower pressure of course if you like, but not too low cause bottoming is the best way to a sudden failure.

The first failure sign is leaking oil, then it stops leaking after a week or two because there is little oil in it. But then, it will still perform as usual for a few month and maybe a year, before beginning to leak some air, and make noise. Mounting leverage, angle and linkage, affects the tuneability range of a shock, it can add or cut on the progressiveness of the stroke. So you can tune a shock to last or to perform, by the way it is mounted on the bike, when the bike frame has mounting options.

[John in CR]

So have I been lead astray? It was my understanding that pressure was really to adjust the ride height when loaded, with the goal to put the shock at about half travel when you're on the bike, so the wheel can move up or down for holes or bumps.

My reason for not going to 300psi was different. I got this bike used and abused, so I have no idea of the shock condition other than it seems to work fine and it holds air. Going to max pressure seems like it would lead to problems sooner, and the bike just sitting there not in use 98% of the time anyway, so why have it potentially under stress.

[Thud]

John,
Supension set up is as subjective as Art. The ideal set up has you using full travel in normal use...that means different things per application.

Once you know the variable settings & how they affect the chariteistics, then you can make fine tuning adjustments to maximise the performance.....but for a road bike not doing drops & other off roading nonsence, set a pressure that is comfortable for your normal use & get your base line. Presure up if your hauling a heavy load.

as long as you have dampening on the bike & not po-Going up & down the road your fine.

The worst thing I see happen to shock absorbers is inactivity.

(& for drag racing, I would stiffin the rear end so it doesn't colapse when the weight transfers to the rear of the bike no need to worry about wheel contact through the rip rap on a paved launch area)

[MadRhino]

.. It was my understanding that pressure was really to adjust the ride height when loaded, with the goal to put the shock at about half travel when you're on the bike, so the wheel can move up or down for holes or bumps...

Air pressure affects the overall performance of the shock, and the sag is only a starting point for tuning it. Put a zip tie on it to see how low it will plunge during your ride. The travel should be adjusted to 2/3 of the course in average usage, so it has the last third of the travel left for unusual hard bumps and drops. You leave this zip tie on it, so you always have a reference of the shock travel after your rides. If you notice that sometimes the shock compress a tad more than 3/4 on hard bumps, your setting is about right. As Thud said, you want to use the travel of the shock as much as possible, without being at risk of bottoming, according to the terrain that you ride on.

If you want a shock to operate with lower air pressure, you can install a volume limiter inside the can, they are available in various sizes. Usually, with a hub motor in the wheel the perfect setting would be close to max recommended air pressure of the shock and damping adjuster almost completely unscrewed (set to max), unless you ride on very smooth surface. As I said previously, a shock operating with very low air pressure is more likely to fail due to bottom risk. When you store the bike for any extended period, you can lower the pressure in your suspension, although I never did and this caused no problem.

Fox publish online manuals for all of their shocks, with adequate tuning procedure explained. This is important if your shock is of a model that has many adjustment options, for tuning those may be tricky. When a shock is very tuneable, with 2 air cans an 3 knobs to play with, one has to understand its functions and get familiar with the proper tuning procedure.

[John in CR]

MadRhino and Thud,
Thanks for sharing all that.

Now my biggest problem will be taking the bike out of service for mods. The main reason I didn't weld the rear brake caliper mount before this test period is that I know me, and all the great mods I want to do including beautification probably wouldn't get done for a year. With no rear brake I'm force to take it down.

[Ykick]

'got one of those Fox shocks too and found this thread by Manitu very helpful for service tips/instructions:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27149&hilit=+fox+float

[etard]

John,
I have a low budget coil shock if you want me to send it down to you. PM me if interested. I actually prefer the feel of a coil shock over air. The main advantage with air is the lightweight and easy tuneability, but a coil shock might be better on your bike with the various mounting points and might give you a little piece of mind. Although, when an air shock fails, it will usually will close all the way and you could still ride it home and even rebuild it good as new (this happened to me).

I like amberwolf's idea of the brake/ lockout. You could use this lever for mechanical disk brakes:

http://www.paulcomp.com/duplexlever.html



Attach one cable to the lockout and one to your brake, I almost want to try this on my bike!

[John in CR]

Are the lockouts on DH type forks with easy switching, so the racers can easily lock the fork for better pedaling briefly on level sections, or are the lockouts on rear shocks? It's the front I need to lock.

I do like the double pull lever, though I'd want hydro. I understand the better feel of good mechanical, but all I care about is braking power and low maintenance, so hydro all the way for me, since they adjust themselves and even the cheapies work fine. With regen providing so much of my braking force, I haven't touched my brakes since January, and I do use the brakes on almost every stop or turn. That's bringing 375lbs to a halt from traffic speeds. Before regen brake assist I was replacing pads at least every six weeks, and that was with a big rear drum (no maintenance) helping too.

The only problem now is that I have to change the front disc on my daily rider, and 2 allen wrenches snapped last time I tried to remove it....any suggestions (an AL hub)?

[FMB42]

Try heating the hub up a bit before you attempt to remove the disc allen screws ( you can heat the hub up with a hair dryer/heat gun). Just don't heat it up for too long or get it too hot...

As for the "air or spring" shock debate: I had reservations about air shocks years ago when Fox first started making them for Moto Xers (thought for sure that they'd leak and/or suck). However, I bought a used 80' Husky 390 CR w/Fox airs and they worked out quite well (this was 1984ish). Well, some 25 years later I'm still happy running air shocks (I've got a '06 Manitou on my XC that still holds air far better than I do these days).

Anyway, I'm head over heels on that build of yours.

[John in CR]

Thanks FMB,

Yeah, I'm sold on air shocks too. This tiny Fox Float is performing unbelievably. Today I was in a rush and took the washboard + pothole section of our main road leaving the house with abandon after getting hit with a couple of big rain drops maybe 10min before I knew for sure real rain was coming. With rain coming any second on the way back from the store I took the sidewalk, curb drops and all when the road I needed to go left on had too much traffic both directions and I couldn't waste even seconds. I needed video of both ways, because it was the most aggressive and fun ebike ride of my 3 year career (not most pleasurable which is reserved for low tide beach riding).

I pushed it too hard though. The F%@#ing controller crapped out turning into my street. Gotta figure out a way to get the glued-in board out, but the symptoms aren't typical with no big heat in the housing and no short in the phases, so hopefully something small. If I can get it apart I have 30 real 4110's itching to climb aboard, and the controller gets ventilation. I have a feeling this one isn't a mosfet failure though. I just hope I can repair it, or repair it locally.

Now my delemma is whether or not to steal the 24 fet controller with proven high power durability and ready to go regen off of my daily rider for the Super V. Let me get on with the other needed mods before deciding, but the answer is obvious since Blue is now uber boring to ride, so a lesser controller is ok.

Luke- HELP! I need to buy one of those super controllers from you. Can we reasonably program the controller from afar? I don't need to push the limits in performance. 400 phase amps will do the trick nicely, especially if I can ramp up current over 0.5-1 sec.

[etard]

Impact wrench, electric preferably. I got a Dewalt 18volt impact 6 months ago and that thing drives and snaps frozen bolts and nuts like nobody's biz.

Dh racers never lock anything out, the only reason would be for more efficient pedaling, and I guess the added complexity is not worth it for that tiny little section in each run. I don't believe I have ever seen a dual crown fork with lockout, but there are some sturdy all mountain and dirtjumper forks with adjustable hieght and lockout.

You should get that front scooter brake Thud linked somewhere. I think he used it for his death race bike. Another option could be 2 mechanical disk brakes on the front. My Willow Springs race bike has a dual disk mount hub, I think it's from one of the chopper bike sites.

I will pm you about the shock when I get home John.

[John in CR]

Since the Sheriff is now on vacation, it's time for a new sheriff to step in and take over. Since no normal ebike hubmotor can cut the mustard, who's is going to be? Etard with his scooter hubbie, Luke with his 110mph bike, the silent lurker like who took the 2011 Death Race...? Whoever it is don't take too much time, because I do have other controllers and 2wd on my mind, so the vacation won't be long.

[Harold in CR]

RE;Stuck bolts. Using the hair dryer might work, but, after getting things hot as possible, I would squirt some liquid wrench type release agent on and at the area where the bolt heads or washers are. You probably have corrosion, and, if you try to turn the bolt out very far, you stand a good chance of stripping the threads in the Aluminum.

After a couple times with the juice, try an electric hammer drill. It's not as aggressive as a regular impact tool. Just get the bolts to turn, then liquid then tighten a little, and repeat. This is from many years of working on Aluminum Outboard motors in Salt climate.

[Arlo1]

Yup heat is your friend if you have a steal bolt in aluminum you heat them both but the aluminum has a greater thermal expansion rate so it will losen on the bolt as it gets hotter! I have unseized 10s of thousands of bolts in aluminum (motorcycle mechanic) and heat is my best trick the second best is welding a nut to a broken bolt the weld will shrink and pull the bolt loose and the heat will help it come out as well! Third best is the outer bearing race trick when you weld all the way around inside the outter bearing race then the weld shrinks as it cools and the race just falls out! Ok enough rambling!

[mat h physics]

I agree w/ Harold, an impact wrench has a great chance of popping the head off. Have some doubt about pen lube though.
Arlo, is on the right track w/ heat.

Try my father's trick, he serviced the equipment at auto shops and service stations. Strike the head of the bolt to loosen it. Use a brass rod to help prevent deformation, esp on socket head cap screws. On a socket head cap, you can use a broken allen wrench. USE SAFETY GOGGLES, AS HAMMER AND WRENCH ARE HARDENED AND CAN SHEAR SENDING HIGH ENERGY SHRAPNEL Known more than one person to lose an eye striking a chisel w/o eye protection, and even embedded under skin from 20+ ft away.

If that fails, put the hub in the freezer to reduce the bolt temp. Using a lite torch or heat gun, heat the aluminum (I seriously doubt a hairdryer will work, not enough heat diff). A good soldier gun may even work for better control on small surface.

Should you have to resize the hole, don't drill a hardened brake rotor it will shatter the bit.

[John in CR]

Thanks guys. Hopefully heat does the trick, because these little brake disc bolts are way too small for impact wrenches, striking, and welding. Plus I don't have a freezer that will fit a 24" bike wheel.

[The Mighty Volt]

@JohnCr or LiveforPhysics.....how many watts are you guys seeing on these motors with the 20" or so wheel?? I am only seeing 2800w or so with an X5305 at 72v, how about yourselves??