IMBA's Motorized/Nonmotorized Position Paper

[Lock]

International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) Motorized/Nonmotorized Recreation Policy Statement, just released:
http://www.imba.com/sites/default/files/motorized%20position-IMBA%202010.pdf

Q: How does IMBA view electric assist and electric bicycles (e-­‐Bikes)?

A: Electric bicycles are a welcome addition to the cycling community. They allow for carrying heavy loads and offer assistance to those who could not otherwise experience much of the fun of cycling and add a de minimus amount of additional impact. However, the use of a motor whether internal combustion or electric would require changing the classification to a motorized use. IMBA would support the use of e-­Bikes anywhere that we could also support other motorized uses.

etc...

Blog posting and [C]omments here:
Electric Mountain Bikes - Coming to a Trail Near You?
http://www.imba.com/blog/mike-van-abel/electric-mountain-bikes-coming-trail-near-you

The usual double-talk. Ebikes are great! Just keep them off our trails and out of our bike lanes!

1ock

[john7700]

Sorry Lock but I have to disagree with you on this one. As an E-biker and an IMBA member I have to concur that motorized vehicles do not belong on non-motorized trails. It does not matter if the motor is E or ICE. We all know what a hot E-bike set up is capable of. This would most definitely increase erosion and greatly increase user conflicts. Can you imagine what some testosterone charged 14 Y.O. with a hot E-bike would be like on a busy Sunday morning on a popular hiking/biking trail.

I am by no means suggesting that E-bikes don't belong on the dirt and it was a main motivator for me to build my bike. However, I don't believe that E-bikes should be allowed in areas designated as non-motorized for indeed, by definition, it is a motorized vehicle. On trails where motor bikes are allowed or there is no designations then I say have a blast!

John

[dennyt]

I've noticed a cloud of double-think creeping over me as I've fallen in love with e-bikes. "E-bikes are just bikes! Even the government says so! But that 750W 20mph limit doesn't need to apply to me... now why don't I start designing a 5KW mountain bike!"

I think it is a slippery slope. We are all dreaming of mass-produced, high-power, affordable e-bikes. They will be here soon, and they will be awesome.

But they will have the same performance as small motorcycles. Mountain bike access is very sensitive, and dominated by user conflicts and erosion issues. Hikers want their peace and tranquility, and they're willing to attend countless meetings to kick out anyone who is a threat to that.

E-bikes would have minimal impact on motorized trails, so if we don't want to piss people off, that's where we should ride. We might even convert some of the MC riders, when we start passing them

[Lock]

Cross-posting from another thread here:

In April 2001 Canada amended the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations to recognize the electric power-assisted bicycle.

At the time the Canada Gazette reported:

Continuing to subject power-assisted bicycles to the safety standards for limited-speed motorcycles would, to all intents and purposes, have prevented this type of vehicle from being marketed in Canada, which would have deprived Canadians of a safe and non-polluting alternative mode of transportation.

The whole idea behind having a defined class of electric bicycle with power and speed limited and few other restrictions is to encourage their widespread adoption and use...

In my neighbourhood (Province, population 13+ million), on the roads, ebikes that fall within the legal definition are defined as bicycles and specifically excluded from the definition for "motor vehicle".

Folks may wish to apply 20th-century perspectives and myopic vision and label ebikes as "motorized vehicles", but this completely overlooks the whole point about ebikes...

There are no studies to show that ebikes are any more dangerous to the rider or to others or cause any greater damage to bike trails than other bikes.

For a more intelligent perspective, in 2005 the Victoria Transport Policy Institute published their policy paper "Managing Personal Mobility Devices (PMDs) On Nonmotorized Facilities", copy here:
http://files.meetup.com/1468133/Managing%20Personal%20Mobility%20Devices.pdf

Ebikes should have the same rights and responsibilities as pedal bikes, EVerywhere. If folks insist on inflicting their fears and ignorance on others, the only restriction that makes any sense is a speed limit.

Lock

[john7700]

First off, let me make it clear, I in no way want to make this an internet pissing match or attack you at personal level but I strongly disagree with your assumptions and circular logic. I'll try to address it point by point:

Cross-posting from another thread here:

The whole idea behind having a defined class of electric bicycle with power and speed limited and few other restrictions is to encourage their widespread adoption and use...

I can't speak for Canada but in the US the bike would have to be limited to <250W. Who is going to ride that bike in the mountains? No one.

In my neighbourhood (Province, population 13+ million), on the roads, ebikes that fall within the legal definition are defined as bicycles and specifically excluded from the definition for "motor vehicle". We are talking about trails here so the whole road issue is mute. Further, "legal definition" for these underpowered bikes is exactly that, a definition contrived by a government agency. In my state of several million, an e-bike of any sort is defined as a "motor vehicle" (moped) and must be registered.

Folks may wish to apply 20th-century perspectives and myopic vision and label ebikes as "motorized vehicles", but this completely overlooks the whole point about ebikes...Witch is to put a motor on a bicycle. You seem like an intellegent person but to put a motor on a bicycle and not call it a motor vehicale (in real life definition) is the beyond myopic, it is hallucinogenic

There are no studies to show that ebikes are any more dangerous to the rider or to others or cause any greater damage to bike trails than other bikes. Seriously, this is going to be your argument? I hope you don't try to use it in any kind of forum other than around a bunch of e-bikers. Show me one study that proves E-bikes aren't more dangerous or damaging than other bikes. I nor any other person who ever examined trail issues need no "study" to prove that a heavier more powerful machine is going to cause more trail damage. Nor do I need a study to tell me that you will have more conflict with other trail users. Many hate peddle bikes out there and a motorized bike will flip them out (no one as yet has mentioned "safety" as the issue except yourself).

For a more intelligent perspective, in 2005 the Victoria Transport Policy Institute published their policy paper "Managing Personal Mobility Devices (PMDs) On Nonmotorized Facilities", copy here:
http://files.meetup.com/1468133/Managing%20Personal%20Mobility%20Devices.pdf Sorry, can't open it. probably my computer

Ebikes should have the same rights and responsibilities as pedal bikes, EVerywhere. If folks insist on inflicting their fears and ignorance on others, the only restriction that makes any sense is a speed limit.
I am hardly fearful as I ride an E-bike nearly daily and assuming that a person who expresses a different view is ignorant only shows yours. I've been working on trails and trail advocacy for over twenty years and can assure you that I am fully aware of the entire scope of trail issues. Can you say the same?

Lock

Well, I've said my piece.
The sun is finally shining here in the North East and it's time for me to go for a ride!

John

[ebent]

I think the intent on ebikes and trails needs more definition. I would agree that with unrestricted power on a dirt trail would cause enormous damage. Either restricted power or not at all. But more important to me is paved trails. I feel that on rails to trails and other paved trails shoud be for all with reasonable regulations regarding safety. Mostly common sense. On trails that have areas that get a lot of traffic more restrictions on speed etc. Ebiking is not a blood letting sport so consideration for all others including skate boards, walkers, runners, etc. needs to be demostrated.

[Lock]

Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.
~ John F. Kennedy

"All plans imply an attempt to impose the values of the past...on the future."
- Alvin Toffler, 1969.

"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew."
-- Abraham Lincoln

Direct link to the Victoria Transport Policy Institute document:
http://www.vtpi.org/man_nmt_fac.pdf

tks
10Ck

[neptronix]

How does my bicycle, which weighs 30 pounds more than a regular bike, erode trails any more than a regular bicycle? Same argument could be used to keep fat people off bikes on the trail..

[vanilla ice]

More power will erode trails more. I don't see that as a debatable point. Maybe you can debate how MUCH more.. you could argue its an insignificant amount, but it is some amount greater than zero. Its not just the weight that matters.

It'd be nice if everybody could come up with an agreement on a trail legal spec.. 450 watts or 300 or whatever. But like you say, enforcement will be difficult.

[REdiculous]

Can you imagine what some testosterone charged 14 Y.O. with a hot E-bike would be like on a busy Sunday morning on a popular hiking/biking trail.

AFAIK, there's no state where a 14 year old would be allowed to ride an ebike, except on private property. I know my state requires you to be at least 16 years old. Also consider you're talking about a "hot" bike, not a road-legal one.

[Lock]

I can't speak for Canada but in the US the bike would have to be limited to <250W. Who is going to ride that bike in the mountains? No one.

Any link to corroborate this statement? Or was it just a typo?

The EU standard is 250W. Park systems in the UK have been adding ebike rentals to encourage folks into their parks that would not walk or pedal otherwise. The Germans appreciate their forests, hills and mountains. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland there are ebike rental schemes in place now for their hilly/mountainous areas. 250W of course.

Lock

[veloman]

This is what I don't understand:

An ebike is only an issue on such trails if it is improperly ridden.

Then:

The opposition says they will not allow ebikes.


WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS - If you can't enforce ebikers riding irresponsibly, then how are you going to enforce them from using the trail? It takes the same resources. The outcome is incredibly different. By dissallowing ebikers as a whole, you are simply doing NOTHING more than making it illegal for RESPSONSIBLE ebikers to use the trail. THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE.

[veloman]

More power will erode trails more. I don't see that as a debatable point. Maybe you can debate how MUCH more.. you could argue its an insignificant amount, but it is some amount greater than zero. Its not just the weight that matters.

It'd be nice if everybody could come up with an agreement on a trail legal spec.. 450 watts or 300 or whatever. But like you say, enforcement will be difficult.

I can output 2000watts of leg power on a pedal bike. Sure, I can't do it all the time like a high powered ebike, but my point is that a cyclist can put out high power and ride aggresively and 'erode the trail'.

[Phoebus]

Aligning ebikes with bikes will simply reduce trail access for both groups.

With bicyclists losing access to trails all over the place, the last thing anyone needs is for ebikes to be added to the mix.

Hub motors will become smaller, more efficient and powerful. Batteries will also become smaller and more powerful. Soon it will be literally impossible to differentiate between powered and unpowered bikes.

[veloman]

Aligning ebikes with bikes will simply reduce trail access for both groups.

With bicyclists losing access to trails all over the place, the last thing anyone needs is for ebikes to be added to the mix.

Hub motors will become smaller, more efficient and powerful. Batteries will also become smaller and more powerful. Soon it will be literally impossible to differentiate between powered and unpowered bikes.

You bring up a valid point. Bicyclists are losing access to trails and it's very unfortunate. I would rather not be able to ride electric on a trail than to lose both.

[liveforphysics]

E-bikes would have minimal impact on motorized trails, so if we don't want to piss people off, that's where we should ride. We might even convert some of the MC riders, when we start passing them

None of the dirtbike trails I ride could be traveled on an ebike of any power level (and I would know).

The trails that are ride-able by ebikes (which I don't ride), are single track and fireroad style trails. These are the trails we take to get to the technical stuff I enjoy riding (things a sane person doesn't recognize as a trail) have dirtbikes going 50-60mph everywhere on them.

I just can't see how adding an ebike to that mix is going to result in anything but huge danger for the ebiker, congestion and dangerous conditions for the dirtbikers, and lots more wrecks. Also, I've not yet seen an ebike that could handle the abuse of dirtbiking. We break wheels and crack frames and blow shocks and shred tires on machines with 14 inches of suspension and tires that have more weight in the rubber of the knobs alone than an entire bicycle hub/spokes/rim/tube/tire combined.

It's almost like an order of magnitude difference for most attributes between a proper dirtbike and an ebike.


If you look at pedal bicycles vs ebikes, it's no where near an order of magnitude difference, it's perhaps 2x the bike weight (and perhaps 25% more rider+bike system weight) and perhaps 2-3x the power applied to the tire of what a good cyclist can apply. They absolutely belong in the same group together, using the same trails together, etc. Ebikes do not belong on dirtbike trails struggling along making a dangerous passing hazard for the dirtbikes.

At least that's my $0.02

[Phoebus]

Agree completely, LFP, but I am afraid that mere facts regarding erosion, trail load, and human safety won't help ebikers. This is a political issue, not a technical one; many bicyclists are learning this the hard way as areas they've enjoyed for decades are shut down under weak or non existant pretenses.

For ebiking on trails, flying under the radar is the only viable solution I can see.

[MadRhino]

Are we talking about mountain trails here?

Erosion impact of any bike is not considerable, compared to a single day of heavy rain. Making trails in the mountain has a huge impact, and that is even if no one is riding them.

Then, I was riding my mountain trails at high speed long before I built an Ebike, and many are still doing it every day. In fact, I can ride faster DH with my non motorized bikes, because of weight, handling, suspension and braking efficiency. The only difference is that I can climb fast now, and I accept the loss of some DH performance for this benefit.

Some of the trails here are reserved to pedestrians, and that is the only valuable restriction IMO, for people jogging or walking their dogs and kids eren't bothered by (nor bother) us bikes and Ebikes.

[dogman]

I ride an ebike on MTB trails. Discussions I've have with other riders indicate I'm quite welcome to ride there, provided my bike is not as powerful as a motorcycle. Bear in mind, I don't ride like a 14 yr old full of pent up horny.

Have I fibbed a bit about how much power I have? Sure. I'm always runniing a "1000 watt motor". Well, designed for 1000w

Have I really needed more power than 1500 watts? No. But you do need the right motor. Not a street setup.

Do I enjoy a ride with more than 1500w? Of course.

Does my bike erode the trails more than a pedaler, when running 1500w? No.

Does my bike erode the trail when riding at 3000w? Yes. It definitely starts to throw rocks with the big controller.

Do I ride those BLM trails enough for it to matter? No. With the hot controller, I tend to ride roads more or trails I built myself in the "to be houses soon" area. Well, maybe not so soon now.

Now, you want to see trail damage. Let one single horse on it.

[Lessss]

LEGAL ebikes exist in a narrow envelope, if you are going to call them motor vehicles then frock EBIKS I want an electric motorcycle!

[John in CR]

Horses are allowed on these trails aren't they. If so, then they would cause far more trail damage and risk to others.

[mabman]

Kind of fits in to the old "if you build it they will come" category?

http://dopedbike.com/category/ebike-manufacturers/ktm/

(want one of those jersey's at 5:01)

[MadRhino]

Horses are allowed on these trails aren't they. If so, then they would cause far more trail damage and risk to others.

Horses have the same priority as pedestrians here, and I believe it is the same almost everywhere in public trails. Bikes and vehicles are a nuisance to horses, not the other way around. As a horseman I hope this is not going to change, but as a bike rider I wouldn't want any horse in my bike trails.

[dogman]

Horses on the bike trails here really ruin them. Bike traffic packs the soil, especially when the clay areas are ridden after a rare rain. After packing they ride beautiful, with very low effort. The get nicely resistant to erosion when the summer rains come too. Then one or two horses follow the trail and churn up the soil, eliminating any kind of coasting, and making anybody pedaling the trail really suffer. No problem, rain will come again in about 9 MONTHS!

Dang horses have discovered the 8 miles of trails I built near my house, in the area no longer going to be developed real soon. Churned up the trail so much, the last ride I took overheated my motor and blew the halls. So it goes.

[Fishmasterdan]

O man the environazi's are everywhere. Where is your proof the erosion caused by a bike or E bike is even an impact on anything. Elk, deer/ and now wolves have a way larger impact on trails, as a matter of fact they are good for the enviroment. Keep your environazi's opinions to facts please. A simple rain storm causes alot more erosion than a bike and leaves a place for new plants to grow. New plant growth feeds our ungualtes. If I were to make opinions on the matter of envirmental impacts I would say ebikes are good for the enviroment. They promte new plant growth, make game trails, spread seeds in the forest, keep the underbrush down thus reducing fire hazard's, reduce human hospital bills (by keeping riders heathly), incease the economy, reduce the worlds carbon foot print, and have no down side.