Motorcycle Class Cargo Bike: Power, Distance, Stealth, Grins

UPDATE - This thread started out as a battery pack building thread, but I'm converting it to a build thread to get help along the way.

The final outcome will be a high powered, stealth Yuba Mundo, powered by a Crystalyte 5404 and 18S4P (66.6v32Ah / 2.1kw-hr) of Zippy LiPo hidden in the running boards. There's lots more to figure out, but it's coming together. I'd appreciate any help along the way.

Estimated budget is about $3500 all in.

Inventory list:

• Crystalyte 5404 [shipping, ETA: February; 5304 in the meantime]
• ✓ Battery Medics (x3)
• ✓ Yuba Mundo v4
• ✓ Running boards (x2 pairs)
• ✓ Lyen 18Fet Controller
• ✓ Kiwi's Custom Yuba Mundo v4 Torque Arms
• ✓ 4mm Gold bullet connectors (x100)
• ✓ 5.5mm Gold bullet connectors (x48)
• ✓ 6mm Gold bullet connectors (with housings) (x48)
• ✓ 8mm Gold bullet connectors (x12)
• ✓ 8awg silicon wire
• ✓ 10awg silicon wire
• ✓ Zippy Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P (x12 for 18S4P, split in two packs of 18S2P)
• ✓ Methods LVC/HVC Boards (x3)
• ✓ Bulk Charger (Sorensen Variable Power Supply 80v 18A)

Original start of the thread, saved for posterity and to help others considering different battery packs and cargo bike builds...
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I'm looking to upgrade my battery pack from my 72v20Ah headways to something better. One of my 36v20Ah packs is constantly failing and even after replacing every cell and BMS it still gives me trouble. Time to move on and start again.

I have a Yuba Mundo v2 but will likely upgrade to a Mundo v4 with this battery. Along with a new Crystalyte 5404.

Ideally I'd like to place the battery in the freeloaders as sort of a thick running board. Essentially I'm looking to put a base on each sideboard, fill it with lipo, and put another board on top. That way the packs are evenly distributed, low to the ground, and super stealth. But this also means I can't be opening up the pack all the time to charge individually. I need a reliable charging scenario.

Also, I'm not in this for the speed. If I can go 35mph I'm happy. 40mph is bonus. But when I go out I'm more interested in being able to charge up any mountain road in my way, and go for as long as I can stand it. If I could go 20-30mph for 60 miles (including two 1000ft climbs and descents) I'd be very very happy.

Please help me choose from the options below (or suggest an alternative).


Pack One - 18S4P of ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C
66.6v32Ah or 2131W-hr
12 packs x $83 = $996 ($0.47/wh)
12 packs x 1256g = 15072g (33.3lbs)

Pack Two - 16S8P of Turnigy 5800mAh 8S1P 25C
59.2v46.4Ah or 2747W-hr
16 packs x $98.40 = $1574 ($0.57/wh)
16 packs x 1216g = 19456g (42.9lbs)

Pack Three - 20S5P of Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 25~50C Lipo Pack
74v25Ah or 1850W-hr
10 packs x $108 = $1080 ($0.58/wh)
10 packs x 1305g = 13050g (28.8lbs)

Pack Four - 20S2P of A123 30C LiFePO4 (40 cells)
66v40Ah or 2640W-hr
40 cells x $50 = $2000 ($0.76/wh)
40 cells x 467g = 18680g (41.2lbs)

Pack Five - 22S1P of A123 30C LiFePO4 (22 cells)
72.6v20Ah or 1452W-hr
22 cells x $50 = $1100 ($0.76wh)
22 cells x 467g = 10274g (22.7lbs)

Choice Pack - Build a config for me!
Voltage = 60-75v
Ah = >20Ah
Bonus for ease of charging, reliability, etc.


Here's my current setup:

Cyrstalyte 5304, 72v20Ah LiFePO4 Headways, Lyen 18fet controller. I have two LiFePO4 chargers, one for each pack.

I like option #1 the best by far. Combine 3 of Method's HVC/LVC boards, and you've got some investment security as well.


However, I call it 2.1kw-hr (realistically 2.2kW-hr when you use a real nominal voltage).

I'd go with choice 1, but.... on those really long rides I'd wire up the bike with a 48v 30-40 amp controller and run 12s. For the really long day, you'd be holding the throttle part way all day. Tiring by mile 60 for sure! So 12 s for the long slower rides and hold the throttle full on, mabye with the rubber grip jammed in to hold it there all day.

Alternately, 6s packs, but of a different size. Depends on prices, avaliability, etc.

Why not the A123's? Pricy for a pack that size for one. And you did non mention anything about needing to charge at work, and sound like "not a noob". Lipo doesn't last as long, but each pack is quickly and easliy discarded and replaced when you do have one misbehaving.

liveforphysics said:

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Click to expand...

Thanks. How would 3 of Methods boards work if I have to split the pack in two?

Also, can you recommend a shopping list to help me charge that many packs without totally disassembling the hidden running board cases? I'll need everything since I'm coming from LiFePO4. I was thinking about Alan's charging boards. But I'm up for ideas.

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dogman said:

<null>

Click to expand...

Thanks dogman.

Charging at work isn't an issue. My commute is 1.5 miles. I just go extra for fun.

Any other recommendations / shopping list items I should consider?

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Man thats alot of batts. The wet dream of battery packs. You have your work cut out for you. Make sure you post alot of pics.

Also, why not pack two? Is it the added weight? Or the voltage that's the problem? Or the complexity of the 10S pack? Or nano-tech?

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Icecube, that's why I'm asking these questions up front. I'd like this to be as smooth as possible. As I recall you're quite the master at charging packs like this as well. Please help me do it right the first time!

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The first pack offers an easier build because of the larger AH packs. Less wiring overall. Its a well balanced voltage. Nice speed and torque. Although i would like a 20s or higher on the 5304 maybe.

I dont like the voltage of pack 2. Weight is a downfall too. But you will prob be more efficent at a lower voltage at tops speed with this pack.

A123 is heavy but it will stand the test of time. Cost is a negative.

The 3rd pack you dont need that much C rate. You could get 15C packs and be fine because your lack of discharge current will be made up due to the massive AH config.

20S could easily charge and balance on a hyperion. You would have two pack halves which you could put in parallel.

All packs offer a bit of charging difficulty especially parallel charging just to the AH involved. Really large amp hour packs are hard to balance at first but once they are broken in they behave nicely it just takes time.

Great. So Pack One it is.

Pack One - 18S4P of ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C
66.6v32Ah or 2131W-hr
12 packs x $83 = $996 ($0.47/wh)
12 packs x 1256g = 15072g (33.3lbs)

The configuration will be two packs of 18S2P wired in parallel, or 6 packs per side of the bike, hidden in the runningboards/freeloaders.


My follow up questions:
1) Which charger(s) are necessary to buy?
-- Ice mentioned Hyperion. Is there a particular model I should get? How many will I need?
2) What other accessories are necessary to purchase to make charging efficient?
-- as in not taking each pack out individually from their running board deck home, and ideally charging them 6 packs at a time (since there are 6 packs (18S2P) per side)?
3) What other accessories are necessary to keep them all safe?
-- Luke mentioned Method's LVC. Is that all?
4) What else am I missing?
-- I have hundreds of connectors, andersons, gold bullets, etc. I have plenty of wire. Anything I'm overlooking?

I'd like to get my order in soon so I can get my 5404, batteries and accessories around the same time.

Thanks so much for your help.

What I don't understand Ryan, is how you get 2841W-hr for 66.6 32Ah.

It's 2131W-hr

Doh! Editing...

Make a pair of 18s versions of icecubes paralell/series harnesses. At least one cellog 8 for checking packs. 6 if you want to use them for monitoring cell level, on the road. (overkill imo) one 6s Jst wire extension per pack for making the cell level paralell connections.

At least one good power supply and charger of matching wattage. Maybe two, depends on how fast you want to charge. Minimum would be a 350 w meanwell and a 2-300w charger. Hyperions are good, but not mandatory. Spares are good, if anything fries. Spares could be cheap 50w stuff to use just temporarily.

I think if your pack is adequate size, and boy yours sure is, you can just practice shallower dod and monitor mostly with a CA. But I'm sure the lvc boards ar the thing to do for any marathon rides where you ride till they are 100% discharged.

I like it keep it simple stupid, but sometimes that requires not being stupid. So for that reason the lvc boards can be worth thier weight in cash. A huge dead lipo pack would be a disaster.

With a pack that size your ass will be done from riding before you get to the bottom of that pack. I comfortably did 35 miles with 15AH so you should good for atleast 70 miles at 25-30mph

Your pack #1 - 18S4P from 6S 8AH Zippy Lipos reminds me of my battery packs. Here's what I would do with this, which is what I'm planning to do with my similar setup:

Split it into two packs 18S2P. Call one the "main" pack and the other the "auxiliary" pack. (In my case the "main" is Turnigy 15AH and the Aux is Zippy 8AH maybe 16AH later).

Each pack has three each Methods LVC/HVC boards. They combine the balance leads.

Each pack has the appropriate gauge serial/parallel wiring (in my case to an SB50 or PowerPole 75 for the output, and uses bullet connectors as needed to connect to the packs). It can be hardwired since it is not required to reconfigure it.

The packs are NOT reconfigured for charging/draining. TWO charging options are provided, one for bulk and one for balance charging.

Each pack has a PCBoard (or 3 little PCBoards) for Balance Charging with a DB9F and PowerPole 30 for each 6S section (25V) (3 total) to use any common 6S RC Charger. It takes three charge cycles with one charger, or three independent chargers with a separate 12V supply for each to charge this way. Balance charging is done some of the time, bulk the rest of the time. Experience will guide how often balance charging is required.

A celllog or cell voltage monitor with a DB9M plug on it is handy for checking cell voltages or doing some balancing in the field.

Each pack ALSO has a connector for bulk charging (75V) from a PCBoard that has several functions - LVC clamps the throttle (Magura resistive or Hall type), HVC shuts off the bulk charging input, and a quad parallel FET soft power remote control power switch controls the discharge path and avoids the sparks of connection and the leaks of leaving plugged in.

I plan to set this up with a keyswitch and one or two toggle switches so I can power the controller from either battery bank, or both.

The two packs are "independent", they can be charged, transported, discharged separately. For the Yuba I might make them in flat aluminum housings that can easily be strapped down or removed as needed, sturdy enough to step on or put other items on. On my mountain bike the Main will go in the triangle, and the auxiliary will go in the trunk when needed so I won't carry that weight all the time.

The bulk chargers should be self regulated and self shutoff. The HVC is only for stopping the charge if the imbalance hits the 4.28V point the chips are set for, a safety net. I use the BMSBattery bulk chargers. Ideally one for each bank.

What he said.

Thanks Alan. If I get all that stuff you can sure bet on my driving across the Bay to spend a Saturday with you building this to your spec.

I'll be making a shopping list to confirm I have everything I need. Thanks so much for your help.

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I have the most complicated PCB almost ready to have made. I am fiddling with details and waiting for some info from Methods to insure integration compatibility.

I need to make an updated version of my DB9 boards to match Methods LVC/HVC. Those are simple boards to lay out. The ones on my bike (that you saw) have extra paralleling jacks that aren't needed with Methods boards doing that (up to 7P). So need to trim those down to just a single socket.

I need to make a system diagram for this. I have something close, it needs some updating.

I'm making one right now that will do 10S/12S to a DB15 connector for a 10S/12S balancing charger. That one is just about done.

Ebike Master Switch board



Ignore the top 1/3 of this board, that is for 10S/12S setups. A similar one for 6S will be used, three times, to get to 18S.

The bottom 2/3 of this board (to be cut apart) contains the soft-on power control switch for one battery bank. It can handle up to 24 FET controller power levels if all four TO220 FETs are installed.

The Methods HVC/LVC cable plugs directly in, and a remote key or switch connects to control the power, and the throttle is routed in and out on the way to the controller. Toward the bottom Q5 controls the bulk charge shutoff when any cell hits HVC (the bulk charger should shut itself off normally when charge is complete, this is a backup safety cell overvoltage protection, not normal charge shutoff). The LVC clamps the throttle down (again, the CA or controller should shut down on pack overall voltage, this is for cell protection in case the pack gets unbalanced). This is better than cycling main power and rebooting the motor controller and cycle analyst if present.

Bought a new Yuba Mundo v4 today (upgrading the v2) and my new Crystalyte 5404 is in the queue. Now it's time to get my power ordered.

I'm going to itemize the above and get some final approval on the necessities. Again, I appreciate everyone's help.

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I priced 12 Zippy 8Ah 6S packs at just shy of $1100 shipped (from HK USA warehouse, as Luke recommends to avoid duds).

Other items on my list:
* Method's LVC/HVC boards - $50/each (I have a PM out to Methods to see if there's a way to only use 3 with my configuration)
* Alan's master switch boards (another PM sent to Alan for pricing and better understand the benefit to my planned rig)
* celllog - $28
* 6S balance RC charger (any particular model you recommend? And if I'm only doing this once a month do I need more than one?)
* BMSBattery 75v bulk charger (any particular model you recommend) - This one is only $45 and is 72V4A. But there are also 6A, 10A, 13A and 16A models. I expect I'd need two (one for each side of the bike).

Already have in hand or on order:
* x5404
* Lyen 18fet controller
* CA
* Yuba Mundo v4
* Running boards (only one set so far, I'll need to get a second set to put on top of the batteries, plus something on the sides to keep out dirt, water, etc. Any tips for that?)
* Kiwi's custom Yuba Mundo v4 torque arms

It looks like 6 packs per side only fit if I lay them on the 52mm side, which increases the middle height of the running boards from 52mm to 69mm. Bummer. That's a thick running board at 20mm (10mm per board) + 69mm of LiPo in between.

Makes me consider running just 3 per side and having an extra 18S2P for boosters when I want to do a distance ride (a la IceCube's harness strategy).

One configuration I've been looking at is based on these SeaHorse cases:

http://www.seahorse300cases.com/?caseclub=on

About 11x10x5 inches on the outside and 9.6x7.4x4 inches inside. Waterproof and sealed and a little room inside for electronics and connectors.

I have not verified it yet, but I have a plan for 18S 15AH pack to fit in that case. One for each side would be 30AH. Pretty close to the 18S4P Zippy capacity of 32AH.

Another housing possibility is the PVC downspout material.

Too many choices.

Yes, that would resemble Kiwi's awesome version:



I like it, but I was hoping for something hides the batteries a bit more. Right now I put them in my panniers. But they sort of flop around a bit.

Another hurdle discovered... How do I fix a flat?

My hunch is that I'll need to remove the running boards altogether when that unfortunate event happens. Looks like I'll be going tubeless with Stans from the very start.



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